First time obedience

[danvillebelle]

I think that was Brett Smith, talking about his daughter Kressant (now) Morton. He said she'd literally never been allowed to make a decision up until that point.

When I spent a week in a psychiatric hospital a year and a half ago, there was a young woman in the unit with me who was like this. She was admitted for extreme OCD (hand-washing among other things) and having gotten physically violent with family members.

I have never seen someone so indecisive in my entire life. Ever. During group sessions, when she spoke, every phrase would end with her intonation going up, making it sound like she was asking approval for what she was saying. When the therapist would try to explain to her how she sounded, and that SHE had the right to decide how she felt, she seemed utterly baffled. She couldn't make a decision about what to do in free time, a nurse would have to tell her. When we watched tv she never made a peep as to any preferences, it was always "whatever ya'll want is fine." She was 24 years old, and she never made any daily decisions beyond what to wear, what to read or whether to go for a walk or not that day. No job, no friends, no life outside the home whatsoever.

I felt so bad for her because there was obviously a bright, engaging young woman under there waiting to get out. I had the misfortune to overhear her mother once in the visiting room and she was chewing her out, berating her, on and on about "do you know what we're sacrificing to have you in here?" UGH. When I was released, she'd been there for 3 weeks (it was a short-term facility) with barely any improvement. She was heading to a clinic elsewhere that dealt with OCD exclusively. The only decision she was capable of making was to engage in her compulsive behaviors.

I don't know if she was fundie or not, but my guess would be probably. These morons are setting their daughters up for mental illness, truly, especially if they already have a genetic tendency in that direction.

ETA: she only had one set of clothing that she wore and then washed every single night. Her parents wouldn't bring her any more. :cry:

[Sobeknofret]

I've always felt that my son is going to be an adult for a lot longer than he's going to be a kid, and tried to raise him with the character traits he's going to need as an adult--perseverance, the ability to make his own decisions and think his own thoughts, independence, a healthy ability to question and understand-- despite the fact that it might make it more difficult for me in the short-term.

I look at Josh Duggar and see exactly the opposite; he and his siblings have been trained to first time obedience, a deference to any kind of "authority" whether it be in their best interests or not, unquestioning, unthinking submission, and an unhealthy dependance on the community to pick up their slack. All of which makes them easier to deal with when you have 19 children to raise, but makes for piss-poor adults. Josh has no impulse control, no firmness of character, no self-reliance, and no sense of selflessness or charity, and he's been suddenly thrown into an environment at his new "job" where all of these things are necessary to succeed and thrive. If any of the Duggars, or any of the fundies we snark on, succeed in developing these traits, it will be *despite* their parents, not *because* of them.

[debrand]

Have any of you heard of cheerful, first time obedience?

This forum has a discussion of it. Of course, I want my kids to do as I ask, but I never cared if they grumbled. Sometimes I grumble too

forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/31014-for-those-who-advocate-cheerful-first-time-obedience-can-i-ask-a-few-questions/

[moodygirl86]

First-time obedience has no value to anyone except the fundie parents who are desperately trying to make the job of raising multiple children easier by erasing their individual personalities

And if anything, the time and effort they put into teaching first-time obedience for their own convenience could be just as easily put into teaching the kids to think critically.

[Hane]

I've said many times that the concept of first-time obedience, like many of our fundies' discipline techniques, is just plain intellectually lazy, and flies in the face of normal child developmental principles. These people never take into consideration that an infant, toddler, preschooler, tween, and teenager all have different thought and behavior patterns, and that children are INDIVIDUALS, with different personalities and traits. What works on one may not work on another.

No--just better to crank out an army of little clones for Jeebus, to fit in better with their fundie culture and community.

And, what moodygirl86 said about critical thinking. It can and should be developed in more complex and nuanced ways as children grow older. In the '70s, a movie called Sounder (about a poor black family in the deep South) had a scene in which the main character's (black, female) schoolteacher taught her students critical thinking skills, encouraging the kids to challenge each other if they heard something that didn't sound credible.

[CelticGoddess]

Sadly, there are Gothard families who send their daughters off to school to become nurses, teachers, etc. I worked with a nurse who grew up in a Gothard home. (Oh, the horror stories she told me. Her father was "close" to Gothard. Mainly because he gave money to the slime ball)

Any way, first time obedience was expected in her home. It does not translate well when it comes to nursing. She was a very sweet lady, however, she lacked critical thinking skills. She would just blindly follow whatever the doctor said to do, even if it could be detrimental to the patient. The joke that "I am here to keep the doctor from killing you" has some truth to it. She struggled with disagreeing with the doctor, even if he was wrong. Because she was raised to not disagree or go against those in authority.

She is a very nice person, and I wish her well but the "first time obedience" she learned as a child definitely did not help her in the long run. She got away from her family but she is struggling.

[bananacat]

When I spent a week in a psychiatric hospital a year and a half ago, there was a young woman in the unit with me who was like this. She was admitted for extreme OCD (hand-washing among other things) and having gotten physically violent with family members.

I have never seen someone so indecisive in my entire life. Ever. During group sessions, when she spoke, every phrase would end with her intonation going up, making it sound like she was asking approval for what she was saying. When the therapist would try to explain to her how she sounded, and that SHE had the right to decide how she felt, she seemed utterly baffled. She couldn't make a decision about what to do in free time, a nurse would have to tell her. When we watched tv she never made a peep as to any preferences, it was always "whatever ya'll want is fine." She was 24 years old, and she never made any daily decisions beyond what to wear, what to read or whether to go for a walk or not that day. No job, no friends, no life outside the home whatsoever.

I felt so bad for her because there was obviously a bright, engaging young woman under there waiting to get out. I had the misfortune to overhear her mother once in the visiting room and she was chewing her out, berating her, on and on about "do you know what we're sacrificing to have you in here?" UGH. When I was released, she'd been there for 3 weeks (it was a short-term facility) with barely any improvement. She was heading to a clinic elsewhere that dealt with OCD exclusively. The only decision she was capable of making was to engage in her compulsive behaviors.

I don't know if she was fundie or not, but my guess would be probably. These morons are setting their daughters up for mental illness, truly, especially if they already have a genetic tendency in that direction.

ETA: she only had one set of clothing that she wore and then washed every single night. Her parents wouldn't bring her any more. :cry:

Just for some perspective, indecisiveness is a somewhat common symptom of OCD. Everyone thinks OCD is about hand-washing and tapping your foot exactly 6 times, but there are tons of other symptoms too. I've never been as bad as this patient, but there were times in my life when I spent 15 minutes in a grocery store trying to decide which junk food to buy. I felt like I had to think of all the things I had eaten recently and was likely to eat in the near future, and rank them all based on how similar to the treats I was considering, because I had this fear of having a non-optimal experience and of regretting my decision later. Like, if I bought cake instead of ice cream, but then had cake later that week for a work function, then I might regret missing out on the ice cream. And by that time I had already been an independent, decision-making adult for 6 years plus I had a lot of independence as a teenager. For me, the crushing indecisiveness was limited to weirdly specific situations and I responded well to therapy. I can imagine it would be so much tougher for this woman who never had any freedom and who didn't have supportive family on her side.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The next time anyone preaches the virtues of first-time obedience, refer them to page 130 of "To Kindle a Soul" - a religious parenting book that promotes holistic, positive parenting.

Here are some great quotes:

Despots are satisfied with obedience, and therefore they love violence. Because it inspires fear, violence seems to control behavior. In some cases, violence really does control behavior, producing robotic rule-followers. But violence does not cultivate moral values, so it most cases it only controls behavior while the threatening authorities are present...Violence is not the tool for creating a mature citizenry....If we want to produce people with integrity, internally driven by a specific value system, we must utilize gentle means.

...We learn best from those whom we feel love us...In light of this, parents and teachers must consider whether yelling, spanking, and other potentially harsh styles of discipline endanger our crucial conduit for transmitting values: relationship.

At the risk of Godwin-ing myself, I also have to say that I don't associate "just following orders" with moral behavior - I associate it with Nazis on trial on Nuremberg. If that's where blind obedience leads, I want no part of it.

[wayward]

At the risk of Godwin-ing myself, I also have to say that I don't associate "just following orders" with moral behavior - I associate it with Nazis on trial on Nuremberg. If that's where blind obedience leads, I want no part of it.

If you look at some of the ideas about child-rearing in Germany and stories of some of the Nazis, blind obedience is pretty much how they were raised. Watch the movie "The White Ribbon" -- apparently not too far off.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I found this list of advantages for First Time Obedience:

babywisemom.com/2011/11/first-time-obedience-first-things-first.html

First-time obedience is important for many reasons including:

It sets clear expectations for the child.

If you teach obedience, you don't have to teach anything else.

It helps you decide when a correction is necessary; disobedience is

disobedience.

It teaches your child to obey your word and not rely on bribes or rewards for

motivation.

It teaches your child to submit to your authority and adopt an attitude of

submission when obedience is required.

When your life is not fraught with disobedience, your days are happier and

your relationship with your child grows stronger.

If you teach moral values (through obedience) when he's little, you give

yourselves many years of a trusting, loving relationship.

The bolded parts are particularly problematic to me.

Not teach anything else? Really?

My goal as a parent is to raise children who will be good, moral adults. I will not always be by their side. I need to be able to know that I've prepared them to act in a good and moral way, even when I'm not around, and even if it means going against the crowd.

I've also not sure what an attitude of submission even looks like. I prefer to talk about an attitude of respect. I do expect my kids to show respect to my husband and I, and listening to us is part of that, but I wouldn't call it submission.