First time obedience

[Meeka]

I have noticed a lot of the blogs that we talk about here are big on teaching their children first time obedience. One of the reasons that they give is that employers/bosses expect obedience from their employees.

I work in a technical role which requires a university degree and over the past year or so have been getting into a more supervisory role. I would not want nor would I expect obedience from my employees just because I say so. I invite and expect question, recommendations on other ways to do things and ideas. I do know that you can get truly disagreeable employees sometimes but who really wants employees to obey without question. The workplace and work wouldn't evolve and get better. Just another example of black and white thinking I guess.

[lizziesmom]

Since so many of them don't want their children going out in the real world and being anyone's employee, that argument doesn't make any sense.

[hoipolloi]

As obsessed as they are with sexual purity & innocence, they don't seem to understand that training a kid to respond a la "first time obedience" is setting them up for molestation by an older person.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Let me give an example of my work history:

- Escrow Officer ($60 - $70k a year): Minimal supervision, extreme responsibility, ability top make own decisions and exercise judgment vital and expected

- Starbucks ($8 - $9 an HOUR): Everything regimented, procedure for all activity, expected to report to immediate supervisor and follow schedule set by management

Yeah, train up those Godly little soldiers to provide for their large families - definitely a good plan.

[Cran]

Do they really use that argument? I always had the impression most of them go for "God-given authority over children" or something like that.

And with the results SOTDRT shows, the most realistic job chances the boys have are low-level jobs, and if your job is to stack boxes or sweep the floor, they would be, as sad as it is, adequately prepared if the obey in an instant without questioning. Even sadder, with such a mentality, they will never be able to fill a position where critical thought and creativity is required, unless they have an enormous amount of willpower to overcome the indoctrination they received. And if they do not, this will most likely result in a perpetuation of the family model they already know: Earning low wages, feeding an ever-growing family on it, stroke your own dissatisfied ego by ordering your family around and raising them to have no more possibilities than their parents.

[Meeka]

I know that Kelly Crawford has used that as one of her reasons.

In my job, if I just smiled and agreed with everything my boss told me I would have limited value to him and the company.

It seems like that type of obedience would only be needed in low paying jobs. O

[August]

It's also interesting to think of it from the boys perspective (we know their parenting of girls sucks great big hairy donkey balls). Those boys have to go from instant obedience to calling the shots. No wonder Smuggar is such a loser. I pity the wives of the second generation.

[ILoveJellybeans]

They dont want their children to question them, as if they teach kids to question, they will stop being fundie. Theres also how they like having power over someone. Michael Pearl seems so proud of how he trained his kids in first time obedience that his adult children are still hardwired to obey him even when it doesnt make sense (like dropping a cold drink because he said it was hot).

What is a kid raised with first time obedience going to do if an authority figure told them to do something bad or molested them?

How many fundie wives get raped because they are taught that sex needs to be done whenever the headship asks?

How is someone raised like that going to be the boss of a company one day, when they are afraid to make an unnapproved move cause every time they did that as a kid they would get hit?

How is someone going to go from being the one obeying to the one who is the leader and making the decisions when theyve never been taught how?

How will they ever learn to cope under pressure when given the chance to actually make a decision over something small for the first time at the age of 20?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I have noticed a lot of the blogs that we talk about here are big on teaching their children first time obedience. One of the reasons that they give is that employers/bosses expect obedience from their employees.

I work in a technical role which requires a university degree and over the past year or so have been getting into a more supervisory role. I would not want nor would I expect obedience from my employees just because I say so. I invite and expect question, recommendations on other ways to do things and ideas. I do know that you can get truly disagreeable employees sometimes but who really wants employees to obey without question. The workplace and work wouldn't evolve and get better. Just another example of black and white thinking I guess.

Oh GOODNESS so much this.

I'm a programmer myself, been doing it my entire working life and now I get to be the technical lead on a lot of projects (no management for me, thanks!! :lol:)

When we're brainstorming, I WANT people on my team to stand up for and fight for their own ideas even if we have different opinions. The very LAST thing I would want is someone who is such a wet noodle that they realize I'm going down the wrong path and don't say anything, and we end up with a problem later. I like a healthy argument where we all kick the ideas around and fight over them and then come to some sort of consensus - if we don't I'll choose the final answer (and take responsibility for it of course) but usually some opinion manages to convince the others, and we move together. Often I'm the one who changes - I'll see the light and realize the other guy is right, and I'll flip over. And, these "arguments" are very much not personal, it's just brainstorming. It's healthy.

"First time obedience" just seems scary, to me. I can understand a "Mom's word is the final word, and I am not your friend" policy, no problem. But if the kid honestly doesn't understand what the issue is or really thinks Mom is not seeing the whole picture, a single "hey, are you sure...?" before Mom puts the foot down is probably a healthier way to be, outside of immediate life and death situations (but those are usually obvious, or when not, accompanied by some physical restraint/tackling, and anyway, those are certainly not limited to children or authority situations).

Some of the blogs I've read in the past encourage you to train your kids to abdicate any and all brain activity to just blindly follow ANYTHING that ANY adult tells them to do, because that's the "traditional way" and oh so wonderfully respectful, people will think your kids are so mature. How is that not a recipe for utter disaster? Any adult can just control your kid like a robot.

Seems at the LEAST you'd want a "obey anything your parent says, but anyone else tells you do to something you then ask me first" or something...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What is a kid raised with first time obedience going to do if an authority figure told them to do something bad or molested them?

How many fundie wives get raped because they are taught that sex needs to be done whenever the headship asks?

How is someone raised like that going to be the boss of a company one day, when they are afraid to make an unnapproved move cause every time they did that as a kid they would get hit?

How is someone going to go from being the one obeying to the one who is the leader and making the decisions when theyve never been taught how?

How will they ever learn to cope under pressure when given the chance to actually make a decision over something small for the first time at the age of 20?

EXACTLY, all of this.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

As obsessed as they are with sexual purity & innocence, they don't seem to understand that training a kid to respond a la "first time obedience" is setting them up for molestation by an older person.

That is my #1 biggest issue with this. Fundie or not, teaching kids to obey elders unquestioningly just because they are elders is raising them to become victims.

ETA: I have a close friend who had incredibly amazing, brilliant, loving, wonderful parents. Just wonderful people. One of the reasons that I admire them so much is that they made sure to teach my friend that she certainly does NOT have any obligation to obey just any adult, and that NOBODY, not even a family member, had the right to touch her inappropriately, make her go somewhere or do something that she didn't feel comfortable with, etc. As a result she was a confident, take-no-bullshit kid who nobody ever messed with.

I was raised in the opposite way, and I was well into my 20s before I learned how to avoid victimization.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

That is my #1 biggest issue with this. Fundie or not, teaching kids to obey elders unquestioningly just because they are elders is raising them to become victims.

Sometimes they add a lesson to only trust other members of their cultural group, thinking that will protect them because surely other members of their religious and pure group would never do anything like that - but as we've seen in several high-profile cases lately, that doesn't really work, there are people ready and willing to prey on kids in any group known.

[sparkles]

But they're not raising children, they're training up soldiers in god's army. The last thing you'd want your soldiers to do is question the commander's authority, so first time blind obedience makes perfect fundie sense. In the real world they'd be nothing more than bottom feeding scut workers unable to make any meaningful contribution to the team because all curiosity, drive and individuality has been beaten out of them, but by golly, they do make first rate godly little warrior zombies.

[AtroposHeart]

The goal of child training is break the child's will, even in the crib. It has always been clearly that and will never be anything else.

To question will lead the child to question their parents and possibly God, and as a result rebelious heathens. At least according to fundie logic

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

About employers. I worked for a year as an admin for an incredibly busy, brilliant, demanding doctor/scientist who wanted everything done in a very particular way - an often counter-intuitive, ass-backwards, nonsensical way. (Like, for example, rather than her learning how to manage her email account - in freaking 2008, btw - she had me print out every single email she received, label it, put it on her desk, and then file it away after she'd read it. EVERY. SINGLE. EMAIL.) But even she did not want "obedience". What she wanted was for me to understand her job well enough to anticipate what she needed and to be constantly brainstorming new ways to increase organization and efficiency (even if she did not always listen). Even in a retail environment at 16, I was expected to have the common sense to do certain things without management approval.

First-time obedience has no value to anyone except the fundie parents who are desperately trying to make the job of raising multiple children easier by erasing their individual personalities.

[jenny_islander]

@OnceModestTwiceShy, I think that's a large part of it. Teach them to obey instantly and without question or else pain, and they won't mess up your schedule. They won't learn how to evaluate an unfamiliar situation, make a decision based purely on reason, or stand up to an adult who means them harm, but they will keep your schedule on track.

Fundamentalist churches tend to preach this kind of thing from the pulpit, IMO, because if you break the kids early they won't point out that the emperor hasn't got any clothes on.

[Columbia]

Crawling out of lurkdom to ask: Does anyone remember the name of the man who bragged that his daughter didn't know whether to say yes to the man who proposed to her? He was that proud of having made all her decisions for her.

Resume lurk.

[Miggy]

The Duggars have blind obedience. They trained their kids that if anyone said to keep something secret they were to immediately run and tell a parent. When organising a surprising party for Michelle the J'slaves told the Howlers to keep it a secret and they immediately ran and told Michelle. Jim Bob tells the story as evidence of good training. He thinks it is funny and also seems quite proud. I think it is poor parenting to have taught the kids that all secrets are bad and to not think before reacting but I guess that's why I'm not fundy.

But they're not raising children, they're training up soldiers in god's army. The last thing you'd want your soldiers to do is question the commander's authority, so first time blind obedience makes perfect fundie sense.

Friends who are in the army still refer to this type of soldier as "arrow fodder". (Quite an appropriate title for quiver full kids really.) They are guaranteed to be shot. Even the lowest of the low in the army needs to look at a situation and say "Is my officer really making the best decision? Can he really see everything I see?"

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Crawling out of lurkdom to ask: Does anyone remember the name of the man who bragged that his daughter didn't know whether to say yes to the man who proposed to her? He was that proud of having made all her decisions for her.

Resume lurk.

I think that was Brett Smith, talking about his daughter Kressant (now) Morton. He said she'd literally never been allowed to make a decision up until that point.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

The Duggars have blind obedience. They trained their kids that if anyone said to keep something secret they were to immediately run and tell a parent. When organising a surprising party for Michelle the J'slaves told the Howlers to keep it a secret and they immediately ran and told Michelle. Jim Bob tells the story as evidence of good training. He thinks it is funny and also seems quite proud. I think it is poor parenting to have taught the kids that all secrets are bad and to not think before reacting but I guess that's why I'm not fundy.

Friends who are in the army still refer to this type of soldier as "arrow fodder". (Quite an appropriate title for quiver full kids really.) They are guaranteed to be shot. Even the lowest of the low in the army needs to look at a situation and say "Is my officer really making the best decision? Can he really see everything I see?"

Michelle has also talked about how, when she (supposedly) has a one-on-one with one of the kids, she always makes sure to ask if they are keeping anything from Mommy. They are being taught that they can't have private feelings and thoughts at all.

My partner went though a similar version of this with his (non-religious) ex a few years ago. She was insisting that their son tell her every little thing that he thinks, feels, etc. - no "secrets", even something like "I didn't really like the pasta sauce you made that much." Partner, on the other hand, made it very clear that when his son is with us, he is under no obligation to share absolutely everything. No, he is not allowed to keep "secrets" about getting a bad grade or not doing something he was supposed to, but he also understands that he is an individual and he doesn't have to be a total open book.

[Miggy]

Strange really, not letting a daughter make any decisions, when so many of them talk about raising a good Proverbs wife. She is described as running the house and estate while the husband goes off to the city each day. She hires and fires workers, organises crops to be planted and harvested - the list is long. The modern day version would more be cleans the house, raises the kids, pays the bills and does some charity work. It seems to me that there is a fair bit of decision making in there. How do you step from never making a decision in your life into that role?

Little anecdote: My husband-to-be took me to visit his brother & SiL. A discussion about where to go for lunch led SiL to say "I'll do what I'm told". I was stunned. MrMiggy said to me later "If you ever say that to me I will leave." He has repeated it a few times over the years when various female members of the family have plated the no-decision-total-obedience role and I believe he is serious. I wonder whether there are men in fundy land who hate it too but "keep sweet" about their useless wives. I don't believe they are all egotistical bastards.

[martian]

They're raising serfs.

Perfectly appropriate for a movement that wants to roll back the Enlightenment.

[Mrs Ms]

Another reason I have read a few times is safety. "Little Johnny Adam was going to run in front of a car in the carpark, but because we blanket trained him and did "first time obedience" he stopped when I hollered and is alive - praise Jeebus!!!!111!!"

Ahem, hate to break it to them, but so would my child. My time-out only, (currently) talks back constantly, (currently) says no to EVERYTHING I say pre-schooler knows if I use a certain pitch/volume of voice to stop everything and stay still! That pitch/volume means DANGER and not "just" no.

No hitting or training needed.....

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Another reason I have read a few times is safety. "Little Johnny Adam was going to run in front of a car in the carpark, but because we blanket trained him and did "first time obedience" he stopped when I hollered and is alive - praise Jeebus!!!!111!!"

Ahem, hate to break it to them, but so would my child. My time-out only, (currently) talks back constantly, (currently) says no to EVERYTHING I say pre-schooler knows if I use a certain pitch/volume of voice to stop everything and stay still! That pitch/volume means DANGER and not "just" no.

No hitting or training needed.....

Yeah, it's really amazing that those of us whose parents didn't hit us are still alive, huh? :lol: :roll:

[Vex]

Perfect obedience creates perfect victims.