Josie and Kelton 4: Please Leave the Catholics Alone and Now Gestating

[formergothardite]

12 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

One thing I think is different is that conservative Christians do not have a cult-like approach to only associating with other conservative Christians, almost 100% avoiding "worldly" things, crippling their children's education, or otherwise controlling/sheltering their children's development inside such a small bubble. They may still have awful beliefs and political affiliations, but their children are not trapped in their world. 

Do you view people like Sonny Perdue as Conservative Christian or a Fundie? He doesn't appear to super restrict his children's development or 100% avoid worldly things, yet he worships Gothard and uses IBLP teachings in making political decisions. 

It seems to me that there is often a very, very narrow line between someone who is a fundamentalist Christian and someone who is a conservative christian. And conservative Christians can do a whole lot of damage to our country. Most of them seem to vote against women's rights, gay rights, protections for the climate, social protections, and, at least in NC, they helped bring back restrictive voting laws. 

[Tangy Bee]

I use to think that the Vision Forum fundies were a little more fancy and educated. Then I recall the Mortons and Roberts are from the Vision Forum crowd. Wierd to see that the Roberts crossed paths with the Bates family years ago and now they are all GREAT friends. Fundie mixing can be interesting sometimes.

[rebeccawriter01]

On 2/2/2019 at 2:56 PM, formergothardite said:

What signs have the shown that they don't share Taliban Dan's horrific beliefs?

~They go campaign for him

~They let him use their image and the image of their children to get elected.

~They go happily visit his office in Washington and post about it. 

~They have never at any point said or did anything to say they disagree with him. 

What signs are there that she no longer shares the awful, awful beliefs that Taliban Dan pushes? Again, people like Sonny Perdue are Gothard followers and they dress in normal, Perdue attends Halloween events and I'm not even sure he homeschooled, yet he talked about using Gothard teachings while he was Governor. Do you think Perdue isn't fundie?

So I'm just confused why people think Alyssa didn't just become the Webster sort of IBLP fundie? 

 

 

I can confirm your observations of Perdue. I was a reporter while he was governor (always got my name wrong). He has some scary beliefs that should have disqualified him, but he was embraced by the people of Georgia. He led prayers on the steps of the legislative building to bring an end to the drought. He has spoken at ATI events and brought in speakers from IBLP to teach financial strategies to people at the state offices and visitors from other countries. I can also say that a number of men who I once worked with and were hired by him suddenly started supporting ATI and IBLP. 

While I don't know that he homeschooled his own children, he expanded the practice in Georgia by championing several laws. Previously, homeschooling was not allowed with tutors or others teaching. It had to be a parent or a legal guardian who did the teaching. He did a lot of this under the guise of expanding school choice. 

He's not the first governor in Georgia to have these beliefs. We tend to attract these guys. 

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

He has some scary beliefs that should have disqualified him, but he was embraced by the people of Georgia.

It really is scary that he keeps advancing in his political career despite having such awful beliefs. On the surface he doesn't look like a fundie, but he is. He is a fundie who has political power, just like Taliban Dan. 

[WhoompThereItIs]

On 2/2/2019 at 1:08 PM, formergothardite said:

Sonny Perdue, the current Secretary of Agriculture is a Gothard follower and his family is far from frumpers. Sonny says that outside the Bible, the teachings of Gothard influence his decisions the most. 

Sad to say I didn't put two and two together. I went to school with a couple of his younger cousins (mainstream public schools), and according to their facebook posts, they unfortunately think similarly. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by WhoompThereItIs

[bal maiden]

I think there is a risk of making the definition of ‘fundamentalist’ so broad that it is essentially rendered meaningless, and, therefore, useless. If we start calling all conservative Christians ‘fundies’, then how does the use of the term help our understanding, and our discernment of what is going on, if it encompasses such a range?

[formergothardite]

Risk of narrowing it down to a pretty small list to describe fundies is that you will then make it seems like people like Sonny Perdue, the Green family(Hobby Lobby owners who are deeply entwined with Gothard and several other fundies), Taliban Dan, and even Pence aren't fundie. 

It seems like people tend to view conservative Christians as less harmful than the frumper loving fundies, but if we just look at the state of America it is obvious conservative Christians have caused a vast amount of harm mainly due to their religious beliefs. I don't really understand why, if someone is oppressing others, hurting others and taking away rights of others based on their religion, why they wouldn't be considered a fundamentalist. 

[Palimpsest]

19 hours ago, bal maiden said:

I think there is a risk of making the definition of ‘fundamentalist’ so broad that it is essentially rendered meaningless, and, therefore, useless. If we start calling all conservative Christians ‘fundies’, then how does the use of the term help our understanding, and our discernment of what is going on, if it encompasses such a range?

I think there is a real risk of defining "fundamentalist" so narrowly that it is essentially restricted to Christian skirts-only, homeschooling-only, and Quiverfull-only people.  That is far too narrow, as plenty of self-identified "Christian Fundamentalists" do not practice those particular restrictions.

I vastly prefer the OED definition:

Quote

fun·da·men·tal·ist /ˌfəndəˈmen(t)ələst/  noun

A person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion:  "religious fundamentalists"

 

And, yes, that definition will include a large number of "evangelical" or "conservative" Christian types who want to bash us over the head with cherry picked Bible quotes to advance their "Christian" and often extremely Right Wing agenda in the US.

Sorry about that.

That said, the Christian Fundamentalist Movement is a real thing.  Started in the early 1900s, it is primarily Protestant, includes many denominations, and follows the "Fundamentals."  It was a subset of Protestant "evangelical" Christianity. 

However, some people (not only me) argue that today "evangelical" Christian and "fundamentalist" Christian are practically synonymous.  It is a continuum, as we have discussed here before, but Fundamental beliefs have invaded evangelical Christianity to a frightening extent.

I mean where would you put Bible literalists and all around arseholes like Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, John Piper, C.J. Mahaney, Bill Hybels, and that ilk?  They would identify as "evangelical."  Mostly because it sounds better, IMO.

Would Bob Jones University be off-limits for discussion here because it isn't "Fundie?"  It calls itself "evangelical and conservative" but is KJV only, has unbelievably restrictive codes of conduct, and tells victims of rape to repent. 

I like the terms "Fungelical" or "pretty damn Fundie" myself.  

Edited February 7, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Pecansforeveryone]

I tend to use fundiegelical pretty liberally myself. The uncomfortable truth is fundamentalism is a very real part of the foundation and since Trump now the marketing and loudest voices of conservative Christianity. The vast majority of conservative churches don't recognize same-sex marriage and preach homosexuality is a terrible sin. That includes the majority of mega-churches and all these proliferating nondenominational "Christian/Bible" churches. It's a very painful, sad reality that we do have to grapple with and combat. 

[nelliebelle1197]

10 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Risk of narrowing it down to a pretty small list to describe fundies is that you will then make it seems like people like Sonny Perdue, the Green family(Hobby Lobby owners who are deeply entwined with Gothard and several other fundies), Taliban Dan, and even Pence aren't fundie. 

It seems like people tend to view conservative Christians as less harmful than the frumper loving fundies, but if we just look at the state of America it is obvious conservative Christians have caused a vast amount of harm mainly due to their religious beliefs. I don't really understand why, if someone is oppressing others, hurting others and taking away rights of others based on their religion, why they wouldn't be considered a fundamentalist. 

And many of those people believe in a literal interpretation of the christian bible, so there's that.

6 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I

Would Bob Jones University be off-limits for discussion here because it isn't "Fundie?"  It calls itself "evangelical and conservative" but is KJV only, has unbelievably restrictive codes of conduct, and tells victims of rape to repent. 

I like the terms "Fungelical" or "pretty damn Fundie" myself.  

Bob Jones spawned ALL the teachers in my super fundie Christian school....

[TatiFish9]

Fundementalism represents extremism within defined groups. That means fundies are supposedly even more restrictive than the already strict group of conservatives.

There is a distinct, albiet marginal, difference between the Christian approaches.

Cheat sheet:

Fundie - "If you drink and by drink, we mean sip - alcohol, you're going to hell."

 Conservative- "If you drink, do it sparingly. God does not like drunkedness."

Contemporary- "If you drink, A. do it in moderation B. make sure it looks cool enough to attract the younger generations to our church. Text message reminder: God does not like drunkedness."

Progressives- " Go ahead and ddriinkkk. Jesus drank."

~~~~~~~~~~

Fundies- "Dress modest or you will not be allowed in this church until you see it our way. In the mean time, you're going to hell."

Conservatives - "Modest dress is best practice. If you get a little saucy, keep it to a minimum, in appropriate settings."

Contemporary- "Dress modest or not. Just make sure we remain relevent to the current generation of lost souls."

Progressives- "Jesus said come as you are. Make sure you always do that, so long as your heart is dressed right."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fundies - " Only the pure will inherit heaven. Therefore, no sex before marriage or your whore ass is going to hell. Oops! We dont use profane language ever-when-people-are-watching. Forgive us, on your way to hell."

Conservatives - "No sex before marriage. But if you do, be discrete, repent and get to that altar, asap."

Contemporary- "Limited dating restrictions. Text message reminder: Sex is best within marriage."

Progressives: "What would Jesus do?"

Naturally, there will be exceptions to the rule, difficult to classify from afars and contradictions that confuse. But really, do they represent the whole of it? 

[TeaELSee]

I was surprised that Josie and Kelton wanted to rent a small 1 bedroom apartment.  Josie also stressed she was looking forward to a quieter and cleaner place.

 

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Dress modest or you will not be allowed in this church until you see it our way. In the mean time, you're going to hell."

So you don't consider Sonny Perdue or Alfred(Gothard's last defender) fundies? What about the Green family? They are also deeply involved with IBLP/Gothard and several other extreme groups. These people sure as hell aren't acting like this. 

10 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Fundie - "If you drink and by drink, we mean sip - alcohol, you're going to hell."

So you don't consider the Sproul family as fundies? Have you gone to a Quiverfull of Snark and read the threads to get a general idea about this fundie family that drinks? What about Remnant Fellowship where drinking is a big thing? Have you read the survivor stories of former members? If you haven't, how can you then maintain that fundies wouldn't drink if you haven't explored the variety of fundies that we discuss and read about the people who finally escaped?

10 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Only the pure will inherit heaven. Therefore, no sex before marriage or your whore ass is going to hell. Oops! We dont use profane language ever-when-people-are-watching. Forgive us, on your way to hell."

Not even Gothard taught this. So I suppose he isn't a fundie according to your standards? Rejecting the idea of God is the only thing that would doom you to hell, everything else could be forgiven if you repented. So if you had sex before marriage, you repent. There was always a lot of talk even in my IFB church that even the man after God's own heart, David, sinned big time and was forgiven. 

You have limited what a fundie is to the point that not even Bill Gothard is a fundie, perhaps you need to go read a hell of a lot more threads to get a better idea of the diversity out there in fundamental/conservative beliefs. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by formergothardite

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Fundementalism represents extremism within defined groups. That means fundies are supposedly even more restrictive than the already strict group of conservatives.

There is a distinct, albiet marginal, difference between the Christian approaches.

Cheat sheet:

Fundie - "If you drink and by drink, we mean sip - alcohol, you're going to hell."

 Conservative- "If you drink, do it sparingly. God does not like drunkedness."

Contemporary- "If you drink, A. do it in moderation B. make sure it looks cool enough to attract the younger generations to our church. Text message reminder: God does not like drunkedness."

Progressives- " Go ahead and ddriinkkk. Jesus drank."

~~~~~~~~~~

Fundies- "Dress modest or you will not be allowed in this church until you see it our way. In the mean time, you're going to hell."

Conservatives - "Modest dress is best practice. If you get a little saucy, keep it to a minimum, in appropriate settings."

Contemporary- "Dress modest or not. Just make sure we remain relevent to the current generation of lost souls."

Progressives- "Jesus said come as you are. Make sure you always do that, so long as your heart is dressed right."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fundies - " Only the pure will inherit heaven. Therefore, no sex before marriage or your whore ass is going to hell. Oops! We dont use profane language ever-when-people-are-watching. Forgive us, on your way to hell."

Conservatives - "No sex before marriage. But if you do, be discrete, repent and get to that altar, asap."

Contemporary- "Limited dating restrictions. Text message reminder: Sex is best within marriage."

Progressives: "What would Jesus do?"

Naturally, there will be exceptions to the rule, difficult to classify from afars and contradictions that confuse. But really, do they represent the whole of it? 

We aren’t dividing up junior high girls into Pom, cheer, drill team, and pep squad each with clearly definied obligations and uniforms here.

if you think billions of Christians world wide with an infinite number of nuanced beliefs within churches and individuals are so cleanly compartmentalized then I’m not sure a productive discussion can be had as that’s pure fiction.

 

[rebeccawriter01]

There is a subtle difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists. Many fall into both categories.  While not all evangelicals are fundamentalists, all Christian fundamentalists tend to be evangelical. A few of the key ways:

Interpretation or literal reading of the Bible - evangelicals can and sometimes do accept that there is metaphor and poetic license in the Bible. They are not dead set on the idea of creationism or dinosaurs roaming the earth with man. They don't view the Flintstones as a documentary. Fundamentalists may pick and choose, but they are quite literal. If the Bible says jump four times before pooping, they jump four times. 

Conversion - Fundamentalists can give you a day and a time of saving or conversion. I was saved on _______________ and accepted Jesus. Evangelicals who are not fundies tend to view this as a process of opening themselves to the idea, practicing, and then acceptance. They still might know a full date of baptism or dedication, but that's not all the story. 

Jesus as a man - Fundamentalists tend to have a fairly narrow, specific, very strict view of who Jesus was. Evangelicals have a somewhat broader interpretation of who Jesus was.

Separatist agenda. Fundamentalist Christians tend to hold themselves separate from others, including other Christians. They require that of themselves and others. Evangelicals, if only on the surface, will cooperate and attempt to work together to bring others to Jesus. Fundamentalists won't do that because they see it as being wrong to associate in religious terms with people with whom they don't have complete agreement. I guess they think it will rub off on them or something.   

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

if you think billions of Christians world wide with an infinite number of nuanced beliefs within churches and individuals are so cleanly compartmentalized then I’m not sure a productive discussion can be had as that’s pure fiction.

Well, if we took that load of utter codswallop as a correct definition of Fundamentalist,  FJ could close down both the Duggar and Bates subforums immediately.  Neither family is at all Fundie per @TatiFish9.  FJ doesn't need to host the discussion.  Sorry, everyone.  Nothing to see here, they are just conservative Christians.  

And we might as well shut down FJ completely, because neither are Bill Gothard, most Independent Fundamental Baptists, the former Vision Forum, Doug Wilson and CREC, J.Rod, the Maxwells, Pearls, Smiths and Mortons, Bro. Gary Hawkins really Fundie. 

And I even have my doubts about John Shrader fitting that narrow a definition of Fundamentalist.  

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Well, if we took that load of utter codswallop as a correct definition of Fundamentalist,  FJ could close down both the Duggar and Bates subforums immediately.  Neither family is at all Fundie per @TatiFish9.  FJ doesn't need to host the discussion.  Sorry, everyone.  Nothing to see here, they are just conservative Christians.  

And we might as well shut down FJ completely, because neither are Bill Gothard, most Independent Fundamental Baptists, the former Vision Forum, Doug Wilson and CREC, J.Rod, the Maxwells, Pearls, Smiths and Mortons, Bro. Gary Hawkins really Fundie. 

And I even have my doubts about John Shrader fitting that narrow a definition of Fundamentalist.  

 

:::eyes glazed over as I stare dreamily into the ether of an FJ sans Bates and Duggars:::

and there is no mention of airplane grifting in the Bible so yep, ol’ John is just another run of the mill conservative mainstream Christian.

who is going to tell Esther’s poor uterus sonit can get some rest?

[singsingsing]

34 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

There is a subtle difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists. Many fall into both categories.  While not all evangelicals are fundamentalists, all Christian fundamentalists tend to be evangelical. A few of the key ways:

Interpretation or literal reading of the Bible - evangelicals can and sometimes do accept that there is metaphor and poetic license in the Bible. They are not dead set on the idea of creationism or dinosaurs roaming the earth with man. They don't view the Flintstones as a documentary. Fundamentalists may pick and choose, but they are quite literal. If the Bible says jump four times before pooping, they jump four times. 

Conversion - Fundamentalists can give you a day and a time of saving or conversion. I was saved on _______________ and accepted Jesus. Evangelicals who are not fundies tend to view this as a process of opening themselves to the idea, practicing, and then acceptance. They still might know a full date of baptism or dedication, but that's not all the story. 

Jesus as a man - Fundamentalists tend to have a fairly narrow, specific, very strict view of who Jesus was. Evangelicals have a somewhat broader interpretation of who Jesus was.

Separatist agenda. Fundamentalist Christians tend to hold themselves separate from others, including other Christians. They require that of themselves and others. Evangelicals, if only on the surface, will cooperate and attempt to work together to bring others to Jesus. Fundamentalists won't do that because they see it as being wrong to associate in religious terms with people with whom they don't have complete agreement. I guess they think it will rub off on them or something.   

I don’t think this is an accurate picture of the differences between fundies and evangelicals either, to be honest. There are plenty of fundie Christians who are not evangelical (the Amish, fundie Catholics, The FLDS...), and I’ve know plenty of moderate to liberal Christians who could give you the date and time they got saved.

[Pecansforeveryone]

Jill Rodriguez considers herself a "modest" Christian woman. Jill, flipping Rodriguez of the painted face, bleached hair, and skin tight clothes. I have known Conservative to Fundie-light Christians who wore strapless, mini-cocktail dresses and bikinis. Yes, hand to Rufus, they sincerely believed their strapless mini-dresses and bikinis were "modest." I guess it's all "sanctified" and "redeemed" if you are a special snowflake for Jesus. 

[rebeccawriter01]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I don’t think this is an accurate picture of the differences between fundies and evangelicals either, to be honest. There are plenty of fundie Christians who are not evangelical (the Amish, fundie Catholics, The FLDS...), and I’ve know plenty of moderate to liberal Christians who could give you the date and time they got saved.

1

Take it or leave it. Those are from the working definitions from my academic studies on communication within fundamentalists and evangelicals. These are typical differences. In terms of non-evangelical fundies, one can argue that there is an evangelical side to the ones you listed. Perhaps not as loud, but they are still very much involved in retention if not recruitment. 

[TatiFish9]

@rebeccawriter01 I agree. I also believe fundie is more of an approach than a specific denomination, because often with in denoms you will have various churches that range in their interpretation and display of denominational rules.

:::edit delete::: wrong thread

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I'm interested that no one (?) here has mentioned "leave family size up to God" as a typical fundamentalist but not necessarily evangelical belief. I realize there are fundamentalists who limit family size but not very many that we follow. This has the advantage of being true for Amish and Old Older Mennonites (as far as I know), who are probably fundamentalist but don't really evangelize.

Although fundamentalists like to think they're taking the Bible literally, a lot of their legalistic practices are indirectly related to the bible, at best. (The bible doesn't have specific modesty regulations, or say that birth control is a sin or alcohol is bad, for example.) Maybe we should call them legalists?

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

And I even have my doubts about John Shrader fitting that narrow a definition of Fundamentalis

He doesn't. I am pretty sure that despite his insane beliefs, not even he is so extreme that he would say that about sex before marriage. And he while he pushed "modest" dress, he doesn't seem to kick out people who show up not dressed to his standards. 

When the definition of fundie is so limited that virtually no one we discuss qualifies, then it isn't an accurate view of the lives of fundamentalist. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Take it or leave it. Those are from the working definitions from my academic studies on communication within fundamentalists and evangelicals. These are typical differences. In terms of non-evangelical fundies, one can argue that there is an evangelical side to the ones you listed. Perhaps not as loud, but they are still very much involved in retention if not recruitment. 

If you’re going to reference academic studies to bolster your argument you should site your sources.

Without other people being able to vet sources its  just opinion.

[nolongerIFBx]

On 2/8/2019 at 11:53 AM, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I'm interested that no one (?) here has mentioned "leave family size up to God" as a typical fundamentalist but not necessarily evangelical belief. I realize there are fundamentalists who limit family size but not very many that we follow. This has the advantage of being true for Amish and Old Older Mennonites (as far as I know), who are probably fundamentalist but don't really evangelize.

Although fundamentalists like to think they're taking the Bible literally, a lot of their legalistic practices are indirectly related to the bible, at best. (The bible doesn't have specific modesty regulations, or say that birth control is a sin or alcohol is bad, for example.) Maybe we should call them legalists?

Legalism is adding other requirements to a) salvation (is it just belief in Jesus or do you also have to be a good person, tithe, go to church, take communion, confess, etc.) or b) earn God's love/favor (does He love/have more delight in you more if you are a good person, tithe, go to church, take communion, confess, etc.). In my fundiest or fundy days, I never believed that I had to do anything more than realize that I needed a Savior and accept Jesus as my Savior. I did, however, think that I could earn God's continued love and favor by being the best fundie that I could. One pastor put it this way- "All Christians are going to heaven but IFB are going first class." as well as that only IFBs would sit at the table at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (https://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-supper-Lamb.html). Everyone else would just be a guest.  That is legalism. So while I still meet the definition of fundie, I'm not (I hope) a legalist. I don't think legalist could contain the definitions of fundie here unless someone (like PP or John Schrader) literaly believe that you cannot go to heaven unless you believe the literal interpretation of the Bible, a 7-day creation, abortion is murder, marriage should be between opposite sexes, etc. Most we call fundies would say that those things were true but not that agreement with them is a requirement of salvation.

Edited February 11, 2019 by nolongerIFBx