Fundes and abortion fantasies

[AtroposHeart]

Why is it that fundies have so many strange fantasies about abortion? Isn't it horrible enough in their eyes not to make stuff up about it. I remember a bill proposed to stop aborted fetuses to be sold as food, and there si that crazy blogpost recently discussed about babies in pepsi bottles.

I have even had several fundies after finding out I am Pagan accuse me us using aborted fetuses in rituals.

Have you ever any crazy abortion fantasies

[Maat Mama]

How about this: abortion is safe, legal, equally accessible in judgement-free environments to all women, affordable to any woman who needs it, and fully protected FOREVER under the Constitution of the United States?

Or is that too crazy?

[ElphabaGalinda]

How about this: abortion is safe, legal, equally accessible in judgement-free environments to all women, affordable to any woman who needs it, and fully protected FOREVER under the Constitution of the United States?

Or is that too crazy?

That is my fantasy too, but I live in Canada, so I wanted it protection forever everywhere.

I think they say it's sold as food like Pepsi, or compare it to the Holocaust of all other kinds of ridiculous nonsensical things because they don't want to face the fact that it's not as horrible as they were brainwashed to believe. If something is promoted as the BIG EVIL in their culture, they need to make it sound evil, rather than the medical procedure some women choose because they want to end a pregnancy for whatever reason, which doesn't sound nearly as threatening.

They totally fail at any logical discussion about abortion so they need to make stuff up that's even outrageous to us liberal heathens. Believing fetuses are in Pepsi gives me a whole new perspective on Teri Maxwell and her former idol :lol:

[GeoBQn]

There's a clip in Lake of Fire where a "priest" (not sure if he was a real one or just dressing the part) claimed that he saw Planned Parenthood workers barbecuing fetuses on grills in front of the building. I watched that clip and thought, how come nobody in the room is calling him out as a liar? Even if you are against abortion, you have to have some common sense about what sounds outlandishly fake, right?

[Visionoyahweh]

Apparently doctors and nurses don't perform abortion, just random sadistic people in white coats. Sure, PP says they use doctors, but we all know they're just random medicalish people.

I've actually heard this argument. I wanted to ask why if that were the case why wasn't PP shut down ages ago, as that's patently illegal. I didn't get the chance, unfortunately.

[DifferentGurl]

Why is it that fundies have so many strange fantasies about abortion? Isn't it horrible enough in their eyes not to make stuff up about it. I remember a bill proposed to stop aborted fetuses to be sold as food, and there si that crazy blogpost recently discussed about babies in pepsi bottles.

I have even had several fundies after finding out I am Pagan accuse me us using aborted fetuses in rituals.

Have you ever any crazy abortion fantasies

Reminds me of Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal". I wonder if fundies think of abortion whenever they read this essay.

[Maat Mama]

Fundies? Read???? C'mon.

[reckoner]

I just wanted to point out where the whole Pepsi myth got started: http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/pepsi.asp

Apparently there's a company partnered with Pepsi that used cells from an aborted fetus to test flavors. It was one fetus from years ago and they derived more cells from that to do their flavor research on. At no point (obviously) has there been aborted fetuses in Pepsi. But most pro-lifers I've come across have difficulty with science anyway so explaining this doesn't help.

[luckystone]

I repeatedly hear from both fundies and non-fundies that aborted foetuses are in vaccinations. I assume it's some cell line from ages ago, although even then I can't remember if that's true or not.

[Three and Done]

Reminds me of Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal". I wonder if fundies think of abortion whenever they read this essay.

I highly doubt ANY fundie with their SOTDRT educayshun has any idea who Swift is or has ever read that piece!

[B5SnowDog]

They do use cell lines originally taken from two(?) aborted fetuses to produce some vaccines.

If you're interested, I found a letter from the Vatican discussing the ethical concerns about using vaccines that are developed with such cell lines: Moral Reflections On Vaccines Prepared From Cells. It cites several papers if you want to learn more about fetal cell lines.

[VintageJen1984]

They do use cell lines originally taken from two(?) aborted fetuses to produce some vaccines.

If you're interested, I found a letter from the Vatican discussing the ethical concerns about using vaccines that are developed with such cell lines: Moral Reflections On Vaccines Prepared From Cells. It cites several papers if you want to learn more about fetal cell lines.

Did not make it all the way through because I'm tired, so I don't know what conclusion was reached.

That being said, if the two aborted foetuses were from 1964 and 1970, isn't it a bit weird to not use vaccines today? Isn't that sort of like a vegan not buying secondhand leather furniture? If you buy the leather furniture from the store, they profit, so will continue to kill cows to make furniture. But if it was bought 30 years ago, and you buy it secondhand, the furniture maker will not recieve any more profit from it, and since the cow is already dead anyway, at least you can stretch the use gotten from it's death. Isn't it the same here? How is not vaccinating today going to do a thing to stop the abortions performed 40-50 years ago? Or am I missing something?

And I say all this and I'm pro-life and anti-vaccinating. :lol:

[Patsy]

Did not make it all the way through because I'm tired, so I don't know what conclusion was reached.

That being said, if the two aborted foetuses were from 1964 and 1970, isn't it a bit weird to not use vaccines today? Isn't that sort of like a vegan not buying secondhand leather furniture? If you buy the leather furniture from the store, they profit, so will continue to kill cows to make furniture. But if it was bought 30 years ago, and you buy it secondhand, the furniture maker will not recieve any more profit from it, and since the cow is already dead anyway, at least you can stretch the use gotten from it's death. Isn't it the same here? How is not vaccinating today going to do a thing to stop the abortions performed 40-50 years ago? Or am I missing something?

And I say all this and I'm pro-life and anti-vaccinating. :lol:

Or like someone refusing to use hypothermia info to treat a patient, because most of the info came from Nazi experimentation. Or like refusing to make yoghurt from your remainders of yoghurt, after discovering that the original sample culture that your sister used to make her yoghurt that you used to start your first yoghurt, was stolen.

[Anxious Girl]

Fundies? Read???? C'mon.

They only read the bigoted ignorant dogma that was shoved down their throats and then blog about it to feel accepted by their fellow fundies; or they really like the kool-aid they drank. They also read the parts of the Bible that their fundie communites find "Godlike" and not the whole fuckin' thing, and some creationism bullshit to show how "educated and smart" they are. Ah, fundie logic. Don't think it through; it'll hurt your head. Fundies only reading these types of pro-fundie propaganda probably feeds into their delusional fantasies.

[emmiedahl]

Their real fantasies are about who has abortions and how often and why. I recently had the abortion debate of the century online and this is what they all seem to believe.

1. Women routinely get late term abortions for no reason at all.

2. Women will convince a man that they want his baby, even though they are planning to abort the eventual pregnancy. Out of pure malice, to break his heart.

3. Women get pregnant repeatedly because it is easier to abort than to take birth control.

4. And then there is this broad definition of convenience that they share. I suggested that maybe women without a defined medical reason might have a vague medical reason. Like the fact that I nearly died in labor a few times; while not a medically indicated abortion, a person with that experience might see the pregnancy as a threat to their lives nonetheless. The fundies on my board said they classify that as convenience. Same with a woman who is debilitated by pregnancy to the point where existing children are being neglected. That's convenience apparently.

5. Pregnancy is only for nine months, with no long lasting effects.

Honestly, this is all bullshit. Even when I was pro-life I did not believe any of that crap. Also, these women had no idea how an abortion is performed. No fucking idea about the medical procedure they hate so much.

The

[Anxious Girl]

Their real fantasies are about who has abortions and how often and why. I recently had the abortion debate of the century online and this is what they all seem to believe.

1. Women routinely get late term abortions for no reason at all.

2. Women will convince a man that they want his baby, even though they are planning to abort the eventual pregnancy. Out of pure malice, to break his heart.

3. Women get pregnant repeatedly because it is easier to abort than to take birth control.

4. And then there is this broad definition of convenience that they share. I suggested that maybe women without a defined medical reason might have a vague medical reason. Like the fact that I nearly died in labor a few times; while not a medically indicated abortion, a person with that experience might see the abortion as a threat to their lives nonetheless. The fundies on my board said they classify that as convenience. Same with a woman who is debilitated by pregnancy to the point where existing children are being neglected. That's convenience apparently.

5. Pregnancy is only for nine months, with no long lasting effects.

Honestly, this is all bullshit. Even when I was pro-life I did not believe any of that crap. Also, these women had no idea how an abortion is performed. No fucking idea about the medical procedure they hate so much.

The

That list shows how bigoted, ignorant, unempathetic and unsympathetic towards others who're different from them. I can't believe people have told you this. :evil:

[Mind UR own uteress]

In general, i think a lot of people are pro-life not because they treasure the unborn children, but because they want to control others and/or feel superior to people, or get some sort of cosmic reassurance that they're going to heaven or doing God's will. So, instead of minding their own business and/or uterus, they interfere in the lives of others, completely disregarding the possible health complications of back-street abortions, or long-term consequences for the moms. It is self-serving.

Then, I think some get side-winded by these legends either to bolster their own viewpoint or because they can't think for themselves and everyone around them perhaps believes the same thing(s).

For the record, i think abortions are sad. I would not have one, watch one, or ever perform one if i were a licensed doctor. But at the same time, i would never try to impose this on other people. So, my philosophy is that if you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one.

[lilith]

I think a lot of anti abortion people are drawn to that position because it's easier to define things in black and white than to puzzle out subtle shades of grey.

Everyone believes killing is wrong. Everyone agrees children shouldn't be harmed. Instead of asking the hard questions about when a pregnancy actually starts, when a fetus becomes viable, when a fetus has a soul (if one believes in that) and when a fetus is entitled to human rights and legal protections and if those should ever supersede the rights of the mother carrying said fetus, wether it is right to bring a child into the world with severe disabilites and at what point disabilities are considered severe etc, it's much easier to just say abortion is bad and wrong. And to justify that with a few out of context bible quotes and a ramble about Jesus loving little children if you are that way inclined.

Then many people will think you are a good person, and you may feel good about yourself cause you care about these babies so much, more even than their own mothers,and you never have to ponder the complexities of the issue or put yourself in the shoes of the woman who is choosing to terminate her pregnancy.

But the problem with not looking at the nuances of situations and seeing everything as pure white or pure black is that from there it's easy to demonise the people you have decided are pure black. You have already decided they are evil, if you hear something outlandish about their behavior you are more inclined to believe it cause you already think they do terrible things and you don't like to look at complexities, they disturb and confuse you and sometimes make you question beliefs that are central to your sense of self and identity as a good person.

So people go from believing that killing babies is wrong, to abortion is wrong, to abortion is wrong for any reason, even to save the mothers life, to thinking women get $50 abortions every few months cause it's easier than using contraception, to Planned Parenthood coercing young women into having abortions they don't really want, to aborted fetuses being used in consumer products, to abortion clinic doctors sacrificing their medical waste to Satan. All the way believing that they are a good person taking the only logical position, and never once thinking of the actual reasons that contribute to a woman choosing abortion.

I hope that made sense. It did in my head, but I know it's rambly.

[Lady_M]

I highly doubt ANY fundie with their SOTDRT educayshun has any idea who Swift is or has ever read that piece!

Any fundie who did stumble across Swift's "A Modest Proposal" would probably read it literally and completely miss the satire and Swift's entire point.

I'm just waiting for one of them to stumble across it, think it's for real, and start posting it as evidence of how "ungodly" the world is...

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think a lot of anti abortion people are drawn to that position because it's easier to define things in black and white than to puzzle out subtle shades of grey.

Everyone believes killing is wrong. Everyone agrees children shouldn't be harmed. Instead of asking the hard questions about when a pregnancy actually starts, when a fetus becomes viable, when a fetus has a soul (if one believes in that) and when a fetus is entitled to human rights and legal protections and if those should ever supersede the rights of the mother carrying said fetus, wether it is right to bring a child into the world with severe disabilites and at what point disabilities are considered severe etc, it's much easier to just say abortion is bad and wrong. And to justify that with a few out of context bible quotes and a ramble about Jesus loving little children if you are that way inclined.

Then many people will think you are a good person, and you may feel good about yourself cause you care about these babies so much, more even than their own mothers,and you never have to ponder the complexities of the issue or put yourself in the shoes of the woman who is choosing to terminate her pregnancy.

But the problem with not looking at the nuances of situations and seeing everything as pure white or pure black is that from there it's easy to demonise the people you have decided are pure black. You have already decided they are evil, if you hear something outlandish about their behavior you are more inclined to believe it cause you already think they do terrible things and you don't like to look at complexities, they disturb and confuse you and sometimes make you question beliefs that are central to your sense of self and identity as a good person.

So people go from believing that killing babies is wrong, to abortion is wrong, to abortion is wrong for any reason, even to save the mothers life, to thinking women get $50 abortions every few months cause it's easier than using contraception, to Planned Parenthood coercing young women into having abortions they don't really want, to aborted fetuses being used in consumer products, to abortion clinic doctors sacrificing their medical waste to Satan. All the way believing that they are a good person taking the only logical position, and never once thinking of the actual reasons that contribute to a woman choosing abortion.

I hope that made sense. It did in my head, but I know it's rambly.

It made perfect sense.

[formergothardite]

Their real fantasies are about who has abortions and how often and why. I recently had the abortion debate of the century online and this is what they all seem to believe.

1. Women routinely get late term abortions for no reason at all.

2. Women will convince a man that they want his baby, even though they are planning to abort the eventual pregnancy. Out of pure malice, to break his heart.

3. Women get pregnant repeatedly because it is easier to abort than to take birth control.

4. And then there is this broad definition of convenience that they share. I suggested that maybe women without a defined medical reason might have a vague medical reason. Like the fact that I nearly died in labor a few times; while not a medically indicated abortion, a person with that experience might see the pregnancy as a threat to their lives nonetheless. The fundies on my board said they classify that as convenience. Same with a woman who is debilitated by pregnancy to the point where existing children are being neglected. That's convenience apparently.

5. Pregnancy is only for nine months, with no long lasting effects.

Honestly, this is all bullshit. Even when I was pro-life I did not believe any of that crap. Also, these women had no idea how an abortion is performed. No fucking idea about the medical procedure they hate so much.

The

Exactly. I've been having a conversation about abortion with someone and "those women who just have abortions because they want a girl not a boy" and "doctors force women to have abortions"and "they can just have the baby and give it up for adoption" lines kept coming up. It shows that they know very little about abortion.

[MonkeyMomma]

I just wanted to point out where the whole Pepsi myth got started: http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/pepsi.asp

Apparently there's a company partnered with Pepsi that used cells from an aborted fetus to test flavors. It was one fetus from years ago and they derived more cells from that to do their flavor research on. At no point (obviously) has there been aborted fetuses in Pepsi. But most pro-lifers I've come across have difficulty with science anyway so explaining this doesn't help.

I honestly think this is a problem with a LOT of things in US culture (why else would only 39% of USians believe in evolution, or whatever that sad statistic was?).

[B5SnowDog]

Did not make it all the way through because I'm tired, so I don't know what conclusion was reached.

That being said, if the two aborted foetuses were from 1964 and 1970, isn't it a bit weird to not use vaccines today? Isn't that sort of like a vegan not buying secondhand leather furniture? If you buy the leather furniture from the store, they profit, so will continue to kill cows to make furniture. But if it was bought 30 years ago, and you buy it secondhand, the furniture maker will not recieve any more profit from it, and since the cow is already dead anyway, at least you can stretch the use gotten from it's death. Isn't it the same here? How is not vaccinating today going to do a thing to stop the abortions performed 40-50 years ago? Or am I missing something?

And I say all this and I'm pro-life and anti-vaccinating. :lol:

The conclusion was that while it was wrong to use cell lines from aborted fetuses to develop the vaccines, it's more important to protect children and pregnant women from illnesses like rubella. "In any case, there remains a moral duty to continue to fight and to employ every lawful means in order to make life difficult for the pharmaceutical industries which act unscrupulously and unethically. However, the burden of this important battle cannot and must not fall on innocent children and on the health situation of the population - especially with regard to pregnant women."

[kayray]

I have truly seen some bizarre things said by the anti-choice fundies.

And yes, apparently everyone is getting late-term abortions in perfectly healthy pregnancies, and using abortion as their only form of birth control. These ebil women purposely WAIT until the third trimester to abort because they are so cruel and sadistic.

Women should have the babies as they only have to carry it for nine months. There is never any acknowledgment of the genuine risks and side effects of pregnancy, from morning sickness, hemmorhoids, tears and prolapses, to actual hemmorhages, paralysis, and death. It is just like a fantasy pregnancy - it is ALWAYS beautiful and lovely and such a blessing. Of course all the "babies" are healthy (and definitely not anything ebil like gay, a liberal, or a feminist!) and should be given a chance. They glorify those women who carry their babies without brains or with other severe crippling illnesses or disorders that will either have them die at or shortly after birth or live in severe pain, and of course, at whose expense? There is no consideration given to the women who might die from or due to her pregnancy, and instead the women who foregoes cancer treatment to carry a child is celebrated. Even if that child may now be left motherless.

If other women want to carry their pregnancies to term in those situation that is DEFINITELY their choice, but I hate that the anti-choicers build up a fantasy around those situations and use it as a weapon of guilt or even hate against other women who may choose differently. None of them bother to actually research how many late-term abortions there are, how many are done in emergency situations, I am not even sure if they bother distinguishing between a missed abortion/abortion of a miscarriage and an elective abortion if it promotes their stats. They seem to have NO clue what actually happens in an abortion, and I laugh at how they call an abortion a "convenience" and then turn around and talk about how it ruins women's lives forever and they will never recover. Get your story straight. I will still disagree, but at least you will be consistent.

[aelar]

I would voluntarily get pregnant, have an abortion, and donate that fetus to science if it were needed to make more vaccine lines to preserve the life and health of others. (To make new flavors of soda, not so much, but I don't see anything wrong with making use of something that has been donated to science, even if that something was once a potential person.)

I adore my actually born, much wanted and suffered for daughter, but it is highly unlikely that she will save hundreds of thousands of lives (she might turn out to have the cure for cancer in her curly-headed brain, but it's more likely that she'll be a video game engineer, or a history teacher, or something cool, worthwhile, but not heroic). She is the only born child I have any interest in having, because I'm one of those evil feminist women that wants to have a life, do some work, enjoy vacations and a comfortable home, and give my one precious child all the time, energy, attention, and financial resources she will need to succeed and prosper, and hopefully enjoy the life that we gave her.

Given this, I have approximately eleventy-bazzillion other potential-but-will-never-be-realized children hanging out in my ovaries. I would happily donate a few to worthwhile causes. This to me is an utterly moral choice, although not one I will probably ever have the opportunity to make.

I can sort of see the pro-life freak-out over ordinary abortion. Yes, potential babies are getting killed, for a variety of reasons that mostly have to do with the what the women involve want for their lives. (And isn't that scary.) But the aborted fetuses in vaccines!!!! thing makes no sense. Surely the concept of martyrdom has meaning to Christians? Embrace vaccination, and honor those gone, but still miraculously (through science) life-preserving fetuses!