Dominion-Oriented Femininity: Botkins Lecture Review

[Pandora Moon]

I'm afraid this is going to be a long one so grab a drink and a snack before you start reading. Keep in mind this is only 7 minutes worth of note as I haven't listened to the rest yet, so enjoy! :)

A male voice says that he is introducing two young ladies who have been giving serious thought to how they might, even when they are under the jurisdiction of their father, become leaders of society and culture by not lording it over men or by teaching them but by the way they carry themselves, how they speak and by redefining things that have been grossly perverted in our day like the word femininity.

Then Anna-Sofia speaks, and I have to say that she sounds a lot like Scully from the x files. Anyway she says that one of the things her father talked about is how America is headed for judgment and how uncertain the future is. She then says that words like judgment, war, and economy may sound manly but they affect women too as they live in the same world as their fathers and husbands so they are not too young or girly to think about these topics.

She then says that one of the concerning things about America’s future is that most women don’t know how to be strong anymore and are not ready to face hard times and hardships the way they used to be. And that when you look at pictures of the pilgrim mothers and women that settled the wild west and Plymouth you see strength and virtue which women today don’t have. Women today also don’t have the stamina to face the trials that women faced 200 years ago as they have lost the "strong-world" character that American women used to be known for.

Anna-Sofia then claims that the fact that America exists is due to dominion-oriented femininity of Pilgrim women and the fact they sacrificed their lives for people they never knew. She doesn’t immediately explain what she means by “people they did not see†until she says that the Pilgrim women were willing to make their lives harder for “the eternal good†of those that came after them. And that the spoilt, selfish women of the 21st century cannot imagine the trials that the Pilgrim women went though.

Anna- Sofia then quotes this monument in Plymouth which says that the Pilgrim women “brought up their families in sturdy virtue in a living faith of God and without which nations perishâ€

Then at the 3:24 minute mark she reads something from this French guy in the 1830’s, whose name I can’t even begin to spell which is why I made a note of the time so people can check his name, who visited the states and was stuck by the superior strength and character of American women and he says that he attributed America’s prosperity to the superiority of their women. If someone asked Anna-Sofia what she thought attributes to the growing apostasy and wickedness in America it would be the selfishness and pettiness of their women.

She says that today’s women are not just lesser or weaker but also opposite to Pilgrim women and says that while Pilgrim women would’ve sacrificed themselves for their children and that now women sacrifice their children in the womb to their selfishness and that we need to understand what has been lost.

She then says that everyone has suffered from weakness due to Feminism’s legacy even if they have rejected it. Women are still confused about the basic principles of family relations, gender roles and even the meaning of womanhood. God has put us into unique time in history because we’re looking at a generation who doesn’t know what it means to be a woman.

When Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth were writing their book, I’m guessing So Much More since they don’t mention which book, and they kept using the words biblical femininity throughout the book and their mum comes to them and says she’s not sure if she liked the word femininity, as according to Anna-Sofia it has bad connotations, and she asks the sisters what does femininity mean and it turned out that neither Anna-Sofia or Elizabeth knew what it meant.

Anna-Sofia then says that feminism has left women separated from history and confused and desolate. And how this may be a good thing as it gives women a chance to rebuild culture of strong womanhood on fountains of scripture.

Next will be the ten characteristics that women will need to face the hardships that are coming according to Anna Sofia and Elizabeth.

[GeoBQn]

She then says that one of the concerning things about America’s future is that most women don’t know how to be strong anymore and are not ready to face hard times and hardships the way they used to be. And that when you look at pictures of the pilgrim mothers and women that settled the wild west and Plymouth you see strength and virtue which women today don’t have. Women today also don’t have the stamina to face the trials that women faced 200 years ago as they have lost the "strong-world" character that American women used to be known for.

I think the same is equally true for men. If an asteroid hit Earth tomorrow and whipped out 50% of the population, two weeks later there would be guys who are still in their basements, trying to get the X-Box to work and order pizza.

[PrairieGirl]

"Women today also don’t have the stamina to face the trials that women faced 200 years ago as they have lost the "strong-world" character that American women used to be known for."

This is such crap. Modern women don't have to face nearly the same struggles that women 200 years ago faced. As the world has evolved, women have evolved as well. That doesn't make us any less strong. I believe we women have the same fortitude our ancestors had. We just display it differently, because we live in an entirely different world than they did.

I truly hate the bullshit these two spew. They need to unzip their bubble one day and spend some time in the real world.

[Want More Babies]

hen at the 3:24 minute mark she reads something from this French guy in the 1830’s, whose name I can’t even begin to spell which is why I made a note of the time so people can check his name, who visited the states and was stuck by the superior strength and character of American women and he says that he attributed America’s prosperity to the superiority of their women. If someone asked Anna-Sofia what she thought attributes to the growing apostasy and wickedness in America it would be the selfishness and pettiness of their women.

That would be Alex de Tocqueville

http://www.xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/D ... ocqueville

[Pandora Moon]

That would be Alex de Tocqueville

http://www.xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/D ... ocqueville

Thanks for that Want More Babies. I've just released I forgot to add the link where you can download the lecture for free

westernconservatory.com/store/free

It's the top one.

[Pandora Moon]

I think the same is equally true for men. If an asteroid hit Earth tomorrow and whipped out 50% of the population, two weeks later there would be guys who are still in their basements, trying to get the X-Box to work and order pizza.

I agree, I especially like "not ready to face hard times" as it's a rare person who is ready to face hard times gender has got nothing to do with it.

[SoybeanQueen]

What horrific struggles have these Botkin sisters faced that make them worthy to pass judgment on all other women? How do they know how other women fare during hard times?

I know several women who have had awful circumstances befall them. They figured out how to deal when that time came. Screw the Botkins for assuming all women are weaklings who can't handle life.

[nokidsmom]

Funny how these two criticize other women from their little protective fundie princess bubble.

[nausicaa]

What horrific struggles have these Botkin sisters faced that make them worthy to pass judgment on all other women? How do they know how other women fare during hard times?

I know several women who have had awful circumstances befall them. They figured out how to deal when that time came. Screw the Botkins for assuming all women are weaklings who can't handle life.

I know women who have had to pull themselves up from nothing, often while taking care of multiple children.

I consider myself as having a pretty average life, but I've still had to deal with a lot more on my own than the Botkins ever had to. I put myself through school, traveled by myself, work a job that requires me to actually wake up by 7am every morning and do what someone else tells me to do. And that salary I get has to cover all my bills before I can buy cute skirts and have my tousled hair styled.

[Pandora Moon]

I've just finished listening to Characteristic Number 1 out of the 10 and am going to write them in separate posts so they won't get long again.

1. A Dominion Woman is a woman of God.

Anna says the first thing to understand is that what we want really doesn't matter. She says that when her and Elizabeth were writing their book, again she doesn't mention a title so I'm going to guess 'So Much More', people kept asking what are they going to do with their life. Which is a loaded question as they weren't just asking what careers they would have but it really means are we going to pursue what we want for our lives or what God wants for our lives?

She then quotes this from the Canterbury Tales:

What every woman wants most is to have her own way

Which Anna says sums up the essence of feminism which is a desire to be a law unto ourselves and to usurp God's authority for ourselves what's right and wrong for ourselves to be god or goddess. This stands against God's and authority and against God himself.

The Dominion-Oriented Woman is submitted entirely to God as to what her life will be. She says 'I'm not God you are God not my will be done but your will be done'. The way she knows what God's will is is to seek scripture on her own doesn't wait for someone else to tell her what to do or how to live.

Anna then says that these principles that the sisters are sharing won't make sense or work for you if you don't truly fear God as your sovereign and head as it's not our way but God's way.

[Pandora Moon]

The way she knows what God's will is is to seek scripture on her own doesn't wait for someone else to tell her what to do or how to live.

I just wanted to comment on this part as I once actually advised someone on youtube to look at the bible and work it out for themselves and I got Proverbs 3:5 thrown at me which says to trust God and not to lean on your own understanding.

So I find it interesting that a fundie is actually recommending this.

[docmom]

Pot meet kettle...

The Botkin sisters would curl up into little balls if they had to face actual life in Plymouth or the Western frontier. Life back then was very hard- for everyone- and it was dirty and smelly and painful. Those women didn't sit in their parlours embroidering and spewing forth Bible verses, they were out helping with the farm. They were the original feminists- before women got put on their pedestals.

[CloakNDagger]

Pot meet kettle...

The Botkin sisters would curl up into little balls if they had to face actual life in Plymouth or the Western frontier. Life back then was very hard- for everyone- and it was dirty and smelly and painful. Those women didn't sit in their parlours embroidering and spewing forth Bible verses, they were out helping with the farm. They were the original feminists- before women got put on their pedestals.

It might be true, but you don't know that for a fact, though. There are actually some tough girls in the community. Some of the girls in San Antonio come to mind. Their circumstances are sad. They put up a good facade, though.

[fundiefan]

Yes, it makes total sense for the women of the world to listen to and judge their worth by the words and beliefs of two SAHD's who are known to revise history to suit their needs and who have never been outside their father's (so called) protection.

The height of hubris...

[salex]

Anna then says that these principles that the sisters are sharing won't make sense or work for you if you don't truly fear God as your sovereign and head as it's not our way but God's way.

This sort of statement always convinces me that they are preaching "The Emporers New Religion".

[Georgiana]

I like how they think that the world back in the day was pure and wholesome and all that jazz.

There are PLENTY of primary sources (Laura Ingalls Wilder's letters being one) that indicate that life back on the frontiers was gritty, dirty, rude, and often obscene. There's a letter from Wilder where she discusses dissatisfaction with her editor (and daughter) removing a certain passage from one of her books because it was not suitable for children. She talks about how a 5 year old wouldn't have been shocked by this passage in her day, and how kids "today" (aka back when the letter was written) are so sheltered and juvenile.

Pioneer women saw some shit. And they handled it. They weren't these pure little flowers that AS and E like to pretend they were.

[ViolaSebastian]

It might be true, but you don't know that for a fact, though. There are actually some tough girls in the community. Some of the girls in San Antonio come to mind. Their circumstances are sad. They put up a good facade, though.

History time! I think it would be more than fair to say that it's not just the Botkin Sisters that wouldn't fare well at Plymouth of on the Western Frontier--I think most modern PEOPLE (i.e. not just women) would have a difficult time living life in either of these two time periods. Life back then was nasty, brutish, and short. At Plymouth, disease was rampant, people were living in tents and dug-outs for a good chunk of time, starvation was a real issue, it was filthy, women were frequently pregnant, had no medical care, and no "Plan B" for a homebirth gone wrong, and people worked almost constantly from the time they were old enough (you know, five or six) until the day they died (young)--and not just pushing papers around for eight hours work, I mean hard, physical labor. The Native Americans weren't thrilled that they had arrived, as the pilgrims managed to steal some of their corn stores right off the boat) and there were skirmishes until a peace treaty could be established.

Even the pilgrims couldn't handle the conditions at Plymouth Colony--of a planned 19 households, only 7 were established because people were dying off in droves. By the time of the famous "First Thanksgiving", only FOUR women of the original 18 adult women on board the Mayflower managed to make it through the first winter. (As a side note, three total Pilgrim douche bags decided to bring their wives with them in the third trimester of their pregnancies...doesn't this seem to be shades of someone we all love snark on?) The morality rate of the female pilgrims was much higher because they weren't out in the fresh air felling trees, drinking fresh water, hunting anacondas, and exploring; no, the women were confined to the damp, unsanitary, and crowded. The sick were treated on board the Mayflower as well, so disease spread like wildfire under those conditions.

The Western Frontier was more of the same--filthy conditions, rampant disease, constant pregnancies and difficult births, and hard, hard and constant physical labor. Women frequently had no other choice than to engage in prostitution, because they were either "soiled" women or women who had come on difficult times and had to support their families. Prostitutes were in extremely high demand due to the uneven number of women to men, but that offered up a whole different set of problems, including rampant STIs, pregnancies (and the dangerous abortions that they underwent), and the risk of violence. Oh, and did I mention rape was another problem on the frontier, for both prostitutes and 'upright' housewives alike due to this imbalance.

Native American attacks were also a big problem, one in which men and women lived in constant fear. (I'm not stating that they didn't have a reason to defend their land, just that it was a fear of white settlers.) Women had to be brave and determined just to protect their families. They had to know how to load and shoot a rifle, they had to know how to drive a wagon team, they had to know how to ford a wagon across a river--things that might have been unheard of when they lived back east. They had no choice, they did it or they died. I think that that required toughness and hard work was a big reason why women's suffrage first came about in Montana and Wyoming--women were expected to hold their own and it was felt they should be rewarded for it.

And don't forget about the Chinese-American and African-American women who got to face all this plus the added bonus of ignorance and racism.

In other words, I have no doubt that there are some tough cookies in the VF, but it's ridiculous to think that they (or anyone else) would have anything but a really, really bad time in Plymouth Colony or on the Western Frontier. That's not a dig at them, it's just that modern life is so far removed from that way of life that anyone would find the hardships difficult to bear.

[treemom]

And the difference of course is that most of us who couldn't handle are also not romanticizing it or pretending like women are weak vessels.

[MamaJunebug]

She then quotes this from the Canterbury Tales:

What every woman wants most is to have her own way

And what every man wants is ... any different?

Moms Botkin disapproved of the word "femininity" and challenged her daughters to define it, which they couldn't. What kind of homeschooling went on in that house, I ask you?

PS: forgive my glibness, but isn't femininity the noun form of the adjective feminine? Meaning, related to the female, the not-masculine? Not rocket science, Moms.

[Olive Plant]

"She then says that everyone has suffered from weakness due to Feminism’s legacy even if they have rejected it. Women are still confused about the basic principles of family relations, gender roles and even the meaning of womanhood. God has put us into unique time in history because we’re looking at a generation who doesn’t know what it means to be a woman."

According to one of their other talks, A-S and Elizabeth are also confused about these things. Or misunderstood. Or both. But it's probably everyone else's fault.

This talk seems a lot like most of the other stuff they've preached. I've even read some of those same quotes before. So much hyperbole and craziness. We DON'T EVEN KNOW what it's like to be a woman because we're not Puritans in the colonies! Plus Abortion exists! And clearly it didn't ever before modern times! So women now are totally different breeds of humans! Just do what the Bible says and forget about anything else! Don't follow your heart! Even if it's saying, stay away from your creepy pastor… oh, wait, no, never mind, maybe, but remember, real women still follow authority!

I will say that most of my female friends are athletic and knowledgable enough that I think they'd have a better time surviving in the colonies than most people, certainly better than the Botkin sisters/the Botkin family. They garden, do triathlons, own their own homes (they were all better at making and saving money than their boyfriends and husbands), can survive in the wilderness alone, and do so for fun. But they're weak because the Botkins say so.

It becomes more and more obvious that the Botkins (and many fundies) have a toxic combination of willful ignorance and hubris about anyone different than them.

Part of me wants to see the apocalypse arrive just so the fundies have to survive it and stop talking about how the rest of the world is so weak. They're all such pasty-looking, self-aggrandizing, tech-needy, doughy excuses for hardiness, including the men, that it's hard to imagine they'd figure out a way to live once the canned goods ran out. (I guess this is why they stockpile canned goods).

[clarinetpower]

BBC/PBS did a series of reality shows a few years ago putting people in those situations. There was the 1900 house, Colonial house, prairie, etc. they were fascinating. Might still be available online. There were fundies that participated in the colonial one because of the religious stuff, and they learned a big lesson by the end. It was fabulous.

[Jasmar]

Oh, I loved those series! I'd personally pay money (okay not really, but I do love me some hyperbole) to see those two working as downstairs staff in Edwardian House, emptying the insufferable Oliff-Coopers chamber pots. :D

[ViolaSebastian]

BBC/PBS did a series of reality shows a few years ago putting people in those situations. There was the 1900 house, Colonial house, prairie, etc. they were fascinating. Might still be available online. There were fundies that participated in the colonial one because of the religious stuff, and they learned a big lesson by the end. It was fabulous.

I remember them doing the 1900 house (it was in Britain, right?), as well as a Frontier House--I recall that one because it actually played a hand in breaking up the marriage of two of the participants. Plus there was a wealthy family from Malibu that was just...not equipped to deal with those conditions, to put it kindly. The goal of the show was that they prepared properly to survive the winter, and they were found by the judges to be cheating by trading with the (modern) locals. :shakehead2:

I remember the 1900s house family ran into trouble because the mother, who was in charge of all the cooking, decided to continue with the family's modern vegetarian lifestyle. The butcher that they hired to dress up in period clothing and sell them meat thought she was bananas for trying it. I also remember she had to hire a woman to do the housework, because she just couldn't hack it. Also the mother was hoping to shave her legs with a straight razor...

I know I couldn't make it in that time period just based on imagining the body odor on people....phewww. That's what I think of when I watch those lovely period dramas with the fancy dresses and top hats...just how badly everyone smelled, and the perfume on top of it. Like old, hot garbage that someone sprayed Glade around in an attempt to lessen the stench, but now it just smells like hot garbage AND fake flowers...

I didn't know they did a Colonial one, I'll have to check that out.

[Pandora Moon]

Elizabeth reads out second point but after that Anna-Sofia speaks again.

2. A Dominion-Oriented woman understands difference between real femininity and false femininity.

There are lots of theories about femininity that need to be examined biblically like femininity is opposite to masculinity as while women may be different from men but that doesn’t make them opposites.

Another theory is that femininity is whatever feminism has rejected which is bad hermunics as we have to be careful that we don’t build our philosophy of womanhood based on a knee-jerk reaction to something bad as though the bad thing determines our morality the bible is only standard and it should be motivation to do right.

Feminism has around since the Garden of Eden with advocates in every century. According to Anna, the meaning of femininity is simple and can be seen in first few chapters in the bible. Genesis 2 reveals essence of femininity by showing how Eve was meant to correlate with Adam as God said that it is not good for man to be alone and he will make a helper suitable for him.

The woman was made for man as it says in 1 Corinthians 11:9. Anna doesn’t actually quote the passage so I will.

1 Corinthians 11:9 King James Version

Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

A woman is a different creature her role is different from man as seen in Genesis 3 (I don’t know where as Anna doesn’t give a verse) and woman looks different as seen in Deuteronomy 22:5 again Anna doesn’t quote the passage so here it is

Deuteronomy 22:5 King James Version

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God

.

(I’m not sure how this is relevant as this is to do with clothes not a woman’s body and anyway men and women wore similar clothing in biblical times didn’t they?)

We should rejoice in differences because that makes us compliment to the man. The purpose of this difference is to help masculinity be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth.

True femininity is about helping men fulfill their calling any departure from this is departing from biblical femininity.

Throughout the bible and history there have been two kinds of womanhood, the kind that devotes identity to help men fulfill calling and the kind that wants power over men. Feminism is always independent and self-seeking and desire to weaken and dominate men (Oh you mean in the same way patriarchy seeks to weaken and dominate women?)

At 14:54 Anna quotes from a Rev William Einwinter/Einwriter? He explains that Hebrew word for help (though Anna makes it sound like hell) as in helpmeet comes from two roots 1st to rescue or save and 2nd to be strong and it indicates someone with an ability to help those in need.

A woman will only figure out her purpose in life by helping a man realising his. Something that Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth suffered with, when they were little, was how to appreciate men and the world they live in. Anna was girly wearing pink costumes, skipping, singing and quoting lines from romantic poetry and would look down at what her brothers were doing in the mud outside. Which according to Anna is a feministic attitude to take and as she grew up she had disdain for masculinity “I’m pink there’re blue†and says that considering yourself different from men is not biblical at all. (This contradicts her earlier statement about how men and women are different but not opposites.)

Anna-Sofia & Elizabeth have been asked by people whether it is feminine to be inspired by masculinity and to enjoy things that their fathers and brothers enjoy. Anna says it is feminine to do that and in fact it is feministic to have contempt for manly things. Feminism isn’t about staying indoors eating sugar and cream and cross-stitching.

Next will be point number 4. Yeah for some reason they skipped number 3.

[apple1]

Gag. Puke.

This crap disgusts me - a mother of daughters and a grandmother of a granddaughter - as much - actually more - than a lot of the other stuff that we discuss on FJ.

I think this is actually more harmful - in the sense of affecting more people - than crap like Shrader, or crap like the Andersons spout. A lot of people who have enough sense to see through Shrader and Anderson will still buy into this garbage spouted by two pretty women dressed in pretty clothing.

Also, I'll eat my hat if this was actually written by these two. I suspect it was written by Daddy.