Dead 4 Months after No-Touch Courtship

[August]

I am very sad that this lady was murdered.

But all this sex obsession they have! If my parents even had more than a vague deduction about my sex life (I gave birth to two children, so there's some hard evidence there), let alone talked about it, let let alone talked about it on TV I would die of embarassment, plus have them arrested for skeeviness. SEX=PRIVATE At least in this godless liberal's world, anyway.

[ThrK]

I think he regretted marrying her. They had a "great" courtship, but his demeanor changed after they married. He had an affair and believed divorced was shameful, but murder was fine(that seem to be the logic of many murderers with religious backgrounds).

Possible really stupid question, but do Christians in general or the fundies discussed here place any special reverence for the ten commandments over other religious laws/commandments? I know there's the idea that all other Old Testament laws are void in Christian belief (except when citing them to condemn gay marriage or whatever), but how do the ten commandments fit in? Are they equivalent in value to laws from the New Testament or seen as higher status? Or are they just used to decorate courthouses for "cultural" reasons?

[Kira]

Possible really stupid question, but do Christians in general or the fundies discussed here place any special reverence for the ten commandments over other religious laws/commandments? I know there's the idea that all other Old Testament laws are void in Christian belief (except when citing them to condemn gay marriage or whatever), but how do the ten commandments fit in? Are they equivalent in value to laws from the New Testament or seen as higher status? Or are they just used to decorate courthouses for "cultural" reasons?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I want to clarify my comment. I don't think he believed murder was fine, but divorce is such a big no-no. There was a case just like this one except the wife killed the husband. She said their was no way she could get a divorce because it would shame her family.

[Miggy]

Possible really stupid question, but do Christians in general or the fundies discussed here place any special reverence for the ten commandments over other religious laws/commandments? I know there's the idea that all other Old Testament laws are void in Christian belief (except when citing them to condemn gay marriage or whatever), but how do the ten commandments fit in? Are they equivalent in value to laws from the New Testament or seen as higher status? Or are they just used to decorate courthouses for "cultural" reasons?

Jesus taught that all laws (there are a lot more than 10 in the OT) could be summed up in two; (1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and (2) love all of mankind as you would love yourself. That's what I try to live by and it's what I taught my kids.

So, in this case, I don't want anyone to kill me so I shouldn't kill anyone else. It's a really easy set of instructions to follow!

[Miggy]

I will just add to my previous post that although the instructions are simple, I don't claim to do a good job of following.

The bible says all sins are equally as bad so divorce or murder are both bad but so is lying or gossiping. The point is they all hurt people and we shouldn't do any of them.

[Closed Womb]

Did they give this speech at her wedding or FUNERAL? :shock:

It wasn't a speech, it was just the things they decided to focus on when they were being interviewed for the program. Their daughter is deceased and they are waxing poetic about her virginity, of all things? It's still hard for me to wrap my head around. I understand that this is really important to the fundies, but after your daughter is dead and gone your focus in discussing her is her wedding night purity, first kiss at the altar, modest wedding dress, blah, blah, blah.

[Closed Womb]

A lot of the purity talk was in the set-up, up-front, when they were talking about how they met and stuff, prior to when they started talking about the crime. All her parents could talk about was about how pure she was, how strong her faith was, how she was a loving woman who wanted to be a mom. I missed the last part of it where they actually went into the crime and stuff so I can't comment on how they wrapped it all up in the end.

Once they got to the crime, they tried to figure out why he did it (didn't want a divorce, appears to have been having an affair with a co-worker, or at least an attraction to her, is the best guess). The family was not particularly harsh towards him, from what I remember.

The purity talk was up front, but she has been dead since 2008. I just can't fathom that their daughter has been gone 5 or so years this is how they choose to remember her. Besides being a piano teacher, they really said nothing about HER except that she was such a pure, perfect Christian girl.

[kb2]

I watched it last night, too. I was mad when her Mom said "We lost three family members that day... our daughter, our unborn grandchild and our son-in-law." How could you think of him as a family member? He killed your daughter and grandchild in cold blood. And then tried to make it look like a robbery.

I don't know, when you are close to someone who does something horrible like murder, it does feel like losing them. I'm not sure how close they could be to their son-in-law since they arranged such a short low-contact courtship--their sense of loss may come more from having "acquire son-in-law" un-checked off their to-do list than from appreciating him as a person--but I think a normal family would feel a sense of loss from that kind of betrayal. At least (at least) they consider him dead to them instead of questioning why he would need jail time, like certain other fundie families do when young women are shot by their husbands.

[wild little fox]

http://m.wafb.com/autojuice?targetUrl=h ... sed-killer

Link not broken: news site

The Baker family gathered to mourn after losing their baby girl and what would have been their fourth grandchild. "She was a doll, I suppose you would say," says her father, Winford Baker. Christa Alexander is remembered by friends and family both near and far as a person who shared her life and a message. "She already did a total of 17 mission trips. I told someone last night that she probably did 70 years of work in 24 years," her father says.

Winford Baker says he spoke with the man charged with killing his daughter. "We talked with him briefly right before he went back for another interview. It really wasn't much of a conversation. We hugged and cried together." He talked with Couty Alexander, who married his daughter just four months ago, and is now being held in Livingston Parish Prison without bond.

Baker says although he wants to see justice served, he's already forgiven his daughter's accused killer. "Like I said earlier, we've forgiven him. Even before we knew who it was, we forgave him." Baker says one thing that gives him comfort is knowing Christa is now in a better place. "Well, she's with the Lord. She's in heaven. She's in a better place."

Members of the Baker family say they are still in shock and cannot figure out why this happened. They say it appeared the couple was in love. Funeral services for Christa Alexander will be held this Thursday in Abita Springs.

----

It is as if their daughter was nothing but a possession. First theirs - a china doll kept pure in a glass cupboard, then her husband's to do with what he wished. And it's like it is okay now because she is in heaven with God. The objectification of Christa by EVERYONE involved is what got her killed.

Bold and italics by me

[longskirtlotsakids]

That dad hugged her killer?

That fucker is right up there with a muslim mercy killer in my book.

[Blahblah]

I seriously don't get the whole "she's in a better place" deal.

I get that suicide is "sinful" so rule out that option. But if being dead means you are "in a better place" then why aren't they all wandering about in high risk situations praying for accidental death to strike them down?

[SpeakNow]

I seriously don't get the whole "she's in a better place" deal.

I get that suicide is "sinful" so rule out that option. But if being dead means you are "in a better place" then why aren't they all wandering about in high risk situations praying for accidental death to strike them down?

Because they are oh-so-kind and want to use their time on earth to save everyone so that no one has to be tortured in hell

[ThrK]

Jesus taught that all laws (there are a lot more than 10 in the OT) could be summed up in two; (1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and (2) love all of mankind as you would love yourself. That's what I try to live by and it's what I taught my kids.

So, in this case, I don't want anyone to kill me so I shouldn't kill anyone else. It's a really easy set of instructions to follow!

In some practices of Judaism (although I'm pretty sure the Rambam was against it) the ten commandments are seen as the key rules, so obeying them and skipping lots of the others is not seen as all that bad. So, anal sex between two men, is not a biggie, while adultery is. Plus, loving God is not a commandment, so agnostism does not necessarily a bad Jew make. (Hippy dippy Hebrew school graduate here, obviously.) Not that I think this guy didn't realize murder was wrong.

Pretty sure some of those literalist fundies take that to mean "I don't want to be gay married, so no one should get gay married," or "I don't like wearing pants, so no women can ever wear pants."

Anyways, thanks for explaining. I thought having a partner with a religious Christian family would allow me to finally get a better doctrinal understanding, but they don't know squat. :roll:

[jjj]

The bible says all sins are equally as bad so divorce or murder are both bad but so is lying or gossiping. The point is they all hurt people and we shouldn't do any of them.

Yep. That's one of the teachings of evangelical christianity that is just so obviously not true and practically immoral to assert. Obviously, there's a huge difference between fibbing and killing... Distorted crap like engaging in instant forgiveness of your child's murderer is one of the really repugnant things that follows from believing this BS.

[ari_belle]

A lot of the purity talk was in the set-up, up-front, when they were talking about how they met and stuff, prior to when they started talking about the crime. All her parents could talk about was about how pure she was, how strong her faith was, how she was a loving woman who wanted to be a mom. I missed the last part of it where they actually went into the crime and stuff so I can't comment on how they wrapped it all up in the end.

But still...to put so much emphasis on purity, even if it meant her husband and the murder was discussed later on........it's too much. Unless they later emphasize how screwed up the whole system was, which I doubt happened. They sound like they're in denial about a lot, that they're ignoring a lot of important lessons they could learn and spread about how damaging the culture of purity can be.

[ari_belle]

I think he regretted marrying her. They had a "great" courtship, but his demeanor changed after they married. He had an affair and believed divorced was shameful, but murder was fine(that seem to be the logic of many murderers with religious backgrounds).

And this...I don't even understand this. How could that be? I mean, wasn't he aware that he'd go to jail and probably waste much of his life there, at least? It's not like he was gonna murder his wife and run away happily ever after, God easily forgiving him and divinely mandating him to marry the other woman. What logic was he using? Because there was some messed-up logic in there....false logic.

[turquoise]

And this...I don't even understand this. How could that be? I mean, wasn't he aware that he'd go to jail and probably waste much of his life there, at least? It's not like he was gonna murder his wife and run away happily ever after, God easily forgiving him and divinely mandating him to marry the other woman. What logic was he using? Because there was some messed-up logic in there....false logic.

It's about looking like a good person rather than actually being a good person. They see divorce as a sin and they don't want the shame of being the bad guy. But a widower gets lots of sympathy. They think they're going to get away with it. I suspect in some cases at least, there's some sort of magical thinking going on and they are in denial, trying to convince themselves as well as other people that they didn't really kill someone.

[debrand]

It's about looking like a good person rather than actually being a good person. They see divorce as a sin and they don't want the shame of being the bad guy. But a widower gets lots of sympathy. They think they're going to get away with it. I suspect in some cases at least, there's some sort of magical thinking going on and they are in denial, trying to convince themselves as well as other people that they didn't really kill someone.

His is not the first case that I've seen on ID where a person who didn't believe in divorce killed their spouse. That makes no sense, of course. If you are going to follow your religion, why not follow it all the way. Christianity certainly doesn't approve of spouses killing spouses. I think that the murderer often wants to outwardly be seen as good.

Right wing Christianity puts a lot of emphasis on following rules-even if they give lip service to salvation by grace. It doesn't surprise me that young adults would think that outward appearance matters more than what they do in secret.

In a way we see this with the parents of the murdered girl who are so focused on her purity.

[turquoise]

If you divorce your spouse, then you also have to deal with messy things like division of assets, child custody and child support. Some of these murderers probably just want their spouse gone completely so they can do whatever they want, without needing to compromise with anyone else. I'm thinking of Scott Peterson, although AFAIK he wasn't particularly religious.

[The Larch]

Holy shit. I know (well, knew) this family. They did a TV show about it?? How utterly surreal. I don't even. :|

[rward]

If you divorce your spouse, then you also have to deal with messy things like division of assets, child custody and child support. Some of these murderers probably just want their spouse gone completely so they can do whatever they want, without needing to compromise with anyone else. I'm thinking of Scott Peterson, although AFAIK he wasn't particularly religious.

I think, in his mind, he was caught between a rock and a hard place. They were married 4 months and she was 3 months pregnant. He was looking at pregnancy after pregnancy, baby after baby to support, for the next 2 decades on the one hand, or a divorce that would destroy him in the community and his family on the other. Killing the poor woman really was the only way out without him sacrificing something, as long as he didn't get caught.

White, middle class American women of child bearing age are most likely to die during pregnancy. Not because of the medical risks of pregnancy, but due to being murdered by their partner. Pregnancy stresses relationships and provokes the absolute worst behavior from some types of men. It's scary shit.

[nolongerIFBx]

And while this Godly man was going through the courtship motions with Christa, he was boinking his female co-worker. I'm sure he felt a lot of pressure from his family to pick the "right" girl and go through a no-touching courtship, but it clearly wasn't what he wanted. I thought Christa's parents' obsession with her purity made them seem like creepy jerks. So many of these fundie parents (JimBob and Michelle, Kelly and Gil, etc.) grew up practicing much more mainstream types of religions and don't seem to have any guilt that they're not following their parents' beliefs. Yet, they believe that are entitled to force their rigid beliefs on their adult children. When you put so much pressure and guilt on your children, sooner or later one of them might try to escape the life any way they can.

I agree with this post. While I'm older than Couty and Christa, I attended Smite Camp (though it was Youth Leadership Training Camp then). I think that part of Couty wanted to do "right"-- which is why he courted and married Christa-- but another part of him just couldn't take the pressure and escaped into his job. That side eventually won and he snapped under the pressure of trying to live a double life. Those who knew Couty will tell you that they never saw this side of him. Everyone believed his original story at first because nothing else seemed to fit with what they knew of Couty.

I know of two other stories-- one dicussed along with Couty on the old yuku where the couple was playing with guns, some intruder type game. I believe that young man is already out of prison. The other took place in the church I spent my early teens and early twenties in. I was acquainted with the young man involved. I think her death remained ruled an accident, but the new wife fell down the stairs while hubby was in the shower (if I remember correctly). There was some speculation that the way her body was positioned was suspicious, but as far as I know nothing came of it. If I google her name I only get an obituary.

I defintely need to watch this show. I may end up writing a paper this summer on "The Cult of Virginity" and this would be a great object lesson. First I have to convince my professor that it falls into one of the following categories:

•Healing

•Eating/Abstention

•Birth Practices

•Marriage Practices

•Sacred Spaces

•Artistic Representations

•Clothing/Decorating the Body

Abstention or marriage practices should work, I think.

[debrand]

I hope you do write that paper. It surprises me that more intellectuals don't realize how fascinating but harmful some far right Christian practices really are. It is like there is a huge subculture in the United States that gets ignored-except on this site- by the media and the population at large even though that subculture influences our culture through voting.

[debrand]

Holy shit. I know (well, knew) this family. They did a TV show about it?? How utterly surreal. I don't even. :|

Does the family appear obsessed with purity in real life?

[RachelB]

I watched it last night, too. I was mad when her Mom said "We lost three family members that day... our daughter, our unborn grandchild and our son-in-law." How could you think of him as a family member? He killed your daughter and grandchild in cold blood. And then tried to make it look like a robbery.

There've been occasions where I've significantly misjudged someone, then mourned the "loss" of the person I thought they were. That's how I interpreted what her mother said, possibly with an overlay of "He must not be all bad, because he's a saved Christian." (Hello, cognitive dissonance!)