Making a covenant with "daddy". A lesson in what happens

[Visionoyahweh]

So does daddy have to vow never to complain, to always be cheerful, to immediately take care of the daughters needs, etc.? No?

*kicks in the nuts*

[contrary]

I never got this argument. So, by dating around, and loving different people before you find "the one," this diminishes your heart? Loving limits your heart, breaks it down to smaller than it was before? But having 19 kids, no way Jose, that actually makes your heart bigger? Or somesuch.

Damn good point, that.

Only room for ONE MAN, but plenty o'space for 20 children!

[purpleeee]

Everything taken to extreme. Fundies donèt have any problem making their little children commit to a religion (the whole ÈsavedÈ concept) and then they add these other ceremonies. And yes, the gendering of it is as horrible as the rest of their gendering of their culture.

[donks]

Squicky. Oh so squicky. Along with the fact that Daddy and Pastor warrant capitol letters. The Pastor's wife didn't... Wonder why? Ooooh yeah. That pesky vagina makes the difference.

Squicked again...

[linnea27]

Ugh. So nasty. The whole thing is disgusting, plus, as my husband and I are both thrice married, her explanation of her fragmented heart irritates me too. But did any of you see this from their comment section?

Bolding mine. Really? Do these people honestly make plans with the disclaimer that they may not make it due to possibly being raptured at some time in the not-too-distant future?

Yes. When my husband and I were getting married, my husband asked his (fundie to fundie-lite) sister if she would come to the wedding. She responded with "maybe. You're planning your wedding so far in advance. Who can say what will happen in the next year and a half? If the 'current system' is still in place then, we'd love to come. Otherwise...."

His whole family also has zero retirement savings because surely the rapture will come before they can retire.

[contrary]

I think we'd be surprised how many fundy/fundy-lites honestly believe it's End Times.

[kaetrin]

Ewwww! These cult like fundie rituals of females promising their fathers' that they'll 'keep pure' and obtain their blessing before courtship or marriage always disgust me on a very deep level. There is something seriously, seriously wrong with families who do this to their daughters (why not the sons???). My father, who is slightly socially awkward tbh, would have died of embarrassment if someone suggested we take part in a 'purity covenant'. Honestly it never would have occurred to my father that he had the right to dictate what I did with my body.

My husband's fundie family has only boys, and they were made to sign purity covenants of some sort. No romantic relationship without parental approval/management, etc. And if they kept the covenant the parents would buy them a car.

My husband refused to sign it so no free car for him, but he did end up with me so I guess it's a fair trade. :-)

ETA: I don't think this is very common, though, or at least it's not publicized the way it is with the girls. My family is all girls so gender disparity was a moot point.

[lilwriter85]

The daddy covenant is just squicky like purity balls. I don't think fundie or fundie lites realize how squicky it is.

[Anxious Girl]

I hate the concept of purity balls. If you replace virginity with daughter; then it's sick. I feel like they do replace daughter with virginity to make it seem harmless. Because if the young girls pledged to allow their fathers to own them before selling off a man of their choosing; people would be outraged. But since the cover-up word is virginity; it's no big deal. I hate it when fundies use cover-up words. It's like they know what they're doing is dehumanizing women; but they make themselves feel better by using a different word.

That's my take on it. :evil:

[Conuly]

Poking around her blog a bit, I found this gem: http://treasuresfromashoebox.blogspot.com/2011/10/keys-to-obedience-tutorial.html One of the four "keys to obedience"? No complaining. Yes, because we would never want a child to express her like or dislike of something. Never. Or to complain if someone is hurting her. Can't have any of that.

It's "immediately" that gets me. If you follow the link provided to bettermom (sin of pride much?) you're told sanctimoniously that "obeying immediately may save your child's life!" with ye old "kid running into traffic" parable. (Have none of these people ever heard of fences?) Well, obeying immediately may harm your child too if, say, you tell your kid to get into the bath RIGHT NOW and what you don't know is that the water is scalding and they're running some cold water in to cool it down, or if you tell them to... I don't know, make up your own potential disasters.

Obedience: It's not as good as critical thinking.

[TrueRebel1]

Families like these who implement courtship/purity covenants and rings really make me upset. Of course, back when I was a young teen, I was reading magazines like "Patriarch" (published by Phil Lancaster). Anyone here remember it? Back then, I wished that my parents were more hard-core fundies and would "love" me enough to commit to a courtship covenant. Ack! I am so far from that point of view now! Seeing the havoc that courtship has caused to my own siblings and friends has really saddened and angered me. Not to mention just how creepy it is to have your dad/parents tell you who you may get to know and who you can marry.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Poking around her blog a bit, I found this gem: http://treasuresfromashoebox.blogspot.com/2011/10/keys-to-obedience-tutorial.html One of the four "keys to obedience"? No complaining. Yes, because we would never want a child to express her like or dislike of something. Never. Or to complain if someone is hurting her. Can't have any of that.

What I don't get is... how can any kid be forced to make a keyring like that and NOT just instantly go all rebellious and think "okay, whatever, that's it, I'm counting the days until I turn 18 and I'm OUTA here"?

Perhaps I'm just innately sinful or something? Because any of these "Dad is going to sit here and watch me write down how I have to be obedient" things just make me furious. How is that NOT cloyingly patronizing and rage inducing?

Maybe it's just me...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The daddy covenant is just squicky like purity balls. I don't think fundie or fundie lites realize how squicky it is.

Sitting here at my desk with various cube toys on it, including some "stress balls" I got at a conference, I'm imagining a set of squeezy stress balls like that but instead of a company name they just say "PURITY" on 'em. Better yet, make them look vaguely testicular.

Time to go home... :)

[thoughtful]

Hey, if Daddy has to approve of the future husband (and, for some of these people, find him without any input from the daughter), he can guarantee that she marries the right kind of man.

In their world, the right kind of man is someone who will continue a daughter's indoctrination into being a womb with few marketable skills, and whatever flavor of Fundie Dad's family is.

If a man came along who really appreciated her as a person, saw her worth, strength and potential, wanted to help her continue her education and perhaps a career, Daddy would probably be horrified.

Probably a moot point for the more sheltered Fundies, since no non-Daddy-approved man could ever get enough time with a woman to form that opinion.

[LucySnowe]

Well, at least Haley Rose is allowed to reveal her elbows, read voraciously (and the fact that she's devouring the work of Joel Rosenberg indicates that her parents are letting her read unrestrictedly - I do hope she makes it to Bradbury and Clarke), enjoy and play classical music and take lessons in same, sell baked goods to her father's work colleagues and have her parents refer to it as a 'small baking business' (as opposed to dismissing it as something she does in her spare time - she also refers to it this way), read and write adventure novels, and act in skits.

In her own blog, her goals include 'growing in the Lord' but also finishing and publishing her novel, and succeeding in a piano competition that would bring her to Carnegie Hall. Her heroes are Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Eric Liddell. She competed in piano at the state level recently.

I'm disgusted with the purity obsession, but overall, this young woman seems to have a lot of intelligence and ambition, and her parents seem to be encouraging that. She's miles ahead of Miss Raquel.

Except for that 30-day juice fast. What the hell? For a teenager? Really? Can someone explain this to me before I run out of question marks?

http://stopandsmelltheroseshere.blogspot.co.uk/

[Jezebel]

It's "immediately" that gets me. If you follow the link provided to bettermom (sin of pride much?) you're told sanctimoniously that "obeying immediately may save your child's life!" with ye old "kid running into traffic" parable. (Have none of these people ever heard of fences?) Well, obeying immediately may harm your child too if, say, you tell your kid to get into the bath RIGHT NOW and what you don't know is that the water is scalding and they're running some cold water in to cool it down, or if you tell them to... I don't know, make up your own potential disasters.

Obedience: It's not as good as critical thinking.

What disturbs me is that that same immediate, unquestioning obedience could end up transferred onto anyone the kids--even as adults--might perceive as an authority figure. A pastor. A teacher. A sports coach. A workshop leader. A camp counselor. Other kids' "godly" parents. An employer. A Christian blogger. A right-wing TV pundit. Fox News. The leader of another flavor of controlling cult. A charismatic political leader who seems to have the "right values." An abusive spouse. A con-man.

The goal is to program their kids to obey authority immediately, cheerfully, and without question, without thinking about whether what they are being told to do is even right, rational, or worthwhile. But what happens when they grow up, encounter other adults who they perceive to be authorities (whether they consciously realize it or not), and those authorities push their "obey" buttons? And "obey" always means "obey immediately, completely, and without question or complaint"? If the parents actually succeed in raising unquestioningly obedient children, they are raising people who, as adults, will be incredibly easy to manipulate. All someone would have to do is get those kids to accept them, at some level--be it overt or covert--as an authority.

When a habit becomes so deeply ingrained as to be automatic, and the individual acts or makes decisions without thinking--or even realizing that they are acting or making a decision at all--it's really hard to stop doing that. It takes a lot of effort and conscious work to establish a new habit and rid yourself of an old one. And if the habit stems from early childhood, and you were rewarded for it, and it's always been used--even now--as proof of how "good" and "godly" you are? Yeah. Just try overcoming that one.

I've had crappy, self-defeating patterns of thinking left over from childhood that didn't get reinforced with anywhere near the stringency of "instant obedience," but man, getting rid of them was tough. Some of them I'm not sure I'll ever mange to banish completely, but I keep trying. Sometimes one will pop free with minimal effort--but only if I have one of those major, life-changing lightning-strikes of illumination. And these days, I don't even have anyone reinforcing those crappy ideas for me anymore--I don't need to keep acting them out to gain approval, acceptance, and love, or to maintain harmonious family relationships.

So when I see kids being raised like this, where the initial idea implantation and behavioral training is carried out in a consistent, focused manner, is carried on throughout childhood, and will continue to mark the parent-adult child relationships? That anyone might escape that kind of "training," and develop a fully-independent, questioning, unruly mind of their own would be truly remarkable. Some stubborn or very bright kids might manage it. Maybe someone who ended up abused or exploited due to their unquestioning obedience might, if they could allow themselves to feel angry enough (seeing as anger is a forbidden emotion, especially for women). But otherwise? Those kids are going to be sitting ducks for anyone with sufficient charisma, knowledge, or social/political power. And that's not just tragic for them, but scary for the rest of us.

[luckystone]

I never got this argument. So, by dating around, and loving different people before you find "the one," this diminishes your heart? Loving limits your heart, breaks it down to smaller than it was before? But having 19 kids, no way Jose, that actually makes your heart bigger? Or somesuch.

They have chosen a different path for their children? How is this their choice?

[Koala]

One of the greatest quotes I've read in a while :clap:

[Hane]

That... would be AWESOME. :D

I would pay good money to see that happen. I'd even fund it myself.

[Esther]

Yes. When my husband and I were getting married, my husband asked his (fundie to fundie-lite) sister if she would come to the wedding. She responded with "maybe. You're planning your wedding so far in advance. Who can say what will happen in the next year and a half? If the 'current system' is still in place then, we'd love to come. Otherwise...."

His whole family also has zero retirement savings because surely the rapture will come before they can retire.

That's hilarious. I can't believe there's that many people out there who genuinely think the Rapture is going to happen at all, let alone that it's going to happen anytime soon. Dear God. :shock:

[dawbs]

That's hilarious. I can't believe there's that many people out there who genuinely think the Rapture is going to happen at all, let alone that it's going to happen anytime soon. Dear God. :shock:

There was a disturbing survey on this recently...http://gawker.com/5906856/22-percent-of ... r-lifetime

22% of Americans think the world will end in their lifetime.

I'm guessing a huge percentage of those people believe this end of the world is tied to chrisitanity.

[heinz57]

There was a disturbing survey on this recently...http://gawker.com/5906856/22-percent-of ... r-lifetime

22% of Americans think the world will end in their lifetime.

I'm guessing a huge percentage of those people believe this end of the world is tied to chrisitanity.

Speaking of the Rapture, I recommend "Waiting for Armageddon", a really disturbing documentary about precisely those people who believe it's imminent (oh, and how it influenced American foreign policy during the Bush era)

tNcPX9KbwSY

Edited to add a special mention to the infamous "Alaska mosque" :shock: in Jerusalem they keep referring to...

[purpleeee]

There was a disturbing survey on this recently...http://gawker.com/5906856/22-percent-of ... r-lifetime

22% of Americans think the world will end in their lifetime.

I'm guessing a huge percentage of those people believe this end of the world is tied to chrisitanity.

It's a while since I read it, but it was a magazine article about one of Elissa Wall's sisters, who also (pre-Elissa) escaped from the FLDS. She (the sister) mentioned believing the world would end in a couple of years as one reason why she gave in to her arranged marriage - she said something like "I knew it wouldn't last long".

Never occured to me before to make this connection, but perhaps this attitude ties in more generally to people not questioning some of the strange and unfair things their cults expect them to do.

[FaeT]

Speaking of the Rapture, I recommend "Waiting for Armageddon", a really disturbing documentary about precisely those people who believe it's imminent (oh, and how it influenced American foreign policy during the Bush era)

tNcPX9KbwSY

Edited to add a special mention to the infamous "Alaska mosque" :shock: in Jerusalem they keep referring to...

That is really disturbing .. Comparing the bombing and a country that did nothing but happen to exist over oil that the big bully that is the US wants to a woman having contractions prior to giving birth?? What the fuck .. I hope thats on netflix

[heinz57]

Speaking of the Rapture, I recommend "Waiting for Armageddon", a really disturbing documentary about precisely those people who believe it's imminent (oh, and how it influenced American foreign policy during the Bush era)

tNcPX9KbwSY

Edited to add a special mention to the infamous "Alaska mosque" :shock: in Jerusalem they keep referring to...

That is really disturbing .. Comparing the bombing and a country that did nothing but happen to exist over oil that the big bully that is the US wants to a woman having contractions prior to giving birth?? What the fuck .. I hope thats on netflix