Fundies, Conservatives, Race, and Obama

[nausicaa]

On 5/8/2016 at 8:56 PM, JesusCampSongs said:

All the fundies I know IRL were all about Carson at the beginning of the primaries. 

Me too. Which is odd, cause most conservative evangelicals I know have a big issue with Seventh-Day Adventists. 

[Black Aliss]

On 5/8/2016 at 9:50 AM, nausicaa said:

Me too. Which is odd, cause most conservative evangelicals I know have a big issue with Seventh-Day Adventists. 

 

On 5/8/2016 at 5:56 PM, JesusCampSongs said:

All the fundies I know IRL were all about Carson at the beginning of the primaries. 

People were for Carson because that proved they weren't racist. Also, Ben Carson was their kind of negro--someone they could feel superior to.

Steve wouldn't be able to support Huckabee because there's a man who clearly cannot control his appetites.

[Emilycharlotte]

Are you implying that conservatives did not vote for Obama because he is African-American? Because we are all racists? Because I hear this from people, and I  can't understand how anyone actually believes something like that. 

It's just really, really offensive when people state racism as the only possible reason anyone could have had for voting against President Obama.  It's also ridiculous.  Conservatives, as you would expect, do usually vote for other conservatives rather than for liberals.  Because they typically agree more with other conservatives on the issues, which is why they identify as conservatives to begin with. I'm pretty sure it works that way with liberals, too.

The statement about conservatives and Ben Carson is also offensive on a couple of levels, but I have to go to work.  

Look, I know that many or most of the people here are liberals, as are most of the people where I live and where I work. I'm not big on arguing politics and I have no problem with people who disagree with me (if I did, I'd be lonely!). But this conservative=racist crap is something I have to speak up about, in-person and online.  

 

[Black Aliss]

52 minutes ago, Emilycharlotte said:

Are you implying that conservatives did not vote for Obama because he is African-American? Because we are all racists? Because I hear this from people, and I  can't understand how anyone actually believes something like that. 

It's just really, really offensive when people state racism as the only possible reason anyone could have had for voting against President Obama.  It's also ridiculous.  Conservatives, as you would expect, do usually vote for other conservatives rather than for liberals.  Because they typically agree more with other conservatives on the issues, which is why they identify as conservatives to begin with. I'm pretty sure it works that way with liberals, too.

The statement about conservatives and Ben Carson is also offensive on a couple of levels, but I have to go to work.  

Look, I know that many or most of the people here are liberals, as are most of the people where I live and where I work. I'm not big on arguing politics and I have no problem with people who disagree with me (if I did, I'd be lonely!). But this conservative=racist crap is something I have to speak up about, in-person and online.  

 

Not all conservatives were for Carson. And plenty of conservatives did not vote for Obama because he is African-American. All of the other generalizations you state came straight from inside your own head. Get over yourself.

[Emilycharlotte]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

...Get over yourself.

Fair enough.  I guess I do sound kind of pompous.  Also, I don't usually jump into other people's conversations and throw hissy fits. I'm sorry about that.

I don't think I misunderstood you, and I don't know what you think I made up out of my head, but whatever.  I think you are wrong, you think I'm wrong and need to get over myself....The End. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Granwych]

13 hours ago, Emilycharlotte said:

Are you implying that conservatives did not vote for Obama because he is African-American? Because we are all racists? Because I hear this from people, and I  can't understand how anyone actually believes something like that. 

It's just really, really offensive when people state racism as the only possible reason anyone could have had for voting against President Obama.  It's also ridiculous.  Conservatives, as you would expect, do usually vote for other conservatives rather than for liberals.  Because they typically agree more with other conservatives on the issues, which is why they identify as conservatives to begin with. I'm pretty sure it works that way with liberals, too.

The statement about conservatives and Ben Carson is also offensive on a couple of levels, but I have to go to work.  

Look, I know that many or most of the people here are liberals, as are most of the people where I live and where I work. I'm not big on arguing politics and I have no problem with people who disagree with me (if I did, I'd be lonely!). But this conservative=racist crap is something I have to speak up about, in-person and online.  

 

I only have first-hand knowledge of 2 local conservative/fundie light Baptist churches and their views.  Neither has any African American members. Neither solicits or is particularly welcoming of any.  It's a miniscule sample, but it's all I've got.

I think that it's possible fundies were all for Ben Carson because, deep down, they really didn't think he could win.   They'd be covertly relieved while righteously stating, "But we voted for him!"

I am married into a large, very racially, culturally, and politically diverse family.  It's been, um, interesting, and quite easy to raise any sort of ruckus.

[HoneyBunny]

23 hours ago, Emilycharlotte said:

Are you implying that conservatives did not vote for Obama because he is African-American? Because we are all racists? Because I hear this from people, and I  can't understand how anyone actually believes something like that. 

It's just really, really offensive when people state racism as the only possible reason anyone could have had for voting against President Obama.  It's also ridiculous.  Conservatives, as you would expect, do usually vote for other conservatives rather than for liberals.  Because they typically agree more with other conservatives on the issues, which is why they identify as conservatives to begin with. I'm pretty sure it works that way with liberals, too.

The statement about conservatives and Ben Carson is also offensive on a couple of levels, but I have to go to work.  

Look, I know that many or most of the people here are liberals, as are most of the people where I live and where I work. I'm not big on arguing politics and I have no problem with people who disagree with me (if I did, I'd be lonely!). But this conservative=racist crap is something I have to speak up about, in-person and online.  

 

I have to speak up, too, about conservatives and race. I was and remain convinced that the ONLY reason for the Tea Party's existence is because Obama was African American. Funny how Bush ran up the deficit, spending wildly on multiple front, unwinnable wars and abandoning constitutional rights with glee and there was no Tea Party. Suddenly, with the election of our first non-white president, we have Tea Partiers and demonstrations and ridiculous outrage about the national debt. The hypocrisy (and stupidity) is stunning. 

[Emilycharlotte]

I'm not a fan of the Tea Party, but the inconsistency you are pointing out doesn't exist.  Conservatives, especially the more extreme ones, traditionally support spending on the military and defense while freaking out about nationalized healthcare and increased taxes. You can disagree with their beliefs, but there is nothing hypocritical about it. It was the fear of Obama's policies that led to creation of the Tea Party, not the color of his skin, and there is no supportable reason to think otherwise.  

Believing that everyone with different political beliefs than you is a horrible, vile person, and unfairly labeling them as racists--- while claiming to espouse tolerance and fairness---that is the height of hypocrisy.  

 

[Mama Mia]

My personal belief is that it is virtually impossible to untangle the origins/growth of the tea party, volatile hatred of Obama and how much of that is/is not due to racism --- and the concurrent advent of social media. 

Social media draws  like minded people together. It feeds on Everyone's conceptions and prejudices ( and I'm using " prejudices" in the broadest sense) . Are there people who are against Obama because they are racist? Of course. But their views wouldn't be as magnified if it wasn't for social media. Would there be people who dislike his policies regardless of race? Of course. But, IMHO, the sheer amplified, overly dramatic hatred of all things Obama wouldn't exist without the advent of social media AND the racial issue. The question that can't be determined is how much one has influenced the other.

[Witherwings]

I have a long list of issues I have with Obama, none of which remotely relate to race. I have conversations about this with friends from all different views, and the conversation is always about ideology and policy. I realize I am narrowing this down to who I interact with, but my sampling results from living in different regions of the country and globe often with people who come from different places. Maybe I lucky in that aspect and moving around makes people more aware and less hateful. I don't know.

However, entangling all criticism of Obama with racism is absurd and deflecting from conversation about Obama's ideology and policies. Even character. 

[FloraKitty35]

The Sensibly Speaking podcast had an Claire Conner on today as a guest.  She wrote an excellent book called Wrapped in the Flag.  She grew up in the John Birch Society, her father was a prominent Bircher.

Here are the links to her blog and to the Sensibly Speaking podcast.

http://claireconner.com/

 

[crawfishgirl]

As a liberal who lives in Texas, I am around many conservatives through work, friendships, etc.  Though I'm sure there are some conservatives who are also racists, I don't think that they all dislike Obama just due to his ethnicity.  I remember most of them making the same negative comments about Bill Clinton in the 90's, so I think much of it is about ideology and politics.  

[Witherwings]

It is a bit mind-boggling when anyone says "republicans/conservatives" are racist. Of course some are, but that doesn't mean all are. When a democrat makes a racist remark, I don't jump and shout that all democrats are racist. That would be lumping a group of people together and assuming they all believe the same exact thing. 

Some democrats/liberals can be racist and homophobic too. 

Let's us Joe Biden (circa. Feb 2007) as an example:

Quote

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."

This was all written off as nothing more than a "gaffe". 

Or Hillary Clinton's "lame attempt at humor" 

Quote

“I love this quote. It’s from Mahatma Gandhi. He ran a gas station down in St. Louis for a couple of years. Mr. Gandhi, do you still go to the gas station? A lot of wisdom comes out of that gas station” 

Be it gaffes, lame attempts at humor, or things taken out of context, these things were said. Not all republicans are racist and not all racists are republican. 

[Childless]

Are all conservatives racist?  No.  Is any one who disagrees with Obama racist?  No.  Is there a good size contingent of racists in the conservative movement.  Yes.  If there weren't, all that birther nonsense wouldn't have existed.  Not to mention the blatant racism I see nearly every day (Michelle Obama being compared to a monkey, people speculating that Malia Obama got into Harvard based on race rather than her own accomplishments, etc.).

And I call bullshit on the Bush thing.  It wasn't just the military he spent money on.  The creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security was huge government bloat that did nothing to make this country safer and only succeeded in adding yet another layer of red tape our security infrastructure could ill afford.  I have yet to hear conservatives (who claim to support small and limited government) call Bush out on this.

[Mercer]

I don't think all criticism of Obama is racist... but I definitely think some of it is. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with his policies or his politics, but frankly I've heard a lot of very racially charged statements being made too.

[Witherwings]

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

I don't think all criticism of Obama is racist... but I definitely think some of it is. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with his policies or his politics, but frankly I've heard a lot of very racially charged statements being made too.

The racially charged statements are not limited to conservatives.  When criticizing Obama, I believe a majority of the criticism stems from actual policies, etc. rather than racism. 

[ShepherdontheRock]

Honestly, I think it's impossible to disentangle Obama's race completely from the criticism the Obamas have gotten...

And I don't think it's purely a coincidence that conservatives demographically tend to be white...

Do I think all conservatives are racist KKK members? Of course not. But I do think there's systemic racism and also a lot of bias that these people are unaware of and don't want to admit to. I think even the most anti-racist Black Lives Matter Africana people have internalized racism to some degree; I took a class in Africana studies and the (youngish, black) professor admitted that even he feels suspicious walking past young tall black men in hoodies on the street.

So, while I agree it's unfair for people to generalize all conservatives as super duper KKK racist, I definitely think there's a lot of failure to recognize privilege going on as well. And I think before you're like "how dare you call me racist[sexist, homophobic, etc]" maybe you should do some self examination for your own biases...

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Say what you want, the fact is that Trump is the Gop's candidate. He is a known racist. And his supporters like to come up with this sort of thing.

I think that the majority of conservatives aren't racist assholes, but maybe they should try to get a firmer grip on the party that should represent their point of view.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3590830/Fury-racist-cartoon-comparing-butch-masculine-Michelle-Obama-pageant-ready-Melania-Trump.html

[Witherwings]

1 hour ago, ShepherdontheRock said:

Honestly, I think it's impossible to disentangle Obama's race completely from the criticism the Obamas have gotten...

When talking about ideology and policy, I am not understanding what Obama's race has to do with criticism. Could you please give me an example of this? I am not saying there are not individuals who dislike Obama because of his race, but how does being critical of his policies mean race is part of the criticism?

1 hour ago, ShepherdontheRock said:

And I don't think it's purely a coincidence that conservatives demographically tend to be white...

I don't either. I also don't think racism is the singular reasoning. Ideology does come into play here, but we are now hitting systemic issues that are really tough issues. Issues that nobody seems to want to tackle. I am not saying this is a good thing. It sucks. Yet, in comparison to issues both parties ranked as "above average importance" I think it has more to do with current political issues that may be a bigger priority for people. That doesn't mean people are racist. It doesn't mean people don't care about race relations. It means Terrorism and National Security, The economy, Employment and Jobs and Healthcare and the ACA all happen to rank higher. 

All of these issues can be tied to race, but that doesn't mean that differing ideologies on the issues are racist. My point is that there is not a singular set way to fix issues. 

Democrats, Republicans Agree on Four Top Issues for Campaign

Interestingly, both parties ranked race relations pretty low in the above link. 

1 hour ago, ShepherdontheRock said:

Do I think all conservatives are racist KKK members? Of course not. But I do think there's systemic racism and also a lot of bias that these people are unaware of and don't want to admit to. I think even the most anti-racist Black Lives Matter Africana people have internalized racism to some degree; I took a class in Africana studies and the (youngish, black) professor admitted that even he feels suspicious walking past young tall black men in hoodies on the street.

But that is a systemic issue within the whole of America. (America because that is what we are talking about here) Not with the GOP or DNC. The DNC has links to slavery and the KKK, etc, but I don't think of democrats as racist KKK members.  Changes have happened, we have progressed in many areas (and not as much in others) Please realize I am not trying to discredit the claim that racism exists in America. I am pointing out that blaming a political party for this and ignoring the fact that it happens on both sides of the spectrum is unfair. Not only to all individuals in both parties, but to individuals who are being discriminated against.  

1 hour ago, ShepherdontheRock said:

So, while I agree it's unfair for people to generalize all conservatives as super duper KKK racist, I definitely think there's a lot of failure to recognize privilege going on as well. And I think before you're like "how dare you call me racist[sexist, homophobic, etc]" maybe you should do some self examination for your own biases...

I don't know that anyone called me racist? Did they? Or were you speaking generally?

As far as recognizing privilege, fine. But what do you suggest people do with that? Beyond recognizing it? I do not mean this to attack you. Different forms of privilege exist. What would one do about white male privilege versus geographical privilege, etc. I am thinking of this globally in some cases. 

 

[Avalondaughter]

I have some thoughts about the conservative/racism thing.

I think we have to take a step back and understand what "racist" means.  Many of us associate racism with the KKK, lynchings, using the N word, legal segregation, etc.  Most decent people don't do that.  Most of us, liberal and conservative, know such things are morally wrong.

I remember learning a definition in my college sociology class.  Racism = Prejudice + Power.  Racism isn't just being openly aggressive to blacks.  It's the institutionalized system in our society that is ingrained into how we think and act.  It's the way you hold a bit more tightly to your purse when black people are around.  It's the fact that not many of us have friends of other races (my office best friend at my last job was a black man, but we rarely socialized outside the office and since I left that job, we barely speak).  It's the way we try to justify the deaths of black "thugs" killed by while people.  It's the how the media will tell you white people "demonstrate" and black people "riot". 

While liberals can be guilty of subtle acts of racism, conservative politicians have been using racism as a political weapon for the past 50 years.  It started with Nixon and "Southern Strategy".   In order to convert the southern Democrats to Republicanism Nixon and his cronies capitalized on southerners fear of black people resentment of the civil rights movement.  This work was continued by Reagan who talked of "welfare queens" and "strapping young bucks".  Even though as many white people as black people use public assistance, thanks to the efforts of Regan and conservative politicians like him, there is a fear that undeserving black people are living off our tax dollars. Do you really picture a white person when you hear the term "Welfare Queen"?  It was in this era that the War on Drugs started and that war has unfairly targeted black people for drug related crimes.  This continued in the G.H.W. Bush campaign with the Willie Horton ads (fear the black criminals coming to get you).  

One of the reasons why homeschooling has become so popular among white fundie groups is because Christian schools were being legally forced to integrate. 

As for Obama, I have heard more than enough racist language against both him and Michelle.  I do believe that his race has a lot to do with some of the criticism of his policies - some of which have been quite successful.  I'm not a huge fan of his - but a lot of that is because I don't think he's liberal enough.  He gets called a communist when he's barely left of center.  Yes, I do think race plays into that whether people will admit that or not.

Even now we hear conservative politicians using dog whistles like "ghetto" "inner city" "thug" and "blah people" to target minorities as people to fear and scorn and resent.  The current hardcore, nativist anti-immigration conservatives are another dimension of this ingrained racism in our culture.  Fear the people who are supposedly living off our tax dollars when they weren't even born in this country. 

This doesn't prove "all conservatives are racist" but for those who support politicians who think along these lines, it doesn't reflect well on them.

[Witherwings]

3 hours ago, Avalondaughter said:

This doesn't prove "all conservatives are racist" but for those who support politicians who think along these lines, it doesn't reflect well on them.

Does this go for all politicians both liberal and conservative, or are liberal politicians exempt from this? Does it reflect poorly on those who support Hillary Clinton?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-dunn/hillarys-hypocrisy-clinging-to-obama-after-her-racist-dog-whistles-in-2008_b_9011244.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4nmRZx9nc

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/02/25/clinton-heckled-by-black-lives-matter-activist/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/can-black-people-trust-hillary_b_9312004.html