Sexual loopholes

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

So, the other day, my friends and I were talking about sexual things that happened at church camps and the like when we were teens. That got me wondering, how many kids from families like the Duggars and Bateses who profess abstinence actually have kids who experiment before marriage? True, once you're courting, you're completely supervised, but that same level of supervision doesn't seem to exist when people aren't courting.

And, I know it's popular with promise ring virgins to have different kinds of sex than piv, would that level of experimentation be a thing in their culture when kids are trying to remain "virginal"?

[doggie]

with the duggers it would have been hard since they were never allowed alone time. maybe invest would have been all they had a chance to do. but with the strict control they were under it would have been hard. but who knows what kind of things happened at the gothard camp?

[morri]

there was an ex quiverfull post which posted a list which included noticing how your siblings masturbated so at least that may be a chance

[Fascinated]

there was an ex quiverfull post which posted a list which included noticing how your siblings masturbated so at least that may be a chance

Huh? They can't masturbate in the bathroom or somewhere where their siblings won't notice? My god. It's fun to picture all of these kids engaging in super secret sex stuff at camp though, isn't it? Can't imagine it really happens, though. Surely someone would notice? Someone like Jill, perhaps?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Huh? They can't masturbate in the bathroom or somewhere where their siblings won't notice? My god. It's fun to picture all of these kids engaging in super secret sex stuff at camp though, isn't it? Can't imagine it really happens, though. Surely someone would notice? Someone like Jill, perhaps?

I went to church camp every summer in high school. Where there's a will there's a way. And when you're dealing with teenagers and you're saying "absolutely not," you're going to create that will.

And, trust me, even the most "holier than thou" kids at the church camp I attended have their share of misconduct stories.

[doggie]

But those kids had freedom and that's the difference between them and the Duggers. Cameras and no showering Alone or extra time in the bathroom.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

But those kids had freedom and that's the difference between them and the Duggers. Cameras and no showering Alone or extra time in the bathroom.

There's no freedom at church camp. We always had to be with our small group or in our bedrooms. The bathrooms were all shared with 2 or 3 other rooms on the floor. Boys and girls were kept on opposite sides of the camp. Group leaders, officials from each church (every church in the diocese went), camp leaders, and 10 parents from each church monitored the grounds 24 hours a day. We had lights out at 9 every night and no one was allowed out of their room except to use the bathroom or visit the nurse (we had two nurses per building) until 7:30 in the morning, when we were expected to be down in the mess hall for lunch. And you were expected to be with your small group at lunch. Any time we left the camp for an activity, we were assigned groups and had to stay with them the entire time we were at our chosen activity. If you went to the bathroom while out or during small group activities, an adult of your sex had to accompany you. And usually they took a group with them. Even the busses were broken down so that one or two churches had a bus and all the kids and their accompanying adults filled the seats, with adults sitting at least every 4 rows.

That doesn't change the fact that things happened.

[BrownieMomma]

The Duggars don't go to church camp. Remember? They don't even go to a church with a youth group or have activities with other youth.

I'm willing to allow there is room for homosexual activity at JTTH or Alert. Heck there might, maybe, be opportunities at the annual Big Sandy homeschool meeting. However, even then, I doubt too very much is going on.

[halcionne]

I agree with DuggarsTheEndIsNear: where there's a will, there's a way. We know the Duggars can barely keep track of their own kids at home, so how can we expect them to monitor them all when they've gone in 19 different directions at Big Sandy, for instance? Every family at the convention would have similar challenges with supervision, I'm sure.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There's a difference between the constant supervision of the Duggar kids (no way would they be allowed to attend a mixed summer camp) and a mixed program that simply preaches against pre-marital sex.

Enough time has passed that I think I can tell this story. I remember going to a talk on the Orthodox approach to sex at a weekend conference for high school students - about 45 min. after losing my virginity. I also remember going on an Orthodox trip to Israel that summer with my now-husband and being taught all about avoiding any physical contact before marriage - while finding some truly creative ways to sneak around, including using bomb shelters. [FWIW, I'll also say that the fact we did this, or that others didn't, had almost no long-term impact on how we turned out.]

[doggie]

That's one of the things with the Duggers they desire has been prayed out of themselves for the most part guilt and constant squealing on and constant confessions to parents. Plus seldom access to other kids or the opposite sex.

[polecat]

The Duggars don't go to church camp. Remember? They don't even go to a church with a youth group or have activities with other youth.

I'm willing to allow there is room for homosexual activity at JTTH or Alert. Heck there might, maybe, be opportunities at the annual Big Sandy homeschool meeting. However, even then, I doubt too very much is going on.

Oh, it happens. It doesn't necessarily happen frequently, but kids who have a will will most definitely find a way. (I say this as an ex-fundy whose parents thought that PCC and Bob Jones were liberal think tanks and tools of the devil). The reason we don't hear more about it is because the parents do their darndest to cover it up. If they didn't, their daughters would be unmarriageable. Their sons might as well in some churches and may not be eligible for "the ministry."

[apandaaries]

That's one of the things with the Duggers they desire has been prayed out of themselves for the most part guilt and constant squealing on and constant confessions to parents. Plus seldom access to other kids or the opposite sex.

I totally agree with this. The Duggars and some other hardcore fundie families train their kids to tell on one another and confess their own sins to their parents. Jill mentioned somewhere how hard it was to stay "pure," but that her mother encouraged her to pray for her future husband and write that list of character qualities/questions for a future spouse. The Duggars aren't especially well-supervised, but they are trained to rat each other out and to police their own behavior.

I also wonder about potential for same sex encounters at Alert or JTTH. The impression I've gotten from my internet sleuthing is that those camps are pretty heavily supervised, as well. It's true that where there's a will, there's a way...but with the levels of indoctrination and brainwashing in these groups, I think very little actually occurs.

[apandaaries]

Oh, it happens. It doesn't necessarily happen frequently, but kids who have a will will most definitely find a way. (I say this as an ex-fundy whose parents thought that PCC and Bob Jones were liberal think tanks and tools of the devil). The reason we don't hear more about it is because the parents do their darndest to cover it up. If they didn't, their daughters would be unmarriageable. Their sons might as well in some churches and may not be eligible for "the ministry."

Oh, do tell, please. You can share other people's secrets, if you prefer not to share those of your family. :D

I'm intensely curious about all kinds of fundamentalist cultures and love to read up on them, especially personal experiences. The impression I've gotten is that the "hellfire and damnation" speeches can be fairly effective for controlling a lot of behaviors, when the preaching begins early enough. That certainly doesn't mean that people don't slip up and then feel guilty for months or years afterwards, though...

[MoonFace]

But those kids had freedom and that's the difference between them and the Duggers. Cameras and no showering Alone or extra time in the bathroom.

No showering alone???? Really?

And what constitutes extra bathroom time when you have cramps ?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Buttsex is God's loophole. But not for fundies, as even front hugging someone of the opposite sex as considered as filthy as touching their genitals.

But when it comes to masturbation, I think even a teenager with no arms and legs would find a way to do it somehow. They cant be watched every second of the day, and their parents have too many kids to watch, so might not notice if one of their kids spent 10 minutes in the bathroom. And even if they noticed, the kid could have been taking a shit. Or there is plenty of time to do it in the bath or shower.

At the various ATI camps, like JTTH and ALERT, its sex segregated, but if they can manage to not feel crushing guilt, people might not notice a bit of gay fun. Or if you sneaked off at one of the ATI family events, but then again, I imagine people are watching and getting past your parents and the judging eyes of thousands of fundies would be hard for you to so much as speak to the opposite gender without being judged and told on.

[sockinshoe]

I wonder how they view such things as nocturnal discharge or sexual dreams, which are perfectly normal and healthy and cannot really be controlled.

[polecat]

Oh, do tell, please. You can share other people's secrets, if you prefer not to share those of your family. :D

I'm intensely curious about all kinds of fundamentalist cultures and love to read up on them, especially personal experiences. The impression I've gotten is that the "hellfire and damnation" speeches can be fairly effective for controlling a lot of behaviors, when the preaching begins early enough. That certainly doesn't mean that people don't slip up and then feel guilty for months or years afterwards, though...

I think there're two types of people when it comes to slip-ups. The people like me who think it's all a bunch of bunk and so don't really feel guilty anyway and those who slip up, have their parents cover up for them in whatever way, and then spend their lives proving they really aren't all that bad. They ALL do it. Some just care less than others.

So stories. I'll stick with high school (and I can't vouch for how well the kids' parents controlled them so it's quite possible there was a lapse in monitoring).

1. One girl got pregnant and had an abortion. It was all hushed up very well. Her parents probably weren't strict -- her skirts were usually right at knee-length, so very defrauding, and she'd occasionally be seen with a v-neck shirt. Shocking. So it's quite possible that this was just a case of fundy parents not doing a good job of watching over their kid's virtue.

2. Another girl got pregnant at 15, got kicked out of the school, went on to have two more out-of-wedlock kids with two other men, and to this day, she's a fundy. She's just not a very good one. lol. Candy-style maybe.

3. One boy and his sister, only a year apart, were found in the parking lot during Wednesday night church. I don't know what else to say about that.

4. One boy habitually sexually harassed girls until he was finally expelled (this may not really count since he clearly had a problem and there was nothing consensual about what he was doing).

5. One couple got handsy in the back of the bus on the way home from an "away" game -- boys and girls were supposed to be on opposite sides of the bus. The bus driver caught them during a hand check. They did get in trouble, but she was the administrator's daughter, so she definitely got the easier end of the beating stick. They were forced to break up, though.

6. The pastor's son was arrested in senior year for soliciting a prostitute/police officer. He'd told his parents he was going to work, but he wasn't -- that one was SERIOUSLY hushed up.

7. One young couple shared a Bible in the back pew, and they took advantage of the Bible in his lap as cover during a sermon. (This was rumored to have happened with other couples, but I only know of this one for sure.)

8. One girl played sick so that she wouldn't have to go to church that day, and her parents left her home alone. She then got jiggy with a neighborhood boy, but they were found out when parents came home. That one was NOT hushed up because she was at the time dating a deacon's son. She is no longer fundy.

Most of those kids today (20-some odd years later) is still pretty hardcore fundy. Some wear pants and listen to CCM, but they are absolutely fundy in mindset. I don't know how they justify their behavior/hypocrisy. Me? I feel no guilt for my shenanigans and am definitely not fundy any longer, lol.

Disclaimer: This happened over a period of about 6 to 8 years, as best I can remember. It wasn't all in the space of a year or two, and these eight kids were only a fraction of the kids at the school. I don't know that it is necessarily commonplace. But it definitely happens.

[apandaaries]

I think there're two types of people when it comes to slip-ups. The people like me who think it's all a bunch of bunk and so don't really feel guilty anyway and those who slip up, have their parents cover up for them in whatever way, and then spend their lives proving they really aren't all that bad. They ALL do it. Some just care less than others.

So stories. I'll stick with high school (and I can't vouch for how well the kids' parents controlled them so it's quite possible there was a lapse in monitoring).

1. One girl got pregnant and had an abortion. It was all hushed up very well. Her parents probably weren't strict -- her skirts were usually right at knee-length, so very defrauding, and she'd occasionally be seen with a v-neck shirt. Shocking. So it's quite possible that this was just a case of fundy parents not doing a good job of watching over their kid's virtue.

2. Another girl got pregnant at 15, got kicked out of the school, went on to have two more out-of-wedlock kids with two other men, and to this day, she's a fundy. She's just not a very good one. lol. Candy-style maybe.

3. One boy and his sister, only a year apart, were found in the parking lot during Wednesday night church. I don't know what else to say about that.

4. One boy habitually sexually harassed girls until he was finally expelled (this may not really count since he clearly had a problem and there was nothing consensual about what he was doing).

5. One couple got handsy in the back of the bus on the way home from an "away" game -- boys and girls were supposed to be on opposite sides of the bus. The bus driver caught them during a hand check. They did get in trouble, but she was the administrator's daughter, so she definitely got the easier end of the beating stick. They were forced to break up, though.

6. The pastor's son was arrested in senior year for soliciting a prostitute/police officer. He'd told his parents he was going to work, but he wasn't -- that one was SERIOUSLY hushed up.

7. One young couple shared a Bible in the back pew, and they took advantage of the Bible in his lap as cover during a sermon. (This was rumored to have happened with other couples, but I only know of this one for sure.)

8. One girl played sick so that she wouldn't have to go to church that day, and her parents left her home alone. She then got jiggy with a neighborhood boy, but they were found out when parents came home. That one was NOT hushed up because she was at the time dating a deacon's son. She is no longer fundy.

Most of those kids today (20-some odd years later) is still pretty hardcore fundy. Some wear pants and listen to CCM, but they are absolutely fundy in mindset. I don't know how they justify their behavior/hypocrisy. Me? I feel no guilt for my shenanigans and am definitely not fundy any longer, lol.

Disclaimer: This happened over a period of about 6 to 8 years, as best I can remember. It wasn't all in the space of a year or two, and these eight kids were only a fraction of the kids at the school. I don't know that it is necessarily commonplace. But it definitely happens.

Awesome! I love these stories and thank you so much for sharing!

But these are high schoolers who actually attend high school, yes? So again, different than the Duggars and their strict limitations (though #3 has disturbing possibilities for them). Do you mind if I ask if you're from the Bible belt? Or attended a Christian high school? What a collection of stories! Where do all these fundies live and breed (aside from Arkansas and Tennessee, which I know of thanks to the Duggars and Bates)?

[August]

Oh, I thought this would be that Garfunkel and Oates song. Love that.

[August]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZF_R_j0OY

[polecat]

Awesome! I love these stories and thank you so much for sharing!

But these are high schoolers who actually attend high school, yes? So again, different than the Duggars and their strict limitations (though #3 has disturbing possibilities for them). Do you mind if I ask if you're from the Bible belt? Or attend a Christian high school? What a collection of stories! Where do all these fundies live and breed (aside from Arkansas and Tennessee, which I know of thanks to the Duggars and Bates)?

We were in an IFB school, so yes, we were attending school (this was from sixth grade until a few years after graduation, which is about as long as I stayed in the loop, lol). So yes, different from Duggars, but most of the parents and the school were extremely strict when it came to dating (remember, too, that this was an entire generation ago, so fundies may have become stricter simply knowing what they themselves got up to in school). While the kids could interact, there was no touching permitted (not even brushing against a person accidentally), and kids were never allowed to be alone together or date without an adult present. It was not technically in the Bible belt but was just north of it.

As for me, I got away with nothing while in high school because I'd actually say my parents were stricter than the Duggars (TV?! Might as well send your precious virgins straight to hell!). Well, that and I was a really late bloomer. None of the fundy boys liked me. :lol: :cracking-up: :nenner:

I'd forgotten about the couple who were allowed to date as long as they took their younger siblings for chaperones. (The parents had taught the younger ones to snitch. The couple learned that they could bribe the younger ones NOT to snitch, and the little ones kept their mouths shut to keep that gravy train moving). That couple is married today with 6 or 7 kids and owns a Chik-Fil-A, lol. I'd like to think the Duggar kids have learned that trick, but I doubt it. I do think the older ones have been well and truly brainwashed. The younger ones? Well, I wouldn't be so surprised if a few of them stray at some point in the future.

ETA: I did actually have a minor shenanigan when I went out with a young airman (at 16 -- wtf were my parents thinking?) who put his hand on my knee when my parents weren't looking. Shocking, I know. Utterly depraved.

[RosyDaisy]

When I attended the Church of Christ, hook ups were very common at camp and Vacation Bible School Hell, I even provided some alibis when the adults became suspicious.

[GenerationCedarchip]

At my church, most of us grew up in families where we were fairly closely supervised, but we were also taught to police our own behavior so there was a lot of self-inflicted guilt attached to even pretty minor handholding, etc... I laugh now when I think of the various forms of sneaking around that went on. Most of it involved holding hands in the back of church under cover of hymnals or sneaking kisses on church hikes and so on. The young adult groups (anyone under 30 and unmarried - there was a men's circle and a women's circle) were charged with cleaning and organizing the nurseries and Sunday School rooms after church and there were definitely some clandestine makeout sessions going on there. I was visiting my parents and went to a church luncheon with them and one of the elders at our table got visibly annoyed and huffed, "The young adult circles always take so long to clean up the nurseries and I'm sure they're all gossiping and goofing off back there." I tried so hard not to laugh. If he only knew.

That being said, anyone who got caught faced some pretty serious consequences. If the couple seemed repentant and went on to get married, they would both still be accepted for the most part. If not, then both the man and woman would be seen as "damaged goods" and a lot of families would stop associating with them. You could grovel your way back into the good graces of most people, but from what I saw, it definitely took some time.

[BrownieMomma]

I grew up Southern Baptist and public schooled, went on many camps and trips and to my knowledge I never ever knew of any kind of hanky panky going on.

It's quite possible it happened I just didn't know how tell it was happening.