Sexual loopholes

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I didn't mean to imply that it ONLY happened at church camps. These families get together and there are 30+ people of varying ages. It wouldn't take too much for someone to slip away with someone else because you're not going to keep track of all those people.

Hell, my ex boyfriend and I performed oral on each other when we were 17 and in the bathroom at his uncle's house when THE ENTIRITY of his family (60+ people on that side) were there. We just snuck off at different times, so it wasn't suspicious.

[RosyDaisy]

Anytime you have a gathering with groups of horny teens and young adults, there's going to be some sneaking around and hooking up going on.

[lilith]

I've always thought that Josh's young marriage, and now Josiah's and Jessa's, were very much motivated by JimBob and Michelle's concern about them retaining their purity. Which implies that there must be some opportunity for them to fool around. Why else would a culture that places such emphasis on men providing for their wife and endless quiver endorse very young men with limited education and without a steady income marrying? Same goes for Joseph Maxwell who married much younger than his brothers and can't seem to keep his hands off his wife.

[doggie]

duggers are controlled by fear. there is so much fear in their lives that is so necessary for the control they need to achieve and fear if they don't have that level of control. and fear of the world because it does not conform to their faith. I mean faith comes from the fear of the unknown fear of death fear of being alone.

[uber frau]

I think that's true of many religious ppl. It seems that the more anxious they are, the more extreme they tend to be. (Steve Maxwell, I'm looking at you...)

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Anyone who is controlled is done so out of fear. You can't control someone with positive emotions. Sure you can use positive emotions to increase the likelihood of someone doing what you want or them, but it doesn't give you control or power.

[Arrowoftruth]

It was mentioned that Duggars have been trained to spill their hearts to their parenta or if a sibling sees something to tell but I can see a couple of pairs covering for each other Such as Jessa n Jinger, jed and jer, and Johannah and jenny in the future. Im sure at this crazy ati conventions that if Jinger wanted to talk to a guy real quick, jessa would have no problem saying that they were going to go the bathroom or something. I think Jill would totally snitch though.

[Toothfairy]

Not that hard. Especially in fundie families, how can you an eye on everyone. I remember when I was a teen, so many christian kids even the ones from strict homes were doing sexual things touching each other or dry humping or masturbated in front of each other. It's not that hard to hide it.

I would also think that some fundie kids are curious. There's nothing wrong with masturbaation. It's healthy to explore your body. They could probably get away with it in the bathroom, shower or when everyone is asleep.

[Foudeb]

When there's a will there's a way.., that's why fundies are so scary, they try their best at crushing the will.

[nolongerIFBx]

I heard things, never knew if any of them were true. Of course, the one where the girl got pregnant and married, was at least partially true. Was the baby conceived in a closet at the Christian school? That is the part I would be pretty speculative of. The rumors about a guy? He also got a girl pregnant but he was out of HS for a few years by that time so who knows if the HS rumors about him were true.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I heard things, never knew if any of them were true. Of course, the one where the girl got pregnant and married, was at least partially true. Was the baby conceived in a closet at the Christian school? That is the part I would be pretty speculative of. The rumors about a guy? He also got a girl pregnant but he was out of HS for a few years by that time so who knows if the HS rumors about him were true.

One of my friends got pregnant on a church mission trip. No one thought it would happen because it was an all girls trip. The rumors flew about who the father was, though she never confirmed or denied any of them; so I still don't know which, if any, were true.

[polecat]

When there's a will there's a way.., that's why fundies are so scary, they try their best at crushing the will.

I remember once in my Christian Womanhood class (yes, this is a real thing at fundy U) where the instructor was teaching us how to break a child's will without breaking his/her spirit. I remember thinking at the time that it was kind of sick to be talking about breaking a child in any way. Now that I'm older and have my own kids, I find it even sicker. My kids all have strong wills, and I'm glad of it. I have no urge to break them.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think it only takes one kid from a less-than-perfect family to corrupt the others lol. There's always that kid who teaches the others what French kissing is, what sex is, etc.

Even in super strict places like the flds, teens will find a way to sneak around.

[Coco]

At my church, most of us grew up in families where we were fairly closely supervised, but we were also taught to police our own behavior so there was a lot of self-inflicted guilt attached to even pretty minor handholding, etc... I laugh now when I think of the various forms of sneaking around that went on. Most of it involved holding hands in the back of church under cover of hymnals or sneaking kisses on church hikes and so on. The young adult groups (anyone under 30 and unmarried - there was a men's circle and a women's circle) were charged with cleaning and organizing the nurseries and Sunday School rooms after church and there were definitely some clandestine makeout sessions going on there. I was visiting my parents and went to a church luncheon with them and one of the elders at our table got visibly annoyed and huffed, "The young adult circles always take so long to clean up the nurseries and I'm sure they're all gossiping and goofing off back there." I tried so hard not to laugh. If he only knew.

That being said, anyone who got caught faced some pretty serious consequences. If the couple seemed repentant and went on to get married, they would both still be accepted for the most part. If not, then both the man and woman would be seen as "damaged goods" and a lot of families would stop associating with them. You could grovel your way back into the good graces of most people, but from what I saw, it definitely took some time.

The self-inflicted guilt and fear of hell were how they tried to control the youth groups in my old church too. That and keeping the kids completely away from anything that had the remotest chance to stir up desires - books, movies, anything with kissing or that could give them unfulfilled desires for relationships before it was sanctioned. Kids didn't go to the movies, the library, or watch TV.

Well. The compliant kids didn't. :lol:

A few couples did get end up pregnant and had to get married, and the church eventually accepted them. But Mennonites are notorious for the gossip grapevine and failures follow people wherever they go, if they try to stay in the church.

[Fascinated]

These firsthand stories are so interesting! My impression was that these parents will have so thoroughly brainwashed their children into believing that they will lose god's favour by disobeying any of the stated rules that the kids wouldn't dream of overstepping. I assumed the majority (totality?) of fundie kids would simply be too afraid of the consequences (I.e. god's wrath, eternity in hell, shunned by family etc.) that they wouldn't dare take the risk. Many of you have cited examples though. So are those kids not fundie? Could you imagine a Duggar or any of the other fundie children discussed here overstepping in such a way? If so, then would it stand to reason that they have not, in fact, drunk the kool-aid? Or can you trust everything your parents have drilled into you as fact and still break the rules?

[FundieFarmer]

One of my friends got pregnant on a church mission trip. No one thought it would happen because it was an all girls trip. The rumors flew about who the father was, though she never confirmed or denied any of them; so I still don't know which, if any, were true.

Immaculate conception?

We had several of these stories at my Christian school. Never gets old.

[Coco]

Sorry to comment on this again but here's some naptime rambles :lol:

Navigating this topic with my kids terrifies me. I feel clueless on how to teach my kids since growing up my parents just tried to use separation from the world, isolation from media, abstinence teaching and guilt-tripping. I want my kids to have a youth with lots of great memories, but at the same time try to protect them from heartbreak and drama. My only plan on being a mom during this stage is to be a good listener, a shoulder to cry on and try to give advice on how to be a caring gf/bf. But then, that terrible panic of what if my daughter got pregnant before she was ready to be a mom, or the boy she loved was ready to be a dad. I want to be a grandma of course but the huge responsibility of a child and the way it changes everything... it's almost to the point where I'd like to recommend she get a depo shot or something by puberty because i have no illusions that they can be stronger than their feelings.

My husband and I still had a lot of fun and great dating experiences before our vows in spite of the culture we were raised in. I thought that because we had both walked away from most of the fundie lifestyle by the time we dated that we were the only ones living a regular dating life, besides a few openly promiscuous kids, but talking to old friends from the group I found out a lot of good kids pretending to obey the rules were having the same experiences. :lol: In the new generation of our old youth group, some of the preteen boys are obviously drawn to very close and loving relationships with their friends. I don't know how that church is handling that. They of course think same-sex relationships are forbidden. I don't know how they're going to navigate that. They might think it's okay until baptism or they might just be too clueless to see the signs. I don't know what I'll do if either of my kids are of that persuasion, either. My hubby would struggle to accept it. He's a great dad but he doesn't spend as much time worrying about parenting stuff as I do, lol, so I hope if that happens I can help him accept it.

The only regrets i have about the experiences my hubby and I had before marriage are if it grieved God but I am starting to think that love is love... while fear and hate, and using someone else selfishly, are the real sins.

imho one way to manage teaching about this as a parent is to handle every other lesson i have to teach the kids with as much respect and patience as possible. I want them to be able to trust me with the difficult stuff and I think it starts by making sure they know the lessons I try to teach them about being respectful and a good person are because i'm on their side, not against them. Too many fundie parents act like they're on opposite sides from their kids, making everything a battle of wills. Fundie parents try to control their kids wills and teach obedience out of fear. That's not a good foundation for kids to figure out how to have healthy relationships with their own selves or their romantic partners.

And along with this I hope I can teach my kids that a romantic relationship isn't everything in life. My daughter has other options than just the fundie-approved lifestyle I was taught of being a helpmeet who has to obey and submit to another flawed human. My son has other options than an unbalanced relationship where he has to figure out how to be the one responsible for everything. Having best friends of both sexes, playing sports or other physical opportunities to burn off some of that energy before it gets directed in a way that could hurt them, letting them go to college or get jobs and learn to be independent and have a focus for their lives beyond just the fundie ideal of success: marry, lots of kids, competition with the other young couples on who can have the most stuff or for the guy, be the boss of the most people either through owning a business or being in church authority. Those things are where a lot of the couples in that mennonite youth group focused their attention.

It just proves to me that one major way to help kids be self-confident is to let them have goals in life like college degrees where they can be a whole person without being defined by a relationship. Accomplishments in their lives to work toward that they earn on their own merit, that no relationship falling apart can ever destroy.

[Coco]

These firsthand stories are so interesting! My impression was that these parents will have so thoroughly brainwashed their children into believing that they will lose god's favour by disobeying any of the stated rules that the kids wouldn't dream of overstepping. I assumed the majority (totality?) of fundie kids would simply be too afraid of the consequences (I.e. god's wrath, eternity in hell, shunned by family etc.) that they wouldn't dare take the risk. Many of you have cited examples though. So are those kids not fundie? Could you imagine a Duggar or any of the other fundie children discussed here overstepping in such a way? If so, then would it stand to reason that they have not, in fact, drunk the kool-aid? Or can you trust everything your parents have drilled into you as fact and still break the rules?

It just depends on how strong their drives are, and how their parents raise them. Some fundie families are dysfunctional. The promiscuous kids in our youth group came from families with rumors of inappropriate sibling relationships and parental mistreatment. The sick thing about fundies is that they often don't want to involve the authorities. There is so little accountability beyond the brotherhood. If a guy has money and influence, corruption can be swept under the rug.

Of course there are also good families, people who are sincere in their faith. It really just depends on the drives of the kids if they end up going further than what's allowed. My church was the no-touch kind where they were supposed to have the distance of a Bible between them. Some kids lived it. Those were the more frigid ones who just didn't seem to have much of a sex drive. One of the elders once said he thought lesbianism was fine because it was like two friends just living together. Clueless about what it really is, lol. I really don't think many of the women knew much about pleasure. If these people with low drives marry and have kids by bland procreation they might pass on that trait, who knows. Anyway all i know about are Mennonites, who have generations of suppression going on in every area of life for all the things people normally lose control about. Well, besides food. Food was a huge deal. And a lot of sweets. Every gathering, bring some kind of elaborate thing. They really value being a great cook. The Saturday baking tradition is alive and well in Menno culture. :D It's a failure to them to not to have some kind of baking in the house at all times, bread or cookies or bars. I'm really glad my hubby doesn't require that.

Specific to the Duggars, yeah there's no lack of drive there. The golf course hump scene, the fact that JB&M had normal teen years, the innuendos... no wonder they had to marry Josh and Jessa off really young. :lol:

[BrownieMomma]

I remember once in my Christian Womanhood class (yes, this is a real thing at fundy U) where the instructor was teaching us how to break a child's will without breaking his/her spirit. I remember thinking at the time that it was kind of sick to be talking about breaking a child in any way. Now that I'm older and have my own kids, I find it even sicker. My kids all have strong wills, and I'm glad of it. I have no urge to break them.

That's the premise of Dobson/Ezzo/Pearl teachings - breaking the child's will.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

These firsthand stories are so interesting! My impression was that these parents will have so thoroughly brainwashed their children into believing that they will lose god's favour by disobeying any of the stated rules that the kids wouldn't dream of overstepping. I assumed the majority (totality?) of fundie kids would simply be too afraid of the consequences (I.e. god's wrath, eternity in hell, shunned by family etc.) that they wouldn't dare take the risk. Many of you have cited examples though. So are those kids not fundie? Could you imagine a Duggar or any of the other fundie children discussed here overstepping in such a way? If so, then would it stand to reason that they have not, in fact, drunk the kool-aid? Or can you trust everything your parents have drilled into you as fact and still break the rules?

The problem isn't whether they're fundie or not, the problem stems from telling people they absolutely can not. It's the same reason prohibitions don't work, why kids in abstinence only regions end up pregnant more often than those taught safe sex, why teens get DUIs, why people try drugs despite the drugs being illegal. Science has even shown children in authoritarian families (like fundies) are more likely to rebel (whether their parents find out or not than those in authoritative families. Being restrictive and without offering discussions causes people to act out.

[JayElBee]

I remember once in my Christian Womanhood class (yes, this is a real thing at fundy U) where the instructor was teaching us how to break a child's will without breaking his/her spirit. I remember thinking at the time that it was kind of sick to be talking about breaking a child in any way. Now that I'm older and have my own kids, I find it even sicker. My kids all have strong wills, and I'm glad of it. I have no urge to break them.

I have heard advice about "breaking a child's will" myself in regards to "training" my children (husband's family used to be fundy-lites).

I found that so, so troubling.

In regards to camp, none of my in-laws have been or ever would have been sent to camp. Except "family camp" - but i doubt anything is going on there.

[Fascinated]

The problem isn't whether they're fundie or not, the problem stems from telling people they absolutely can not. It's the same reason prohibitions don't work, why kids in abstinence only regions end up pregnant more often than those taught safe sex, why teens get DUIs, why people try drugs despite the drugs being illegal. Science has even shown children in authoritarian families (like fundies) are more likely to rebel (whether their parents find out or not than those in authoritative families. Being restrictive and without offering discussions causes people to act out.

Yes, absolutely I understand that. My question pertains to what these kids actually believe. So far there has been no indication that any of the now adult Duggar kids (for example) have strayed from their parents' Gothard decreed training. So we therefore surmise that they will be raising their families in much the same manner, although, granted, we don't know that with certainty yet. Can the same be said of the kids who engage in illicit 'romantic' activities? (I'm having difficulty expressing this coherently.) In other words, if a child 'sins' by breaking courtship rules, for example, then does it follow that they don't actually BELIEVE that they are sinning and, by extension, that they don't BELIEVE the 'teachings' of their parents? Does the action negate the belief? (If this isn't making sense just carry on without me. I need a latte or something.)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Coco:

You sound like you are on the right track with your daughter.

My oldest (Girl 1) is 15, and she's currently studying thousands of miles away. I know she has a boyfriend. Having her so far away is a bit scary at times, but I'm reassured that we talk/Facetime on a regular basis, and that she was willing to tell me about the boyfriend (who seems to be a very nice guy) when we visited. I drilled her during her health unit on sex ed, so I know that she knows all about contraception and STDs and added in my own points on top. She keeps telling me that she's a virgin, and I hope that's true, but I need to believe that she's making decisions not based on fear and control, but on the basis on what she's learned and decided for herself.

Yes, her program is well-supervised -but I know first-hand that an even stricter program didn't stop her father and I (and she is also in a place with bomb shelters). She needs to make good, safe decisions because SHE recognizes that it's important, knows what the risks are and knows how to handle them.

*We aren't totally hands-off and indifferent. We know who the boy is, know members of his family and have managed to ask around about him and do our research. So far, we like him.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Yes, absolutely I understand that. My question pertains to what these kids actually believe. So far there has been no indication that any of the now adult Duggar kids (for example) have strayed from their parents' Gothard decreed training. So we therefore surmise that they will be raising their families in much the same manner, although, granted, we don't know that with certainty yet. Can the same be said of the kids who engage in illicit 'romantic' activities? (I'm having difficulty expressing this coherently.) In other words, if a child 'sins' by breaking courtship rules, for example, then does it follow that they don't actually BELIEVE that they are sinning and, by extension, that they don't BELIEVE the 'teachings' of their parents? Does the action negate the belief? (If this isn't making sense just carry on without me. I need a latte or something.)

Not necessarily. Most people question their beliefs at some point in adolescence, but coming back to and embracing their beliefs is also very common. Also, I know a person who was raised in a verging on fundie catholic family and had an abortion. She will not tell anyone who didn't know her at the time that such an event happened and she's VERY pro-life now. (She had her abortion at 17 and she's 26 now.) She says her abortion was driven by a lapse of faith and shouldn't have been an option because it allowed the devil into her life.

[Fascinated]

Hmm. That's very convenient? I guess I understand but admit I'm having a little trouble getting my head around it. Seems like it can't be both ways but with logic like you've explained, I suppose it makes some sense.