Geoff Botkin smackdown

[Marian the Librarian]

The eloquent Katie Botkin (cousin of A-S and E) has posted a loving tribute to her paternal grandfather. In it, she shoots gaping holes into the "I was raised an evil Marxist, but saw the light and became a God-fearing Christian" story her Uncle Geoff has been bruiting about for years (bolding mine):

According to my uncle Geoff, growing up attending public schools made him into a Marxist — I assume that’s what he means when he says “I was trained to be a compliant, rational Marxist. I was recruited to be a self-conscious supporter of a social order that was Marxist. This required my willing trust in the state as a utopian savior and antagonism to the God of Christendom,†since you could not possibly assert that my Grandparents or any of their friends were Marxists. As far as the wishes of my Grandfather were concerned, the four children were trained to be conservative, God-fearing Christians, although they were apparently not forced to go to church every Sunday. I suppose my uncle might believe that the fact that he learned math from teachers whose salaries were paid by taxes means that he was implicitly inculcated with the idea that taxes should pay for education — while perhaps concurrently assuming that taxation (or public school) is more or less Marxism. Or perhaps that’s a veiled reference to the fact that he grew up reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Or perhaps, unknown to any of the rest of my family, he really did toy with the idea of Marxism in high school or college. He attended high school in the late 1960s, shortly before his move to Norman, Oklahoma, and personal conversion to Christianity in the early 1970s. I suppose it’s entirely possible that he knew people who talked about Marxism during this timeframe. Whatever the case, it would be a great blow to my Grandfather to have been lumped in with a supposedly-Marxist upbringing, which is what some people seem to assume about him based on my uncle’s assertions.

kbotkin.com

[Arete]

Sure Geoff. In the 1960s, you couldn't even walk to your high school locker without being innudated by a Marxist rant from a teacher or fellow student. :?

People eat this shit up and ask for seconds. :angry-banghead:

[Hane]

You GO, Katie! Smack down that lying liar who lies.

[helloemi]

I'm really enjoying her blog. Her satirical post "In the interest of Biblical Marriage" was pretty funny. I'm guessing Geoff doesn't allow his daughters to get together with Katie, lest they start thinking for themselves.

[themadapple]

Again, an excellent post from Kate.

It's very interesting to read. While I don't think there is anything wrong with being a Marxist, Geoff Botkin obviously does. If he promotes honoring the venerable fathers (and he certainly expects his children to do so), then why does he spread these misconceptions about his own? It does seem he resents his own upbringing, which appears to be more or less conventional for the time as far as church and school are concerned. To be considered of importance in his world, he may feel compelled to renounce anything even slightly reeking of wicked "liberal" ways. Perhaps the past is rendered invalid and everything good and holy begins with him. Ah, twisted . . .

[Sola]

Katy Botkin is awesome. It's hard to believe that she's in the same gene pool that spawned Geoff and the two Robotkins.

[gustava]

I wonder what elicited her post? Has Geoff been more obnoxious of late?

[Minerva]

Wow, if only every fundie royalty family had a cousin they disagreed with publicly calling them out on their lies. Oh, and Marxism requires worshipping the State in place of Jesus? Wait til I tell the Christian Marxists I know, they'll be surprised.

[Olive Plant]

I wonder what elicited her post? Has Geoff been more obnoxious of late?

Well, it was posted on the anniversarry of her Grandfather's death, so I assume that has something to do with it.

What happened to the other Botkin siblings besides Geoff and Katie's Dad? They must not be fundie or we probably would have heard about them before now.

[Creaky Mom]

Well, it was posted on the anniversarry of her Grandfather's death, so I assume that has something to do with it.

What happened to the other Botkin siblings besides Geoff and Katie's Dad? They must not be fundie or we probably would have heard about them before now.

Brainsample might know that.

She seemed to know a lot about Botkins. But I haven't seen her here for a long time.

Nice that someone, who knows, is setting the record straight.

[mkitten]

Brainsample might know that.

She seemed to know a lot about Botkins. But I haven't seen her here for a long time.

Nice that someone, who knows, is setting the record straight.

They're probably trying to stay out of the whole mess; although one can hope that they are quietly working behind the scenes to provide a safe way out for the Robotkins, if they ever decide that Prince Charming isn't coming and want out.

[Ex 2x2]

Katie Botkin,

You rock!!!

[MonkeyMomma]

I wonder what elicited her post? Has Geoff been more obnoxious of late?

Can you imagine spending holidays with him? Egads.

[caito]

Haha that's so awesome.

[JesusFightClub]

This annoys the fuck out of me (no offence to Katie Botkin, it's not her I'm pissed off with.). Firstly, while I know this is the US line of thought, it gets at me a bit that being a Marxist is seen as an insulting assumption. But we'll pass that over for the time being.

Secondly, as a Marxist of over ten years, I'm forced to admit I'm still no theoretician. My mind doesn't work that way. And I am still willing to bet, while I'll never write great theoretical tomes or get multiple professorships, I could take Geoff Botkin apart in seconds on the subject. My secret hope is one day, I get to try.

From googling Geoff and his "Marxism"

"To show the Marxist’s great power and influence in Hollywood, Mr. Botkin shared several quotes, inlcuding this by screenwriter-director Philip Dunne, in his 1980 memoirs, “All over town the industrious communist tail wagged the lazy liberal dog.â€

I was trained to be a compliant, rational Marxist. I was recruited to be a self-conscious supporter of a social order that was Marxist. This required my willing trust in the state as a utopian savior and antagonism to the God of Christendom.

I was not only a Marxist, but a Marxist social engineer with a reinforced sinful desire to see people molded coercively into the social order I thought best.

Both friends and enemies of American social engineering refer to it as Marxist not because Marx invented the science but because he gave social engineering its diabolical purposefulness.

The first one is a complete misunderstanding of how Marxists operate and the power and influence they had in the days he's talking about. The second, third and fourth are not even just badly skewed interpretations of Marxism, they actually go against the ideas involved.

(There's an amusing typo too:

Doctors, Lawyers, Certified Pubic Accountants, and Nurses willingly act as agents of the state, enforcing unreasonable demands of an intervening bureaucracy.

:lol: ]

But seriously. He doesn't sound vaguely like he was ever a comrade. Some people do, and they change their minds and go to the Right or whatever, and you can still hear in their talk where they began. They know the basic theories and they wouldn't get caught out by the kind of simple errors he makes.

[mockingbird]

This annoys the fuck out of me (no offence to Katie Botkin, it's not her I'm pissed off with.). Firstly, while I know this is the US line of thought, it gets at me a bit that being a Marxist is seen as an insulting assumption. But we'll pass that over for the time being.

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt (due to her history of well-thought out, reasonable posts) that she herself doesn't think Marxism is ebil and is just starting from the standpoint of rebuking her uncle's claims without putting her own politics into it. As in, even if he thinks Marxism is ebil he never actually was one so he can't use that as an argument against it. ETA: As for her grandfather I think she is trying just to state that he was anti-Marxist.

However, she did kind-of come off implying that she shares her family members' anti-Marxist opinions and like with her other satirical post about marriage equality, I think it would have been helpful to put a disclaimer or note about her personal views so she doesn't unintentionally imply something she doesn't mean. I sometimes feel like she doesn't want to put too much of her personal life into these posts and just keep them theoretical, maybe to try to keep some rapport with her relatives, but at least to me sometimes that makes her point a little unclear or muddled. I do like her though and I appreciate that she is comfortable speaking out against her fundy relatives in a public manner.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

But seriously. He doesn't sound vaguely like he was ever a comrade. Some people do, and they change their minds and go to the Right or whatever, and you can still hear in their talk where they began. They know the basic theories and they wouldn't get caught out by the kind of simple errors he makes.

That's what makes this snark extra good - Botkin knows that nothing sells like a great "overcoming hardship to finally see the light" story, and he's chosen to pretend at "look, I was raised a Marxist!" because he knows that "Marxism" (note the quotes) is the antithesis of all that is good, God-fearing, and American. :roll: So it's a convenient foil for him, just as other people run to fake addiction memoirs and the like. It sells better if you've overcome some sort of hardship.

He doesn't need to know what Marxism actually entails because his followers don't particularly care, they just note the buzzword for effect and move on, it's just so much backstory.

But in using it he manages to insult not just Marxism (for it or against it, he's not giving it justice or actually engaging with it) AND his own parents at the same time. It's not about actual Marxism at all, there, but the way he uses it as a foil means he's saying "my parents were horrible people who indoctrinated me and I had to fight to get to the truth." Way to go, Mr. "honor thy father and mother."

And Katie calls him out on it. Way to go Katie.

[Arete]

The fact that he is peddling a line that he was being indoctrinated in Marxism in a US high school in the 1960s ought to be enough to discredit him with his VF peers of the same age, and yet somehow they manage to open up their minds to Geoff's story and let their brains fall out. Hell, I'd be willing to believe his father was a closeted Marxist, they existed. But that he was encountering a whole Marxist system of indoctrination in a US public school? That's one glass of Kool-Aid too many, thanks.

[mockingbird]

[Way to go, Mr. "honor thy father and mother."

This commandment doesn't seem to be too popular with many fundy patriarchs. See: JimBob.

[Arete]

This commandment doesn't seem to be too popular with many fundy patriarchs. See: JimBob.

Add Steve Maxwell to the list.

[emmiedahl]

Maybe what he means is that he heard about Marxism in a sociology class and thus knows all about it. :lol:

[synchroswimr]

Maybe what he means is that he heard about Marxism in a sociology class and thus knows all about it. :lol:

I think it is safe to say (though unfortunate) that most Americans (especially conservatives) don't know what Marxism and communism really are.

[Olive Plant]

Secondly, as a Marxist of over ten years, I'm forced to admit I'm still no theoretician. My mind doesn't work that way. And I am still willing to bet, while I'll never write great theoretical tomes or get multiple professorships, I could take Geoff Botkin apart in seconds on the subject. My secret hope is one day, I get to try.

From googling Geoff and his "Marxism"

The first one is a complete misunderstanding of how Marxists operate and the power and influence they had in the days he's talking about. The second, third and fourth are not even just badly skewed interpretations of Marxism, they actually go against the ideas involved.

You know what's funny? Geoff B's line of thinking seems to be "the Marxists do this. It's very clever. So let's do the same thing to the glory of God." Regardless of whether Marxists actually DO do this or not, Geoff and his ilk are kind of obsessive about seeing people "molded coervicely into the social order" they think best. All of his videos I've seen are freaking propaganda. All his cries for political change are NOT what the majority of America wants. It's like he took a page out what he's constructed in his head as The Marxist Handbook of Doom and decided to copy it for his own purposes. I wish somebody who knows more about Marxism would talk more about this on the Interwebs and rip this guy a new one, because its true that most Americans don't know a whole lot about Marxism. JFC, do you have a blog? Or could you co-star on someone else's?

[theologygeek]

This annoys the fuck out of me (no offence to Katie Botkin, it's not her I'm pissed off with.). Firstly, while I know this is the US line of thought, it gets at me a bit that being a Marxist is seen as an insulting assumption. But we'll pass that over for the time being.

Secondly, as a Marxist of over ten years, I'm forced to admit I'm still no theoretician. My mind doesn't work that way. And I am still willing to bet, while I'll never write great theoretical tomes or get multiple professorships, I could take Geoff Botkin apart in seconds on the subject. My secret hope is one day, I get to try.

From googling Geoff and his "Marxism"

The first one is a complete misunderstanding of how Marxists operate and the power and influence they had in the days he's talking about. The second, third and fourth are not even just badly skewed interpretations of Marxism, they actually go against the ideas involved.

(There's an amusing typo too:

:lol: ]

But seriously. He doesn't sound vaguely like he was ever a comrade. Some people do, and they change their minds and go to the Right or whatever, and you can still hear in their talk where they began. They know the basic theories and they wouldn't get caught out by the kind of simple errors he makes.

Geoff Botkin has a God business. He's no different from any of the others who do. They all spread misconceptions and instill fear. It sells. During my fundie depression I realized something. They aren't going to change because this is what butters their bread. They like the money they are making and will say and do anything to keep the cash rolling in. Don't let them annoy you. It's not worth it.

[gustava]

Well, it was posted on the anniversarry of her Grandfather's death, so I assume that has something to do with it.

What happened to the other Botkin siblings besides Geoff and Katie's Dad? They must not be fundie or we probably would have heard about them before now.

Thanks, Olive.