Geoff Botkin smackdown

[JesusFightClub]

Olive Plant, I have a blog, but it sits around doing nowt as I haven't figured out what to do with it. The problem is, I suppose, that people who listen to Geoff's arguments wouldn't listen to mine (or the huge amount of Marxist tradition, theory, faction infighting, history, victories and failures that he completely ignores because they don't serve his purpose.)

It also amuses me slightly, and aggravates me more, that Marxism is seen as Ultimate Evil. I could take anyone who sees it as a faceless doom to the meetings I have been to over the past week. In one, you'd see (Marxist) schoolteachers worrying about the effect proposed government cuts would have on their pupils. In another, you'd hear a debate from a Marxist perspective on whether Scottish independence was the way forward. In another, you could hear Marxists setting forward ideas about how best to approach the council for extra funding for a collective garden on a deprived council estate.

We are at times painfully earnest, far too dogmatic, mistaken, and various other dodgy things. What we aren't is some kind of faceless evil horde. Geoff Botkin's making money off telling people that a particular political perspective is literally Satanic indoctrination. This is a bit sad. Not even the fash are that.

[SisiL78]

I really like Kate Botkin. I suspect she, or another family member outside of the fundy fold, will be what the Robotkinettes flee to when they finally get so old that no one will listen to their message. Or when Daddy decides that the only way to continue selling their books (because you know that its Daddy and not AS&E who keeps the money) is to marry them off to some d-bag whose only requirements be that he's relatively good looking and/or a good speaker who is willing to marry an "old maid" instead of some 18 year old.

I'm not surprised at the weird interpretation of Marxism from Geoff Botkin... After all don't Anna Sophia and Elizabeth dress up as Anne Boleyn and praise her as the savior of Protestantism? I'm sure they've made even bigger historical mistakes. The fact of the matter is that they have a super weird interpretation of history overall. Its rather easy to take a grain of truth and spin it to fit your world view.

I'm most likely a socialist. Its a dirty word because Marxism, Communism, and Socialism is associated with dictatorships. But, looking at true socialistic countries or ways I see happier people with better lives. I've met people who grew up in Kibbutzes who yearn for that sort of life now that they've moved on to a more Western and singular lifestyle. The sense of community is amazing. I've had family live overseas and the wonderful, nearly free education, government sponsored healthcare, and other perks that come with a slightly higher tax rate are amazing.

In having an argument with my overseas family they waxed poetically about the "low" taxes that I paid. Then I pointed out that I had to pay 125 a month for my healthcare (its twice that now that I'm a student) and my college loan payments of 500 a month. And if I had kids that would be at least 250 a month for the healthcare that my employer "pays" for. I have less vacation, and I get paid less because of the benefits that they have to give me. So who is paying more? Yes, our taxes are lower and we have "Choices" but, we get so much less and in the end we pay more overall. I rather give money to the government knowing that I will be taken care of if sh*t happens rather than pay through an employer who sees me just as a replaceable commodity. Honestly, I think these fundies would be secretly thrilled to live in the lands of free and plentiful maternal care and countries where they'd get so many freebies without asking. And this would all be at the expense of taxpayers, a group which the fundies do not usually belong to these days. I can see them comfortably living "on the dole" and selling their books/crafts for cash while taking all they can. I honestly believe that they all lie about not getting food stamps and welfare. I'll bet that lots of the families take tons of government help. I'd bet that the Maxwell boys are not legally married to their wives and that those wives receive welfare and food stamps. There is no way that they could afford what they have without help from an outside source. They travel long distances in order to talk to a handful of people and sell a few books? IF those sales pay for gas I'd be shocked. I just hope that they don't also raid the food pantries and take advantage of church charities that are so cash strapped at the moment that they have to turn away truly hungry people.

I also wouldn't be surprised if someone like Steve Maxwell doesn't own his kid's houses and is renting it out and getting HUD funds. These people are scammers. They lie and cheat and then talk about godliness.

Edited because I have started writing as if I graduated from the SOTDRT

[Witsec1]

I don't think Geoff Botkin ever equates his high school in Norman, OK with Marxist indoctrination. I think that's Katie interpreting Uncle Geoff's story very charitably, to avoid bluntly saying he's a lying liar who knowingly lies. Geoff probably does think that public high school is Marxist indoctrination, but I think the point of the story is to prove the dramatic arc of his "testimony." He doesn't want to give the impression that his upbringing was pretty much like any other middle-aged middle class Midwestern guy, he needs to be exotic and special.

Someone (Brainsample/Under Much Grace?) nailed down the true origin of the "Marxist' story: one of Geoff's fellow cult members in the Great Commission grew up in Poland under Communism, and then came to America as a young man and was converted/joined the GC cult. This person at least could truthfully claim to have been "indoctrinated" (i.e. forced to take classes) in Marxism, though I'm guessing he might have exaggerated his enthusiasm. Anyhoo, as I recall the Polish-American guy even came forward to say that Geoff's testimony was lifted from his own, and Cindy/Brainsample had examples of how specific details/phrases were lifted from the original.

[grovelina]

emmiedahl wrote:

Maybe what he means is that he heard about Marxism in a sociology class and thus knows all about it. :lol:

Of course Emmie, you found the link! sociology=socialist=marxist. Of course if he had actually taken a sociology course and understood it, one would hope his view points would be a little less.... hidebound.

[pixydust]

The fact that he is peddling a line that he was being indoctrinated in Marxism in a US high school in the 1960s ought to be enough to discredit him with his VF peers of the same age, and yet somehow they manage to open up their minds to Geoff's story and let their brains fall out. Hell, I'd be willing to believe his father was a closeted Marxist, they existed. But that he was encountering a whole Marxist system of indoctrination in a US public school? That's one glass of Kool-Aid too many, thanks.

When I was a fundie-lite kid Marxism, communism, socialism, and liberalism were interchangeable with each other. They all meant "people/ideas that are different from us, and therefore scary and sinful."