Jill & Jessa Counting On, Regular Season 1

[MayMay1123]

49 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

http://wonkette.com/599726/here-is-your-recap-of-that-new-duggar-show-are-you-happy-now

I spit coffee everywhere while reading this, comments too. Note the use of "eleventy" in the article, that caught my eye.

 Sorry if this is a duplicate posting.

funny stuff...love the "squashy baby" description!

 

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

http://wonkette.com/599726/here-is-your-recap-of-that-new-duggar-show-are-you-happy-now

I spit coffee everywhere while reading this, comments too. Note the use of "eleventy" in the article, that caught my eye.

 Sorry if this is a duplicate posting.

Thanks so much, that was great!   But what struck me was looking at the old picture of Derick, where he looks almost, well, presentable, and compared to how he looks now, almost, well, Grizzly Adams.

[Mothership]

One of the comments to the Wonkette article made the point that I think a lot of us have been thinking:   The whole cooking/not cooking/inept cooking plot line was manufactured by TLC to suggest the idea that the J'slaves couldn't really be such slaves and in charge of all the howlers because "look, they can't even cook".  We're to believe the J'shelle did so much cooking and never let them observe or help or try it out even once.  I guess that huge industrial kitchen was only for J'shelle after all.

Nope TLC, not buying it.

And Wonkette--I hope you're a post here at FJ.  I like your style.

 

[anne.stults]

14 minutes ago, Mothership said:

One of the comments to the Wonkette article made the point that I think a lot of us have been thinking:   The whole cooking/not cooking/inept cooking plot line was manufactured by TLC to suggest the idea that the J'slaves couldn't really be such slaves and in charge of all the howlers because "look, they can't even cook".  We're to believe the J'shelle did so much cooking and never let them observe or help or try it out even once.  I guess that huge industrial kitchen was only for J'shelle after all.

Nope TLC, not buying it.

And Wonkette--I hope you're a post here at FJ.  I like your style.

 

Exactly.  I think it is the same with Jessa not being able to care for her own baby without help or Jill being overwhelmed with Izzy so she can't go to school.  They have both been little mommies since they were about 5 years old.  

[RoseWilder]

3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I come from the perspective that adults who stay in and by default promote the hate, homophobia, and misogyny that is ATI/IBLP/GOTHARD should be held accountable.

I agree. 

I'm always willing to cut people who've had terrible upbringings some slack for a few years. I know it sometimes takes time to start to question your upbringing and then fix some of the damage that was done. But Anna is turning 28 this year. She's approaching 30 years old and not only doesn't seem to be reevaluating any of it, she seems to be doubling down on it, and inflicting it on her children. I don't see her making even the tiniest effort to give her children a better upbringing than the one she had. In fact, she seems to be giving them an even worse one than her own because she at least got to grow up without cameras in her face and a father who wasn't a child molester (I'm assuming her siblings who left the cult would have spoken up if that had happened.) 

[OrchidBlossom]

9 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I agree. 

I'm always willing to cut people who've had terrible upbringings some slack for a few years. I know it sometimes takes time to start to question your upbringing and then fix some of the damage that was done. But Anna is turning 28 this year. She's approaching 30 years old and not only doesn't seem to be reevaluating any of it, she seems to be doubling down on it, and inflicting it on her children. I don't see her making even the tiniest effort to give her children a better upbringing than the one she had. In fact, she seems to be giving them an even worse one than her own because she at least got to grow up without cameras in her face and a father who wasn't a child molester (I'm assuming her siblings who left the cult would have spoken up if that had happened.) 

I also agree. But I think I can have sympathy for these 2nd and 3rd genners who didn't ask to born into this cult, and still hold them accountable for their choices to remain in it. I mean the whole point of ATI/Gothardism is to make sure these kids have almost no exposure to the outside world, and that they fear the outside world. They aren't taught critical thinking skills and they are taught from birth to repress their own thoughts, feelings, desires, and needs. These kids never really stood a chance. I sympathize with the fact that even if they are or ever were questioning their beliefs, they had no resources and no real way to explore those questions.

But, they're adults. They need to be held to account for what they say, do, and believe. They support a vile doctrine. I am sorry for them that they never really had an opportunity to learn anything else, but it doesn't change the harm they are doing. 

And of course I cut more slack to both younger members of the cult (say, Joy) and to the members who, while older, may not have a platform to explore their questions or to interact with the world (so like Jana who lives at home, though I have no doubt she will end up being a major kool aid drinker). But Anna has no excuse. She had her own home, her own internet, she lived in the most liberal city in the country, and she is pushing 30.

[RoseWilder]

1 minute ago, OrchidBlossom said:

But Anna has no excuse. She had her own home, her own internet, she lived in the most liberal city in the country, and she is pushing 30.

And she's had the exposure to the world the show has provided. All of the Duggar and Bates kids have - and I feel like that puts them in a different position than some of the other Fundies we talk about on this site. They've traveled a lot (the Duggars more than the Bates) and they've met a lot of people outside of their cult. And, during the first scandal, when Jill and Jessa went on Fox, they seemed aware that the majority of the public doesn't not share their view that Josh's behavior is normal and common. I realize they just think we're a bunch of heathens who are being mean to them, but at some point in the last year they should have at least started to wonder why the general public was so shocked by the molestation if it's as normal and common as their parents are trying to convince them it is. I know they weren't taught critical thinking skills, but a lot of people arrive at adulthood without having been taught some of the things that are needed in order to have a stable, emotionally healthy life. And then they have to figure out how to learn those things on their own. The Duggar kids were given a substandard education, but I don't think they're so stupid and incompetent that they can't figure some of this stuff out. Of course, in order to do that, they would first have to stop being famewhores. They would have to decide that money and d-list fame aren't as important to them as having emotionally healthy lives and giving their children stable, healthy, private childhoods.

[Bushes of Love]

14 hours ago, Kelsey said:

A few thoughts

1. If Michelle is oh so modest why would she tell the world that she needs a release at the end of a long, hard *snicker* day. GROSS!

This is what happens when people can't have a glass of wine at the end of the day.

[ksgranola1]

I wonder if the kids can hear the bedsprings creaking.

Ok; my bad.

[ClaraOswin]

7 hours ago, winterdice said:

Maybe if Ben is so tired he yawns while driving, he shouldn't be driving? Jessa is able to drive, surely. 

I often yawn while driving even if I'm not that tired.

6 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I assume Tabitha Paine the tutor/substitute J'Slave was neither seen nor heard in this episode?

Of course not. She was probably back at the house cleaning and doing laundry.

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Zombie-like is not zombie. Brainwashed is not zombie.  I come from the perspective that adults who stay in and by default promote the hate, homophobia, and misogyny that is ATI/IBLP/GOTHARD should be held accountable. I had a dustup with a poster recently because I would not change this perspective. I do not intend to change it as these people are harmful, no matter how good they look or how cute their babies are.

Anna has been forced to do nothing.

There are some of us who have stayed away from posting on the Duggar forums because of what I will call the sympathetic tone that has taken over. I decided that is bullshyte, the rest of us have every right to participate fully in these threads without being piled on and being told we are terrible people. I joined FJ because of the Duggars, and I will not have my participation diminished by fear.

Like I always say, we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

BTW, I need no more explanations of the Duggar women's cult upbringing, I know all of that and have acknowledged it many times (terrible upbringing for the Duggar men too). The Duggars are vile and reprehensible, no question. But it is the next generation that is responsible for continuing to propagate the hate. I cannot support that in any way, shape, or form.

Have a nice day everybody, I am going to engage in hair therapy at the salon. I deserve it.

 

We can all definitely agree to disagree and all views are welcome to be posted. As long as it doesn't turn into an attack, at least. 

Just keep in mind that you are welcome to be completely unsympathetic and others are welcome to be sympathetic. Neither one is bullshit (bullshyte.) It's just different opinions.

I saw no pile ons in that previous discussion. Just one or two people being bitchy. Every dicussion is going to have a few bad eggs though.

[Antimony]

I just finished watching. Major sympathy points should be awarded to my boyfriend for listening to my narration of this event. ("Look, I've never cooked a turkey in my life but I'm 100% sure she is doing it wrong." "Me too, love.") Extra points to him for the comment, "Do they not have a crib?" re: Spurgeon in the master bed.

I will say that Anna's philosophy of "do the right thing for the next 15 minutes" isn't inherently...bad. I've employed it in life. (Ex: SO is upset over something I consider unimportant, etc). The difference is that Anna and I have been raised with a very different definition of the word "right" with regards to this scenario.

I cannot believe everybody is so embarrassed by the word poop. I mean, I MEAN, this is a family that used to have 14 kids and one bathroom. I was raised in a TWO PERSON HOUSEHOLD with one bathroom and  still sometimes I bust in the bathroom when my mom was taking a bath being like "I GOTTA GO!!" It happens. It's a family. This is even a family with a baby focus. How do they not talk about poop all the time? (Side thought: was this scripted? An old St. Pat episode Michelle commented on how much green poop there would be from food dye.)

Jessa seems more like a person with a strong personality now than she ever did before. She's even got some self-depreciating humor going on there and a certain bluntness. I don't remember that from before.

[SassyPants]

Once you have your own child it is YOUR responsibility to make the BEST choices for THEM that are possible...the poor me, my crappy cult upbringing needs to Stop once you're the parent.

If they are all too dinged from their upbringings, they ALL need to stop procreating until they are less fragile and can operate from an adult position. 

Can't have it both ways without screwing up yet another generation.

[OrchidBlossom]

58 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Once you have your own child it is YOUR responsibility to make the BEST choices for THEM that are possible...the poor me, my crappy cult upbringing needs to Stop once you're the parent.

If they are all too dinged from their upbringings, they ALL need to stop procreating until they are less fragile and can operate from an adult position. 

Can't have it both ways without screwing up yet another generation.

To be fair, it's not like they know they're "all too dinged" (to use your phrase) to procreate. And to be fair, THEY aren't the ones saying "my crappy cult upbringing". They think they are doing the right thing and making the right choices for their kids.

Again, I lean more your way in terms of holding the Duggars accountable for what they are doing, even though I do have sympathy for the tough position they are in re: actually figuring out enough about the world to want out. But they aren't trying to have it both ways.

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

 

We can all definitely agree to disagree and all views are welcome to be posted. As long as it doesn't turn into an attack, at least. 

Just keep in mind that you are welcome to be completely unsympathetic and others are welcome to be sympathetic. Neither one is bullshit (bullshyte.) It's just different opinions.

I saw no pile ons in that previous discussion. Just one or two people being bitchy. Every dicussion is going to have a few bad eggs though.

No, you misunderstand. The bullshyte referred to in my post is staying out of the Duggar area because of fear or a sense of not fitting in (although sympathy is somewhat problematic for me on a board that eschews fundamentalism). I was not calling anyone's opinion bullshyte. See how easy it is for a miscommunication to happen?  I have not felt that all views are welcome in the Duggar threads, just my gut feeling after lurking there. Just MY feelings, YMMV.

I was piled on by downvotes in my Duggar dustup (2 downvotes feel like a pile on, not used to it!), and I felt alone out there. No way did I expect such a virulent reaction to my post. I know you weren't talking to me directly, because personal attacks, unless in response to being attacked, are not my style. Not to rehash because  I'm over it, but a careful reading of the post exchange will reveal that I did not sling the first personal affront.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, OrchidBlossom said:

To be fair, it's not like they know they're "all too dinged" (to use your phrase) to procreate. And to be fair, THEY aren't the ones saying "my crappy cult upbringing". They think they are doing the right thing and making the right choices for their kids.

Again, I lean more your way in terms of holding the Duggars accountable for what they are doing, even though I do have sympathy for the tough position they are in re: actually figuring out enough about the world to want out. But they aren't trying to have it both ways.

They may think they are doing right , but just one reading of FJ would reveal otherwise, if only any of them were brave enough. In my view, they are not in a tough position at all because their willful ignorance of the evils of ATI/IBLP/GOTHARD poses no cognitive dissonance or discomfort to them whatsoever. The problem is, staying in that mess will screw up their subsequent generations, while contributing to the racism/homophobia/misogyny in our society, not to mention moving us closer to a theocracy. This goes for the Bates too, David Walker, all of them.

BTW, no one would reasonably expect a newly minted 18 year old fundie " adult" who still lives at home to be as accountable as a 28 year old fundie adult who is married with children and has moved out of the house.

I'm still short on sympathy, while not diminishing in any way the awfulness of the Duggar upbringing. Many folks have awful upbringings, including molestation, and do not promulgate hate directly or indirectly. I really hope that as the years pass, minds are opened and the light shines in. In the meanwhile, no opportunity to express disapproval of those adhering to the beliefs and practices of ATI/IBLP/GOTHARD should go untaken. 

 

 

[sj3339sta]

My biggest beef with this show is how it portrays Christianity.  IBLP is NOT Christianity.  It's a cult.  I am a born again believer in Christ.  I go to church.  And hell, some of you may even consider me fundie-lite.  Even so, the idea that so many people watch this show and see THAT heresy as a part of my faith makes me so SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO angry.  I wish the Church would expose these fools for what they are.  

And yes, those in the family who are grown adults I assume can read and comprehend what they read.  They have read the Bible.  They should see how their beliefs simply do not jive with what is taught there.  They have zero excuses.  

[CyborgKin]

9 minutes ago, sj3339sta said:

My biggest beef with this show is how it portrays Christianity.  IBLP is NOT Christianity.  It's a cult.  I am a born again believer in Christ.  I go to church and hell, some of you may even consider me fundie-lite.  Even so, the idea that so many people watch this show and see THAT heresy as a part of my faith makes me so SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO angry.  I wish the Church would expose these fools for what they are.  

And yes, those in the family who are grown adults I assume can read and comprehend what they read.  They have read the Bible.  They should see how their beliefs simply do not jive with what is taught there.  They have zero excuses.  

Phrasing!  But yeah, I completely agree.

 

Also, I want 'Too dinged to procreate' as a post count title.  Actually maybe I'll have to set it as a location, it's too appropriate.

[sj3339sta]

I'm also a church secretary, and some days it feels like hell.  LOL

[SilverBeach]

13 minutes ago, sj3339sta said:

My biggest beef with this show is how it portrays Christianity.  IBLP is NOT Christianity.  It's a cult.  I am a born again believer in Christ.  I go to church and hell, some of you may even consider me fundie-lite.  Even so, the idea that so many people watch this show and see THAT heresy as a part of my faith makes me so SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO angry.  I wish the Church would expose these fools for what they are.  

And yes, those in the family who are grown adults I assume can read and comprehend what they read.  They have read the Bible.  They should see how their beliefs simply do not jive with what is taught there.  They have zero excuses.  

+eleventy!

I agree that real Christianity is totally misrepresented by these folks. They don't follow God, Jesus, or the Bible, they follow Gothard and his awful teachings. GOTHARD could not exigete his way out of a paper bag, and is in no position to be leading folks. Unfortunately, fundies are often not selective about who they allow to pastor them, and do not look for things such as credentials from a REAL seminary.

[sj3339sta]

5 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I agree that real Christianity is totally misrepresented by these folks. They don't follow God, Jesus, or the Bible, they follow Gothard and his awful teachings. GOTHARD could not exigete his way out of a paper bag, and is in no position to be leading folks. Unfortunately, fundies are often not selective about who they allow to pastor them, such as looking for credentials from a REAL seminary.

Since Gothard is supposedly out of the picture, I wonder who is actually doing the leading now?

[quiverofdoubt]

It drives me nuts that to the casual viewer the duggars come off as nothing but good devout christians. They are not. They are part of a cult, a very dangerous cult, with scary beliefs. But they are so careful in how they present themselves on paper/internet that unless you dig a little it's easy to miss.  They give standard christian answers to questions, but never the real reason they follow certain rules.   It's very misleading and calculated.

At least the scandals have turned a lot of people and helped them see the underbelly, but many are still fooled. 

I'm an atheist, but am still offended that they try to call themselves plain old christians, and not gothardites or quiverfull.

[SilverBeach]

4 minutes ago, sj3339sta said:

Since Gothard is supposedly out of the picture now, I wonder who is actually doing the leading now?

The teachings are still his. Gil Bates and the rest of the board members are "leading" the org now, and true believers like David Walker are carrying on with IBLP activities in Big Sandy. 

Check out:

http://iblp.org/about-iblp/corporate-information

[JenniferJuniper]

17 minutes ago, sj3339sta said:

 And yes, those in the family who are grown adults I assume can read and comprehend what they read.  They have read the Bible.  They should see how their beliefs simply do not jive with what is taught there.  They have zero excuses.  

I understand what you are saying, but as a lifelong atheist who believes the Bible was conceived and written by an assortment of long-ago human beings with various agendas, it has always seemed to me that believers in the Bible almost have to pick and choose what they take away from it and I can see how things can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways.   If you've been brainwashed raised from birth to believe in particular interpretations, I can understand why people stick with them.

[quiverofdoubt]

11 minutes ago, sj3339sta said:

Since Gothard is supposedly out of the picture, I wonder who is actually doing the leading now?

This cult seems to be set up in  a cell like structure: they follow got hard's original teachings, but each family unit is like a separate cell.  The man in the house is the leader of that particular cell, so variation exists within families. I think there's  a structure above the family as well, the homechurch with elders for example- not sure the exact set up for that.  Got hard brought in all the original followers with his seminars in the 70's/80's, but he also made converting a big component of his teachings. That way individual cells will continue the message for him, even if he's been taken out.

[sj3339sta]

1 minute ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I understand what you are saying, but as a lifelong atheist who believes the Bible was conceived and written by an assortment of long-ago human beings with various agendas, it has always seemed to me that believers in the Bible almost have to pick and choose what they take away from it and I can see how things can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways.   If you've been brainwashed raised from birth to believe in particular interpretations, I can understand why people stick with them.

As a lifelong brainwashed believer...I disagree.  If a person learns about the cultures and context in which a lot of it is written, there isn't much room for  swaying on the big points such as who God is and how salvation is provided.  How one chooses to live their life is going to depend on their convictions and interpretation.  But that is little stuff.  And it's the little stuff and their legalistic interpretations that have made the Duggar's famous.