The Stubborn Woman

[Pearl]

As I move farther and farther away from fundieland, little things that didn't seem profoundly evil to me are beginning to bother me.

I am tired of hearing women being called stubborn. Time and time again in the Christian circles I was in and am sometimes in again (due to family, etc.), the husband in saccharine "joking yet not joking tone" call his wife "stubborn." My ex-husband would call me stubborn and his parents would comment on how stubborn I was. This adjective seems to be placed on many Christian women. I can only think it is because the wife has made a comment or action in contradiction to what the husband has decreed to be done.

I'm beginning to see this adjective as a huge insult and put down to keep wives and daughters from being able to exercise their "God-given" intellect and personalities and to put them in their place as lesser-beings to the demi-god patriarchal man. This word is used as a "loving" reproach (I used the word loving because of the tone of voice the husband uses) to his wayward servant/charge. Every time I hear it being used against a wife, it makes my stomach turn.

So, patriarchal husbands use the word stubborn, but they don't realize that they are the epitome of stubborn as they won't allow anything to change their willful minds to the decisions that they make.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[DistantStar]

I never thought of it as an insult, but I never was involved in fundieworld either - I come from a long line of stubborn women! To me it means knowing what you want and standing up for it. That doesn't mean negotiation can't happen, of course, depending on the situation. But not for stubborn being an insult; I stubbornly refuse to accept it as such!

HA! Take that fundies!

[dairyfreelife]

I think it depends on how it's used. My boyfriend calls me stubborn sometimes and truth be told, I am. However he's just messing with me when it says it, "Anyone ever you tell you you're a stubborn ass sometimes?" All the time. I am stubborn, though I am working on getting better. My dear father was stubborn too. I take after him, according to my dear mother. So was my late grandfather. Stubbornness runs in the family. No doubt at least one of my offspring will be just as stubborn.

Though, I can see it being used in a negative way as well. I have heard fundies who call women stubborn when they try to explain why they are right, because women can't be right since that will bruise the manly man's ego deeply to be wrong. I hear it called nagging when a woman dares remind her husband of anything. That's not nagging. If so, my father was the worst nagger there ever was. :cracking-up:

So, it could be, but I am not bothered by it since it's a gender-neutral term and stubbornness is a trait in a lot of people. Most people are stubborn in some way.

[AtroposHeart]

Honestly, we do use words to put not just women, but undesirable classes in their place.

Think about this, "It is only classwarfare when the poor fight back." The rich can do all sorts of things to the poor and get away with it, with hardly a word said.

It is about keeping people in their places. In the fundieworld (and to an extent the mainstream world) it's women who need to be kept in their place.

[salex]

As I move farther and farther away from fundieland, little things that didn't seem profoundly evil to me are beginning to bother me.

I am tired of hearing women being called stubborn. Time and time again in the Christian circles I was in and am sometimes in again (due to family, etc.), the husband in saccharine "joking yet not joking tone" call his wife "stubborn." My ex-husband would call me stubborn and his parents would comment on how stubborn I was. This adjective seems to be placed on many Christian women. I can only think it is because the wife has made a comment or action in contradiction to what the husband has decreed to be done.

I'm beginning to see this adjective as a huge insult and put down to keep wives and daughters from being able to exercise their "God-given" intellect and personalities and to put them in their place as lesser-beings to the demi-god patriarchal man. This word is used as a "loving" reproach (I used the word loving because of the tone of voice the husband uses) to his wayward servant/charge. Every time I hear it being used against a wife, it makes my stomach turn.

So, patriarchal husbands use the word stubborn, but they don't realize that they are the epitome of stubborn as they won't allow anything to change their willful minds to the decisions that they make.

Has anyone else noticed this?

No, but I don't run in fundie circles much--though I have a brother in law who might be considered a mercenary variation of Fundie Light call his sister (She with the MBA who dared to disagree with him on some bit of business ) "Uppity" Probably similar to Stubborn as you are describing it.

He was ordained, but never had a church as he ditched his wife and kids for a woman at his old workplace--didn't got to church much again until his second wife was dying, and wasn't religious until he could parlay it into some earthly benefit for himself. He was also the most dishonest business person I've been in business with.

[rward]

"Stubborn" can absolutely be used as an insult, particularly towards women, who are supposed to keep sweet, even in secular society. Men are ambitious, women are bitches, it's just more of the same.

[Green Glass]

I have noticed this as well. If a woman doesn't give in and do whatever the man wants immediately (with a smile, of course) she is stubborn, which they consider a bad thing - since to them it's so horrible for a woman to have a will of her own.

[emiliawasframed]

No, but I don't run in fundie circles much--though I have a brother in law who might be considered a mercenary variation of Fundie Light call his sister (She with the MBA who dared to disagree with him on some bit of business ) "Uppity" Probably similar to Stubborn as you are describing it.

He was ordained, but never had a church as he ditched his wife and kids for a woman at his old workplace--didn't got to church much again until his second wife was dying, and wasn't religious until he could parlay it into some earthly benefit for himself. He was also the most dishonest business person I've been in business with.

I tend to think of "stubborn" as a bit more gender and race neutral and "uppity" as more clearly gendered/racialized, but I can see how both words could do very similar sociological work.

[Rachel333]

Stubborn on its own can probably go both ways, but a "'stubborn heart" is definitely a negative thing in fundie culture. It means you aren't conforming well enough.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

As I move farther and farther away from fundieland, little things that didn't seem profoundly evil to me are beginning to bother me.

I am tired of hearing women being called stubborn. Time and time again in the Christian circles I was in and am sometimes in again (due to family, etc.), the husband in saccharine "joking yet not joking tone" call his wife "stubborn." My ex-husband would call me stubborn and his parents would comment on how stubborn I was. This adjective seems to be placed on many Christian women. I can only think it is because the wife has made a comment or action in contradiction to what the husband has decreed to be done.

I'm beginning to see this adjective as a huge insult and put down to keep wives and daughters from being able to exercise their "God-given" intellect and personalities and to put them in their place as lesser-beings to the demi-god patriarchal man. This word is used as a "loving" reproach (I used the word loving because of the tone of voice the husband uses) to his wayward servant/charge. Every time I hear it being used against a wife, it makes my stomach turn.

So, patriarchal husbands use the word stubborn, but they don't realize that they are the epitome of stubborn as they won't allow anything to change their willful minds to the decisions that they make.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Pearl, I understand exactly what you're saying. "Stubborn" can be used in such a condescending way, like an adult woman is some sort of tantrumy, recalcitrant child who doesn't want to clean her room. "Oh, sweetie, you're just so STUBBORN about seeing your mother during the holidays. You know we always see MY parents. Now finish up that pie I asked for and I'll buy you a new apron." **head pat**

I myself am stubborn, obstinate, unruly, and any other number of less than flattering things, and have been (correctly) told that by various boyfriends. However, they never said it in the way YOU are talking about - like I am an equal that isn't being particularly realistic or nice, NOT a bratty child.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's not a gendered word in my non-fundie world. OTOH, it is used as a put-down, especially with children, when it is not necessarily a bad trait. You could describe someone as being firm and decisive and resolute. Standing up for what is right takes a certain amount of stubbornness. I remember reading a biography of Anatoly Sharansky that described him as being a very stubborn child who resisted discipline, esp. if he thought that he was right. It was that very trait that allowed him to survive years in a Soviet gulag and emerge unbroken, without compromising on his ideals.

My pet peeve is complaints against women who "just want to make a point about their rights". Yeah, and the problem with that is.....?

[Savoring Samsara]

“I want every little girl who's told she's bossy to be told instead that she has leadership skills.†– Sheryl Sandberg

Which is to say, yes, I agree, with you.

[uber frau]

It's not a gendered word in my non-fundie world. OTOH, it is used as a put-down, especially with children, when it is not necessarily a bad trait. You could describe someone as being firm and decisive and resolute. Standing up for what is right takes a certain amount of stubbornness. I remember reading a biography of Anatoly Sharansky that described him as being a very stubborn child who resisted discipline, esp. if he thought that he was right. It was that very trait that allowed him to survive years in a Soviet gulag and emerge unbroken, without compromising on his ideals.

Yes, I have one child who...will be called 'determined' when he is older. Right now, he's just damn hard work to parent. Lots of traits that are positve in adults are seen as negative in children but the things that make for a well trained, compliant child (like what the fundies seem to want) are traits that are negative in adults. Unless, of course, you want automotons/robots for God.

In my world (as a fundy), stubborn was not neccesarily seen as a bad thing but it could be used as an insult, especially when aimed at ppl who those who 'should' be compliant.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Id say stubborn was a good thing, I would rather have a very stubborn child who will grow up and be very successful in whatever they want to do, than have a little fundie robot who is so compliant that they will be walked over by everyone.

[uber frau]

Yep. My compliant, people pleasing child worries me far more than my 'stubborn' one.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Id say stubborn was a good thing, I would rather have a very stubborn child who will grow up and be very successful in whatever they want to do, than have a little fundie robot who is so compliant that they will be walked over by everyone.

My stubborn toddler who couldn't deal with the word "no" and who would crawl into cabinets 47 times in a row while banging her head each time is now a tween who says stuff like "When I go to Harvard...". Not IF, but WHEN.