Cross-examination, indeed! - Ben and Audri Botkin

[Marian the Librarian]

To prepare us all for their upcoming "Marrying Well" webinar, Ben and Audri Botkin have posted a "sampling" of the questions they asked one another. I'd copy them all to this message, but I'm sure y'all have a plane to catch some time this year... :shock:

westernconservatory.com/article/2011/08/ask-hard-things

[DamnPrecious]

talking about children...

What attitudes or personality traits are held up as off-limits?

I would assume any and all.

[demgirl]

This:

•Would you be willing to die for Christ? If you're not dying daily, how can you be so sure you would then?

wins the Gold medal in the stupid Olympics. Because being willing to try not to sin and putting Jesus first every day is somehow predictive of your ability to literally be a martyr for Jesus? Also, why do these people start every conversation about something joyous (marriage!) with something depressing (death!11!1!)

•What is a besetting sin? What are yours?

Huh? What the hell is a besetting sin? I think I already failed this test.

•What do you think about your family? Are you good friends? How is sibling ____ doing?

Because normal conversation (i.e. How are things going with the fam?) has to be turned into something complicated that requires much explanation from the Robotkins.

•What is your attitude towards historically held positions?

Again, I say "Huh?" This is worse than the bar exam! And NOTHING is worse than the bar exam! (except this.)

•Are you interested in/focused on continual spiritual growth - in yourself, your wife, and your family?

Does anyone in a fundie courtship say No to something like this? Isn't there, like, a clearly correct answer here? Even I could get this one right. This definitely takes Silver in the Stupidity Olympics. Speaking of which, this next one takes bronze, simply for the poor wording choice:

•You are the result of the influence of which people?

How about this one:

•Do you view children as a measure of God’s favor or an added blessing that He may or may not give?

If God loves you, you have 18 children. Your fertility is entirely due to God's blessing or disfavor. Huh. That was pretty easy too.

•How do you treat an unsaved child spiritually and practically in the context of a Christian family?

Ditch 'em. But keep praying for their soul in between praying for more babies.

•When does corporal discipline begin?

In the womb.

•How do you begin to train infants?

Make a new baby super quick, so the infant can be the new baby's buddy by the time the infant is 10 months old.

•How would we model ourselves to our children? Our lifestyles, traits, personalities, things we laugh at (or don’t laugh at), what we approve of, etc.

I like how they pre-determine what will amuse them and catch their sense of humor. Of course, it helps that they don't have a sense of humor.

God, I hate these people. I know "hate" is a strong word, but... it fits, in this case.

[hoipolloi]

Why don't Ben & Audri post their answers to these stupid questions?

[anniebgood]

We don't train infants, we train dogs. What a bunch of self righteous claptrap.

[Koala]

Charming couple. Heaven help the poor child that gets stuck with them

[ladypuglover]

Quote:

•Would you be willing to die for Christ? If you're not dying daily, how can you be so sure you would then?

Pretty sure that Jesus would want me as a depression/sucide attempt survivor to live daily. Jesus and I are cool on this so thanks.

Quote:

•What is a besetting sin? What are yours?

My besetting sin is sitting here reading moronic ideas from morons.

Quote:

•When does corporal discipline begin?

When you join the military and become a corporal. :doh:

Quote:

•How do you begin to train infants?

I like to line them up in a row, with them all facing the same way. I try to lay them on boppy pillows so they all can see me and them I make noises like chugga chugga choo choo! at them. Or I take them all to the dog track and line them up at the starting line. I then take a pop-cap pistel and when I make it pop I throw a stuffed bunny down the track. :roll:

[darkplumaged]

My besetting sin is sitting here reading moronic ideas from morons.

:clap:

How can these people stand themselves?

You could spend days going over this crap with someone and still have no idea what it would be like to live with him or her on a day-to-day basis. I guess it doesn't matter: Ben leads, a la Pappy, and Audri submits. Simple, done.

[Aurora]

What do they mean by "your disciples"?

[Deleted12]

The only thing more boring than reading that list would be discussing the items on it.

The thing that really slays me is that a savvy individual could totally BS his or her way through the entire list.

"Say, AthenaC, what do you think about Romans 7?"

"Well, Ben, I'm glad you asked. You see, the Jews were all about works, but we as Christians are saved by grace. This means that as Christians, we are no longer bound to the law for our salvation, but instead we must freely accept that Christ died for us. Our old selves must die with him and our new selves be resurrected if we are to be saved. I'm sure glad that Christians can eat cheeseburgers! Here, let me go fix you one!!1!" :wink:

Meanwhile, only a moron would answer like this:

"What words or phrases do you think should be off limits?"

"Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits."

Though I suppose since not one of them has ever gone through a JOB INTERVIEW in their lives they're totally unpracticed at throwing out bullshit answers to shitty questions.

[makepeace]

Questions:

* What have been the hardest things you have ever had to work through? The hardest things you have ever done?

Waiting for God to write my courtship story.

* Do you want children?

No! ...... Just joking, see I'm funny too (not that women should be funny - I will laugh at your jokes). I want 200 children.

[LucySnowe]

That page for the webinar itself...argh! (I should say that Visionary Daughters is possibly even more trainwreck fascinating to me than YLCF.)

Join Geoffrey Botkin and his wife Victoria, David Botkin and his wife Nadia, and Benjamin Botkin and his wife Audri

Join these MEN who are their own people, and oh yes also these women who have to be identified by their positions as helpmeets, because obviously saying 'Geoffrey and Victoria Botkin' would somehow be WRONG.

(cf. my old bugbear 'my neighbor and his wife')

[Burris]

What do they mean by "your disciples"?

That caught my attention, too.

They always did have a flair for the dramatic.

[gustava]

Before Audri and I were engaged, we spent about a four-month period getting to know each other as well as we possibly could with our parents' blessing.

Bolding is mine own. Am loving the modifier placement which turns what they are want to say on its head.

[contrary]

geez. and to think that i based my marriage decision on whether or not he liked America's Next Top Model...

[MrsYoungie]

Those are actually very useful questions. Because if I were attracted to someone and they asked virtually ANY of those questions I would instantly know to run fast in the opposite direction.

[liltwinstar]

How can they possibly know the answers to some of those questions?? I mean, they were what, 19 years old when they courted/married? For example, this question:

•How do you treat an unsaved child spiritually and practically in the context of a Christian family?

is a hard thing for people twice or three times their age to figure out! Why would you think you had all the answers when you're 19???

And who the hell cares about this:

•What do you think are some of the main problems of the evangelical churches of today?

Pretty sure they *don't attend* Evangelical church, so why do they need to discuss its problems as a prerequisite for marriage? It would be like me and my husband deciding that we had to diagnose the problems of the Catholic church before we could decide to marry - we're not Catholic, so how would that be relevant to our relationship??

I would like to see someone do a pre-marriage seminar with actual, useful information - questions like "how do you resolve problems" and "what do you do when you're angry" and "would you be open to outside counseling" and "if we found that we were infertile, would you prefer to pursue adoption or IVF or both?"

Life circumstances change all the time, so you can't nail down exact scenarios. The decisions I would have made at 20 are different than the decisions I make at 30 - and marriage isn't about having a pre-determined set of behaviors/beliefs that you hold the other to. What if Ben decides when he's 40 that he likes mainstream movies? Can Audri then say that he's not upholding his marriage vow because back when he was 20 he didn't like them? That's stupid!! Seems to me that marriage prep should be about figuring out what makes the other tick and falling in love with the good and the bad- not stupid, superficial "opinions" that can change with time. My husband is a SF Giants fan...if he becomes a LA Dodgers fan is he breaking his marriage vows??? No! (I would laugh really hard at him, though, if he switched teams like that :) )

[Austin]

But liltwinstar, there are formulas for these things! No thinking required!

[Aurora]

geez. and to think that i based my marriage decision on whether or not he liked America's Next Top Model...

That should obviously be added to their list of questions (although I would replace it with Big Bang Theory, which whole show would make their heads explode).

That page for the webinar itself...argh! (I should say that Visionary Daughters is possibly even more trainwreck fascinating to me than YLCF.)

Join Geoffrey Botkin and his wife Victoria, David Botkin and his wife Nadia, and Benjamin Botkin and his wife Audri

Join these MEN who are their own people, and oh yes also these women who have to be identified by their positions as helpmeets, because obviously saying 'Geoffrey and Victoria Botkin' would somehow be WRONG.

(cf. my old bugbear 'my neighbor and his wife')

Yeah, no kidding. Or, God forbid, Victoria Botkin and her husband Geoffrey...! :lol:

"What words or phrases do you think should be off limits?"

"Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits."

.

Spew alert!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[twin2]

When did [fruit of the Spirit x] start appearing in your life?

Are you pursuing and involving yourself in fruitful projects that advance/build the kingdom?

Um, yeah ok.

What would their education entail? (History, Science, Theology, Creation/Biology, Music/Arts)

Well, at least these tools admit that biology and creation are two different things.

What are the primary events or situations in your life that have defined who you are today--the most formulating experiences and periods of your life?

What have been the hardest things you have ever had to work through? The hardest things you have ever done?

Ok, these sound like questions I've been getting for job interviews. Which I should probably be preparing for right now, since I have another phone interview in like 2 hrs.

[emeraldskull]

The thing that really slays me is that a savvy individual could totally BS his or her way through the entire list.

I never really thought about that till just now, but you are so right. All a person would need is the "right answers" to the questions presented, regardless of whether or not they actually believed them. I mean, a personal friend of mine is divorced because after their very controlled courtship and marriage, she found out her husband didn't believe any of what he told her, and was a totally different person. :-P

Right answers tickle our ears, sure... but they don't make a person. I mean, yes there are some things I will ask guys I might consider a relationship with, things that are important to me... But I couldn't imagine going through a list like that and having to have the right answer for every. single. question. :-P

Also, of the things that are important to me, I will ask a point blank question about any particular subject, but I won't always just take their word for it. I will see how they interact with friends and family, how their values play out in real time and not just on paper or verbally.

Something like children... I want to have or adopt children. I love kids, so I want to raise some of my own, it's pretty important to me. So I asked my bf what he thought about kids, if he wanted any, how he felt about adoption, etc. But not just asking him and forgetting about it... Even without specifically "watching for proof", it is very obvious that he loves kids! In the way he interacts with them, the way he talks to them, the way he hangs out with them just because they are fun to be around.

I think that is kind of where a disconnect happens in fundieland.... You don't ever really KNOW a person. You aren't allowed private conversations, you can only "hang out" as a couple a few times a week in controlled settings, both people are always 100% on their "best behavior"... how can you ever get to know someone in that kind of situation?

[Olivia]

You know, my husband and I tried to talk through everything we could before we were married. How we'd handle finances, religion, our aging parents. How many kids we wanted, how we wanted to raise them, public/private/home schooling. What kind of lifestyle, travel, house, pets. Priorities for money, priorities for time, priorities for career. What was divorce-worthy and what merited counseling.

I'm a bit of a nut about planning and I just wanted to be sure we didn't run into many big surprises (though I think there's always SOMETHING you don't know about your spouse). To the point where in our pre-marital counseling, the chaplain we saw told me it was OK to just let there be some things we figured out along the way!

But this list looks nuts even to someone like me.

[Aurora]

I never really thought about that till just now, but you are so right. All a person would need is the "right answers" to the questions presented, regardless of whether or not they actually believed them. I mean, a personal friend of mine is divorced because after their very controlled courtship and marriage, she found out her husband didn't believe any of what he told her, and was a totally different person. :-P

Right answers tickle our ears, sure... but they don't make a person. I mean, yes there are some things I will ask guys I might consider a relationship with, things that are important to me... But I couldn't imagine going through a list like that and having to have the right answer for every. single. question. :-P

Also, of the things that are important to me, I will ask a point blank question about any particular subject, but I won't always just take their word for it. I will see how they interact with friends and family, how their values play out in real time and not just on paper or verbally.

Something like children... I want to have or adopt children. I love kids, so I want to raise some of my own, it's pretty important to me. So I asked my bf what he thought about kids, if he wanted any, how he felt about adoption, etc. But not just asking him and forgetting about it... Even without specifically "watching for proof", it is very obvious that he loves kids! In the way he interacts with them, the way he talks to them, the way he hangs out with them just because they are fun to be around.

I think that is kind of where a disconnect happens in fundieland.... You don't ever really KNOW a person. You aren't allowed private conversations, you can only "hang out" as a couple a few times a week in controlled settings, both people are always 100% on their "best behavior"... how can you ever get to know someone in that kind of situation?

That is so true, that list is just a poor substitute for actually getting to know someone.

Not that there's anything wrong with talking things through before you marry - on the contrary. But there's a difference between having a serious talk with someone that you already care for and are serious about, and "cross-examining" each other like it's a job interview instead of gradually and naturally getting to know them.

[emeraldskull]

That is so true, that list is just a poor substitute for actually getting to know someone.

Not that there's anything wrong with talking things through before you marry - on the contrary. But there's a difference between having a serious talk with someone that you already care for and are serious about, and "cross-examining" each other like it's a job interview instead of gradually and naturally getting to know them.

Exactly. Talking through things is pretty much a necessity of a good relationship. I think that's where the difference is... we say "talk through things" meaning in a very deep, personal and intimate way. This kind of talking you can't do with a chaperone. You aren't going to say what you really think, really feel, what makes you tick, what you think about your family... if your 15 year old sister is sitting between you the whole time. :-P

The list of questions are all so... impersonal. They are really just designed to make sure a prospective spouse is pushing their same agenda. :-P

[demgirl]

The list of questions are all so... impersonal. They are really just designed to make sure a prospective spouse is pushing their same agenda.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!