Courageous by the makers of Fireproof

[Trynn]

To Trynn: I find it interesting that you find the whole submission thing "shudder" -able, but the conversation from the dad to the daughter better... when really, it's that dad-daughter conversation ("Allow ME to approve any young man" instead of trusting her own judgment) that sets up a brain for the whole submission thing. After all, you have to learn that your own opinion doesn't count or isn't as wise or Godly from somewhere...

I guess I don't see it as "choosing her husband for her," rather, she makes her own choice, and unless the guy has characteristics he sees as problematic for her, and if not, he gets to have his say. I see it as more of guiding her rather than telling her her opinion doesn't count Does that make sense? I guess I would have to read the rest of the page to get the context. I do not know if said daughter has reached adulthood. If she has, yes this is unacceptable, but when she is still a teenager there's nothing wrong with the dad having some say in who she dates.

On the other side of the spectrum, a wife is as an adult. For her to have to "obey" her husband is demeaning. Children, on the other hand, while I'm not arguing that they are to be slaves of their parents, there do need to be some ground rules that the child should obey.

If the daughter is an adult, all I've said goes out the window and it's creepy.

And I didn't mean that there AREN'T any happy marriages where one parent didn't approve. What I meant by that was that I PERSONALLY didn't know of any. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I have yet to meet them. Based on my prism of experience, I think a marriage is more likely to last if both parents approve. That is not to say that, if they disapprove on some trivial reason, the marriage won't work anyway. And there are some cases where this maybe wouldn't be the best idea (like the families we snark on here.) But I think in general it is good to have a parents' advice on whom you marry.

[Austin]

My MIL hates me, and the feeling is mutual. However, I've been happily married to her son for the past almost 12 years, and we've been together for almost 16 years. Go figure...

My MIL hates me, too (she hates the spouses of all of her children, except the one who died, but she hated him before he died), but in 29-plus years of marriage, it hasn't been a huge factor. At all.

So yeah, anecdata is often useless. For every parent-approved marriage success these people cite, others can cite a parent-non-approved marriage that worked out just as well.

[Daenerys]

I've seen quite a lot of happy marriages where one or both sets of parents disapproved. Anecdata is fun! :?

I think, though, that if your parents are reasonable people who you get on well with, and have been happily married (not necessarily to each other) for a long time, then their opinion is probably of some worth. I wouldn't let my mother tell me what to do but I still feel better about moving in with my boyfriend knowing that she thinks it's a good relationship and that we have a future together.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think, though, that if your parents are reasonable people who you get on well with, and have been happily married (not necessarily to each other) for a long time, then their opinion is probably of some worth. I wouldn't let my mother tell me what to do but I still feel better about moving in with my boyfriend knowing that she thinks it's a good relationship and that we have a future together.

I totally agree with you. But honestly I don't see what that has to do with the price of tea in China. Or my post.

**ETA for clarification: My point was, anyone can tell a story about their personal experience, (anecdotes, yay!) but it's bullshit to assume that extrapolates across a population without any other evidence. My point was not, "No one should give a shit about what their parents think, ever."

[lilwriter85]

omg. assuming these are verbatim quotes from the actual book, wow.

let's just set the themes aside here, and say that the writing is TERRIBLE. ugh! it's like it's written for third graders.

I was also wondering if those were verbatim quotes. I agree the writing is terrible. I'm not surprised that a Christian book would be written like this, a lot of Christian books are awful to read. One of my friend's comes from a very religious family and her sister once got her to read a Karen Kingsbury novel and my friend said it was probably the worst book she ever read. She said Stephenie Meyer is better writer than Kingsbury.

From the excerpt posted by the OP, the book shows a lot of patriarchy and another poster who saw the film said the same thing. I could see this movie being disliked again by some Christians.

[emeraldskull]

I totally agree with you. But honestly I don't see what that has to do with the price of tea in China. Or my post.

I agree with you here, Lissar. The "approval" of the parents really has no bearing whatsoever on how a marriage turns out. Like Lissar, I could name just as many non-parent approved marriages that have worked out as ones with parental approval. How one starts a marriage has pretty much 0 bearing on how long lasting/happy the marriage ends up being.

[sableduck]

Those are verbatim quotes. I included the page numbers so you can look them up and read a bit more of the context if you want.

The daughter in question is 15 in the book. And there are other, but less blatant, remarks that her dad makes--like before she can spend any time with a male, even routinely eating lunch with him at school, the boy needs to come talk to her dad first and tell him the "intended purpose" of the relationship. And it's clear that has to happen no matter how old she is.

[PBrooke]

Remember, a novelization often contains as much of the original script as possible (so you really feel like you're "reading" the movie). Looks like the original screenplay is what's awful, not necessarily the author hired to write up the novelization.

[Visionoyahweh]

The daughter in question is 15 in the book. And there are other, but less blatant, remarks that her dad makes--like before she can spend any time with a male, even routinely eating lunch with him at school, the boy needs to come talk to her dad first and tell him the "intended purpose" of the relationship. And it's clear that has to happen no matter how old she is.

Ugh, this is such bullshit I don't even know what to say. When does he spring homeschooling/insular life on her?

[formergothardite]

This one makes me shudder. Especially when I know that this will be spread into mainstream Christianity. Fireproof at least had a good message, even if it was poorly executed. This just sounds like an awful message from the start.

This one sounds slightly more reasonable, especially if the child isn't an adult. I believe that both young men and young women should seek their father and mother's advice about potential marriage partners. Personally, I have never seen a happy marriage where the parents didn't approve of the partner.

However, the ring thing sounds...over the top.

[FuManchu]

Hmm. I can't help wondering how someone like that 'daughter controller' would react to a more open discussion than the black-and-white one they're having.

"...If you'll trust me with your heart and allow me to approve any young man that desire to have more than a friendship with you, then I promise to take care of you and give you my full blessing when God shows us both who the right one is...Jade, will you trust me with your heart until God shows us the right man?"

"Just to check, Dad...when you say 'approve', what does that mean? Approve for what?"

"Well...marriage, of course."

"Right - oh yeah, of course. Well, that's fine. I'll let you do that."

"Thank you, Jade. I appreciate your trust in me."

"But for anything up to and including sex, I don't need your permission?"

"No, that should be... wait, what?"

"Well, there's a grey area between "more than a friendship" and "marriage" that tends to be quite popular. I'm OK to explore that, I'll just let you know when I'm thinking of getting married."

"No, hang on... I'll need to approve everyone who wants more than a friendship with you."

"So I need to phone you before I sleep with anyone? I mean, it's not like I'm doing it now, but in three years I might want to, and what if you're out or not answering your phone? Do I wait up all night?"

"What? No! I wouldn't be giving my permission for that!"

"So... you're just going to say no every time? What exactly is the insight you possess that makes you different from any other father, then?"

"Look... I'm just saying that you should ask me before it goes beyond friendship."

"OK, but...let's say I'm 22 and on holiday in Italy, and I meet this great Norwegian guy. We do a bit of travelling together, and I think he likes me. Do I ask for your approval before anything else happens?"

"Yes, you'd need to."

"By phone? I mean, you're back in the US. How will you know what he's like? Will you talk to him?"

"Er...yes, yes. I'd need to talk to him."

"So...you're saying that I have to go up to my Norwegian friend and say 'Hi Sven, just a heads up but I really like you and I'm getting the idea that you really like me, but before we can kiss on the dancefloor or take a moonlit beach walk you'll need to make an international call to my father so he can assess your worthiness to touch me.' Is that all?"

"Well, yes, that's what would need to happen. But... I mean, if he didn't want to move to the US..."

"Wait, you'd ask him that? 'Hi Sven, before you kiss my daughter I'd like to know what your thoughts are on moving to the US to be with her for the rest of your life'?"

"Er...look, Jade, I've got a better idea than all this. Can you just do what every other daughter does and simply not tell me anything you get up to until you're married? I'm thinking that if I just don't ask I'll feel much better about the whole thing."

"Sure, Dad. Thanks! Er... can I have the ring anyway? I mean, it'd be a shame to waste it."

[Visionoyahweh]

FuManchu that's great! God forbid the people that write these things actually think about realistic dialog and situations.

[FuManchu]

FuManchu that's great! God forbid the people that write these things actually think about realistic dialog and situations.

Thanks! I don't think it's a coincidence that the only way to make sure all her potential relationships are of a type where the rules of this 'promise' are applicable is to:

(a) not leave town (otherwise how can Dad talk to them?);

(b) not learn a foreign language (Dad will need to be able to communicate with all her suitors);

© not go on dates (they can be a spur-of-the-moment thing); and

(d) only consider a relationship with a boy who thinks the same way as her father does (anyone else will run a mile when their innocent request to take her to the cinema - whatever age she is - is met with a demand that they discuss it with her father).

[Austin]

Personally, I have never seen a happy marriage where the parents didn't approve of the partner.

Really? Probably half the married people I know had one or the other set of parents not exactly thrilled at the prospect. My husband's mother hated/hates me, and we've been happily married now for 29 years.

If [adult] couples waited for all the parents to come on board, in many situations, they wouldn't get married. Once you reach a certain age, you've gotta live your own life. They can either deal or not deal, their choice.