Evolution

[slickcat79]

Evolution is one of the subjects that I just can't with the fundies. In many ways, the former fundies on this board are in a better position to debate with the fundies on the subject.

I come from a long line of educators and I just don't have the patience to argue with anyone who can't grasp scientific evidence. I remember being five or six years old and my Dad explaining evolution to me. It made sense to me then and continues to make sense to me now.

And yet, the fundies want me to believe that it's all a big scientific conspiracy? Trust me, the scientists aren't that organized.

And on top of that, they want you to believe that goddidit with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Academic standards, they can haz them!

[Sailing on Europa]

I am a grad student in biology. There is a creationist IN MY GRADUATE PROGRAM. It baffles the hell out of me. Normally, creationists have not been exposed to a lot of science, and it's frustrating, but I get it. With this girl, there is simply no excuse. Interestingly, she NEVER brings her views up in class. She told me about it outside of class when she was tabling with her church group. She will sit at that table every week and preach to random people, but she NEVER brings creationism up in class with people who could actually argue with her. I really really really want to "out" her, because I want all of our colleagues and professors to know her ridiculous views.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am a grad student in biology. There is a creationist IN MY GRADUATE PROGRAM. It baffles the hell out of me. Normally, creationists have not been exposed to a lot of science, and it's frustrating, but I get it. With this girl, there is simply no excuse. Interestingly, she NEVER brings her views up in class. She told me about it outside of class when she was tabling with her church group. She will sit at that table every week and preach to random people, but she NEVER brings creationism up in class with people who could actually argue with her. I really really really want to "out" her, because I want all of our colleagues and professors to know her ridiculous views.

I'm guessing that's the only reason she made it to graduate level. If she keeps her head down and hides the crazy, she'll soon be able to say "I've got a MSc (or PhD?) in biology and even I think evolution is bunk!"

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont think theres any excuse to be a creationist nowadays (unless you were born into a fundie cult and havent been allowed to see the world yet). Its a scientific fact. It doesnt even mean theres no God, for all we know, God could have helped it along. There are Christians who believe in evolution in this way.

My brother understood evolution at about age 8.

[Fargood]

She will sit at that table every week and preach to random people, but she NEVER brings creationism up in class with people who could actually argue with her.

I feel this way about lawyers who are anti-gay marriage. From those attorneys I've encountered, they never attempted to take a legal position on why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry (because marriage is a contract!) Instead, they sort of get really quiet and when directly confronted, they hmmm and ahhhh about how it's a religious freedom issue. I'm all, "whatevs."

[YPestis]

I am a grad student in biology. There is a creationist IN MY GRADUATE PROGRAM. It baffles the hell out of me. Normally, creationists have not been exposed to a lot of science, and it's frustrating, but I get it. With this girl, there is simply no excuse. Interestingly, she NEVER brings her views up in class. She told me about it outside of class when she was tabling with her church group. She will sit at that table every week and preach to random people, but she NEVER brings creationism up in class with people who could actually argue with her. I really really really want to "out" her, because I want all of our colleagues and professors to know her ridiculous views.

It could be she understands evolution and how it pervasive it is in biology but she "shuts down" that part of her brain when she's in religious mode. I've heard of physicians who do something similar. Also, some creationists will support "microevolution" but not "macroevolution" even though there's no difference. It would be interesting to ask how she deals with what's taught at school and her personal views. Also, does she do research? Deal with mutations and natural selection?

[shrewlu]

Whining about a discipline's terminology =/= an argument. And that's most of what this blogger does.

From Wikipedia: '"Nature" refers to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. It ranges in scale from the subatomic to the cosmic.' The physical world does a shit ton of things. Just because it's not doing them consciously doesn't mean it's not doing them. Just because a God is (allegedly) behind a natural occurrence doesn't mean nature isn't doing this. For example: when my foot kicks a ball, I am making it do so. But my foot is still kicking a ball.

That's also a complete non-argument because "Natural History" doesn't imply that nature is doing anything. A very common sense interpretation of the phrase would simply be "history of things that have happened in nature". However, natural history's real definition is "the study of living organisms".

It's also a non-argument because flailing about semantics does not back up a point.

Again, if you're going to moan about semantics, first realize that it won't back up your point one iota, and secondly understand the terms you are critiquing. Things can be selected without a conscious choice being made. My laptop is not conscious, yet many selections are being made to keep it the right temperature, to keep the screen at an ideal level of brightness, etc. Also, the phrase "natural selection" doesn't imply that nature is selecting something, it implies a selection that is natural.

Life from non-life is not part of evolutionary theory. I'm going to repeat that, because apparently it is a difficult thing to grasp. LIFE FROM NON-LIFE IS NOT PART OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. Really, though everyone who doesn't believe that the earth appeared with life already on it believes that "life from non-life" happened. Including creationists. Who also have no evidence, I'll add.

Where can we find transitional fossils?

- The London specimen of Archaeopteryx is in London's Natural History Museum.

- The Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx is in the Humboldt Museum für Naturkunde in Berlin.

- The Haarlem specimen of Archaeopteryx is the Teylers Museum in the Netherlands.

- The Eichstätt specimen of Archaeopteryx is in the Jura Museum, in Germany.

- The Solnhofen specimen of Archaeopteryx is in the Bürgermeister-Müller-Museum in Germany.

- The Munich specimen of Archaeopteryx is in the Paläontologisches Museum München in Germany.

- The Daiting specimen of Archaeopteryx is still in Daiting, Suevia, still in its rock bed.

- The Bürgermeister-Müller specimen of Archaeopteryx is also in the Bürgermeister-Müller museum.

- The Thermopolis specimen of Archaeopteryx is in the Royal Tyrrell Museum, in Alberta.

- The Maxberg specimen of Archaeopteryx has been missing for years, but was last seen in the possession of the German man who discovered it.

- The eleventh Archaeopteryx specimen is in a private collection.

- Lucy the Australopithecus is in the National Museum of Ethiopia.

- Selam the Australopithecus is presumably in a lab in California.

- I can't find where the Australopithecus "First Family" is being kept, though the pieces are probably separate by now.

- There is a Pakicetus being kept at the Royal Ontario Museum.

- There is a Basilosaurus in the National Museum of Natural History. THIS IDIOT WAS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF IT.

- There is an Ambulocetus at the Naturalis Museum in the Netherlands.

- The Tiktaalik fossils are presumably still in a lab in the US.

The term "geological column" is new to me, and I've taken quite a bit of biology at this point, so it might be safe to assume that it's one of those straw men creationists prefer to argue against instead of actual evolutionary concepts. It is pretty much only used by creationist websites, and can refer to either a series of layers of sedimentary rock from each time period or to the geological timeline of the Earth. If the blogger is using it in the former sense...well that doesn't make sense. You can't publish rocks, and the earth's crust is different all over, so there can't be just one. If they're using it in the latter sense, they're simply lying. There's a published geological timeline of the Earth sitting on my nightstand, in my biology textbook. It was in my high school biology textbooks, too. And it's in my encyclopedia. Heck, it's even on Wikipedia.

New species appearing? Speciation has occurred in Galapagos finches in the past 30 years.

Beneficial mutations? There is a mutation that makes humans resistant to HIV, and another that makes them resistant to Malaria. Beneficial mutations are also seen in other species. They are most easily spotted in bacteria and yeasts since they reproduce so quickly.

Increasing complexity in living organisms. We've observed certain species of reptiles slowly transitioning from oviparous to viviparous, which is arguably an increase in complexity. A group of Italian wall lizards, when transported to a new island as an invasive species, has observably evolved to have an extra feature in their digestive system, which is definitely an increase in complexity.

I want to marry this post and sing its contents from the rooftops.

[Megan]

Doh. I meant a lot of my family believe in a literal seven days creation from the bible. The link seems like it would be easy for them to understand

I think you could save it to your computer, then go to facebook and click "Add Photos/Video" (located right above the update status box). Choose the picture and post.

[mg78]

I am a grad student in biology. There is a creationist IN MY GRADUATE PROGRAM. It baffles the hell out of me. Normally, creationists have not been exposed to a lot of science, and it's frustrating, but I get it. With this girl, there is simply no excuse. Interestingly, she NEVER brings her views up in class. She told me about it outside of class when she was tabling with her church group. She will sit at that table every week and preach to random people, but she NEVER brings creationism up in class with people who could actually argue with her. I really really really want to "out" her, because I want all of our colleagues and professors to know her ridiculous views.

One of my labmates told me that in his previous lab, there was this guy (PhD level) that would start all his seminaries talking about how wonderful was God to have created such a complex system, praise the Lord this and that. He said it was very bizarre but he was a good scientist.

There are several universities with labs that study intelligent design also. You should tell your classmate to work there...

[Vex]

Considering there are doctors, medical doctors, who don't believe in evolution I think a creationist in a graduate biology class is not so alarming. Every time I see a new doctor I pray they believe in evolution.

One of the fundies I worked with once tried to give me a long, drawn-out and entirely improbable explanation for why something (I don't remember what, it's been several years) was the way it was. I looked at her and just said, "Occam's Razor." She tilted her head, went silent for a few seconds, and said, "I don't get it. What does shaving have to do with anything?"

That is just priceless. Sad, but priceless. Poor fundies and their convoluted thinking. If something requires mental gymnastics to explain it's probably not true or accurate. Although, to be fair, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got it right when he wrote "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.â€

August, your comment about a herd of captive atheists made me actually LOL.

[Minerva]

I'm guessing that's the only reason she made it to graduate level. If she keeps her head down and hides the crazy, she'll soon be able to say "I've got a MSc (or PhD?) in biology and even I think evolution is bunk!"

Wouldn't surprise me if that's part of why she took biology.

I don't think you would find a creationist who specialized in evolutionary biology, but I can see a creationist majoring in biology. I've seen otherwise well-informed, rational people put up with a lot of cognitive dissonance in the name of sticking with the religious views they're accustomed to. I bet you could sail through the handful of evolutionary biology courses required for a biology degree while thinking about the content as little as possible and come out the other end still a creationist, but I think specializing in evolutionary biology is a bit too much to ask from someone who is determined not to believe in it.

[Megan]

Wouldn't surprise me if that's part of why she took biology.

I don't think you would find a creationist who specialized in evolutionary biology, but I can see a creationist majoring in biology. I've seen otherwise well-informed, rational people put up with a lot of cognitive dissonance in the name of sticking with the religious views they're accustomed to. I bet you could sail through the handful of evolutionary biology courses required for a biology degree while thinking about the content as little as possible and come out the other end still a creationist, but I think specializing in evolutionary biology is a bit too much to ask from someone who is determined not to believe in it.

Isn't the "I'm a creationist with a PhD in ____" what one of the creationist museum guys did? It looks like Kurt Wise has a PhD in geology. A book I read (Can't remember which one... Possibly Rapture Ready?) had a discussion with literalists who went for PhDs in the sciences, largely to "infiltrate" the academy and try and make their ideas seem less uneducated and fringe-y. I think the book said many of the young earth geologists write their dissertations on gaps in the records or something similar.

[PennySycamore]

I'm majoring in paeleoanthropology, the study of ancient human beings. Human Evolution is a huge part of my courseload.

I don't understand how people can deny the fossil record. We have a very clear idea of how and when humans (and other animals, plants, the land and the oceans) have evolved. I've seen fundies claim archaeologists are all involved in a fossil-making conspiracy, but so far nobody has taught me how to fake evidence in any of my archaeology classes ):

I do not understand how you can say there is DEFINITELY a God, there's proof ('miracles' and the bible) but then say in the same breath that evolution doesn't exist, there's no proof.

Cool that you're studying paleoanthropology, Vex! I was an anthropology major myself way back in the 70s. I remember in the early 80s some neighbors giving us a copy of one of Duane Gish's books to read. This creationist wacko just flat out lied about the fossil evidence.

Cognitive dissonance explains a lot with these folks.

[Vex]

Cool that you're studying paleoanthropology, Vex! I was an anthropology major myself way back in the 70s. I remember in the early 80s some neighbors giving us a copy of one of Duane Gish's books to read. This creationist wacko just flat out lied about the fossil evidence.

Cognitive dissonance explains a lot with these folks.

It's great to see another anthropology major! My major is technically a double, archaeology and paeleoanthropology but in spite of that they just don't seem to trust me enough to teach me how to fake fossils and ancient hominin skeletons yet. Maybe when I get my masters?

I've read Duane Gish! One of my minors is religion and sometimes I get to work in the clash of religion and science (or fundies if I'm lucky) and I wrote about him for a paper one time. Guy was (is?) crazy as a loon, the way he'd talk a mile a minute so as to steamroll people... his writing really wasn't any better. I read his 'Evolution? The fossils say no!' book. Half or me wanted to laugh and half of me was hardcore raging.

[debrand]

I think you could save it to your computer, then go to facebook and click "Add Photos/Video" (located right above the update status box). Choose the picture and post.

That is so simple that I should have thought of it myself. :oops: