working = certain death and destruction.

[batwing]

http://strengthandhonorareherclothingDO ... cares.html

Hey guys, just a heads-up, don't ever let your children out of your sight or they'll die, get fat, and you'll get divorced. Oh, and quit making up excuses for working. And it's not just working outside the home, she featured a news story about a woman that works part time inside the home and enrolled her children in a childcare center.

Usually I find this blogger to be less annoying than others, but maybe it's just that she doesn't post as often?

Make sure you scroll down through the comments. Jessi has enlightened us all, I had no idea that the schools are now in the practice of busing children to Planned Parenthood to get abortions :roll: It's unfortunate that Jessi doesn't have a blog on her profile, I bet that would be an interesting read.

edited to add my head asploding.

[GenerationCedarchip]

And if you scroll down her page, you can see that she promotes the Pearls' ministry. Yikes!

:-o

[BlackHawk]

LMAO.. the stupidity.. is just what i needed today! Seriously? People honestly think like this still today? Show me a school that bused a teenager out to have an abortion, then bused them back to school to finish the day and the parents never knew... please.

I work in EC schools, I've worked in daycare for many years, and seriously? SERIOUSLY? I think the children spent MORE time outside at daycare then at home. Most kids, which asked, said they watched TV last night... very rarely did someone tell me they went for a bike ride with mommy or something.

To address a point in Karen's original post... what about the parents who leave their kids in the car to die? Statistically that happens MORE than a daycare leaving a child unattended that dies. I know here where I live we have at least 5-10 kids who die a year because their parents leave them in cars. If I'm not mistaken we have already had at least 2 or 3 and it's only July. One was a man who went into Deja Vu (Strip club) and left his 11 month old (Possibly slightly older) son in the car who died while he watched strippers. Shit happens. It's crappy shit, but one daycare out of thousands leaving a kid in the car who dies is no more messed up for your kids than one parent out of thousands who do that. By her logic all parents should be stripped of their rights because parents leave kids in the car too.

I want to see her study numbers, and the comparative studies that all states do on the childcare centers.

[Guest Anonymous]

Black Hawk, if only you would read the Thinking Housewife more often, you would know that it is working mothers who are responsible for babies dying from being left in the back of the car. Thinking Housewife writes about this phenomenon a lot. If mothers would just stay home with their kids and refuse to engage in other obligations, like jobs, they wouldn't be so harried that they forget their own kids. In fact, having a job weakens the maternal bond so that working mothers forget to take their kids out of the car because they just aren't bonded enough.

Not only that, according to one Housewife commenter, when a working father leaves his baby in the car, it is still the mother's fault because she should have been with the baby in the first place: http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/201 ... ead-child/

[Sunnichick31]

http://strengthandhonorareherclothingDOTblogspotDOTcom/2011/07/dangerous-day-cares.html

Make sure you scroll down through the comments. Jessi has enlightened us all, I had no idea that the schools are now in the practice of busing children to Planned Parenthood to get abortions :roll: It's unfortunate that Jessi doesn't have a blog on her profile, I bet that would be an interesting read.

edited to add my head asploding.

That reminds me of how a couple years ago, an abortion clinic opened up where I live and everyone was freaking out about how it was only 3 blocks away from the high school. Considering the fact that my town is super small, the only way they could get it more than 3 blocks away from any school or daycare would be to put it a mile out of town! So silly.

[BlondeAgent007]

she does have a point about kids and parents not having enough bonding time, though. My friend worked in the same daycare(not the same as in the article, just stayed at the same location a long time!) for roughly five years and she saw many kids being dropped off at 7:30am and picked up at 6 pm that would cling to her and sob when the parents came to get them. I think, though, that it shows that daycare teachers DO care about these kids. The wide majority would never, ever intentionally leave a child to die in a car.

If parents are going to work that long, then after they come home they HAVE to get over the fact that they are tired and actually interact with their kids on evenings and weekends. At her daycare they had limited tv time, maybe two movies a week. That's ~4 hrs/week, which I have a feeling is much lower than the national average for preschool aged kids.

EDIT to clarify that it was not the same daycare mentioned. I reread it and thought it might be misleading.

[Caxpax]

Actually, the whole "clinging to the daycare lady and sobbing" has probably less to do with the daycare lady being preferred over mommy and daddy, and more to do with how little kids process/handle complex emotions. I've been reading a bit about the transition from home to daycare for little kids, and this kind of reaction (well behaved kid all day, tantrums/hysteria once mom and dad arrives) is more about who the kid feels safe letting the big emotions out around......mommy and daddy. Kids understand that the daycare lady is paid to be there, while Mom and Dad want to be around them. Ergo, if you are going to act like a little shit do it around the person who isn't being paid minimum wage to hang with you, do it around the people who would kill for you.

[BlondeAgent007]

That may be true, but I don't think that's the case with my friend. She used to babysit for a bunch of the kids she worked with as well. She left the area over a year ago, and when she comes home to visit her family, she still makes time to go visit them and see how they are doing. I used to help her put together bulletin boards and set up crafts with her on nights that I didn't have school work, most of which she had to pay for out of her minimum wage salary. She's working on getting her BS in elementary education currently because daycare simply doesn't pay enough. She really loved those kids though :)

EDIT: I'm not trying to hijack the thread, I just agreed with her one statement there. I don't know of any school that buses kids to PP either.

[doggie]

like there is a guarantee children get enough attention in these quiverful families. the duggers are a good example of how they don't get enough.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a theory that kids respond to the stress and guilt their parents feel about putting them in daycare. Among the parents I've known, the kids whose parents feel terrible about putting them in daycare are the ones who respond poorly to it. Children of parents who are all, "Of COURSE my kids are going to day care," seem to do fine.

This reminds me of my own childhood when my father worked for an organization that had our family moving to around four different contininents every 2-3 years. I always thought I was incredibly lucky and privileged because that's how my parents treated it. Then there were the parents who were wringing their hands about how awful it was to uproot their children so often. Their kids had all sorts of problems with it. Yes, of course, kids have their own feelings about things that are separate and distinct from what their parents want, but often I think they are responding to their parents' emotional cues.

I also recall that as a child with a stay-at-home mother until I was 10, I didn't necessarily spend all that much time with her. She was busy taking care of the house! By the time I was four, I was begging to go to pre-school. I LOVED the idea of being in a structured environment with other kids. And when my parents let me go, with some reluctance, I totally loved. Of course, in my case it was only for half-a-day and I'd been home with my mother the entire four years of my life before that, but I still am skeptical of this idea that kids have to spend the majority of their waking hours with Mom. In fact, I believe there are studies that show that mothers today actually spend MORE time interacting with their kids than mothers of the homemaker era, even if they are no longer in physical proximity to their kids for quite as long.

[lilah]

A lot of the families in my neighborhood send their kids to daycare because the alternative would probably be them neglecting their kids and parking the kids in front of the tv for hours on end.

[Guest Anonymous]

LMAO.. the stupidity.. is just what i needed today! Seriously? People honestly think like this still today? Show me a school that bused a teenager out to have an abortion, then bused them back to school to finish the day and the parents never knew... please.

Well, there's this http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html

Not sure if it "counts".

[Guest Anonymous]

I am the oldest of 7 children (we now range in age from 19 to 30). Though both of our parents worked, we were fortunate enough to have a babysitter who lived a few houses down come and stay at our house with us all day. She was like family, and we adored her. I distinctly remember liking her MUCH more than my mother.

One day when my mom came home from work, the (then) youngest child had just started talking well and called the sitter "mama" instead of my mom. She called my mom nothing. I was 5 1/2 then and made the HUGE mistake of saying, "of course she calls HER mama. she sees her more than she sees YOU!" Oh boy...I still remember that spanking.

I know, I KNOW that some women absolutely have to work. But children really do bond with those they see the most during their waking hours. Unless of course my siblings and I are an anomoly. That's always a possibility!

[MamaJunebug]

Back to the OP's point:

Folks, birth = certain death.

That's all. Thanks for your attention.

[Austin]

Well, there's this http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html

Not sure if it "counts".

Actually, I'm not sure it does. The clinic was not operated by the district, and the teen did not, under the law, need her mother's permission in that state. I don't read anywhere that she was coerced or forced to have an abortion.

Many "pro-life advocates" have abortions, so that doesn't mean a hill of beans. I could name several off the top of my head who are evangelical Christians who are generally pro-life but had abortions in their specific situations for their own reasons, most having to do with unapproachable, highly authoritarian parents or family members.

So yeah, not that outraged, really. Maybe the mother, instead of being "furious", should be asking herself why her daughter felt she could not come to her with her problems.

[Katiebug]

From this lovely woman's list of "excuses" for mothers working outside the home (which naturally are never valid reasons, just excuses for not being home barefoot and pregnant and subservient to one's help meet):

"I can't afford not to work" (this is mostly the biggest lie because by the time you pay day care, get taxed extra, gas, clothes, lunches, dinners out because you are too tired or busy..it just isn't worth it financially- never mind the other reasons),

I read this argument often online. It's often an argument made by women without significant education or work experience past high school, whose last job was in retail or (ironically) childcare. If your gross income is $20K/year and daycare is going to cost $12K/year then I agree that working probably doesn't make much sense. If your income is $60K, $80K, $100K or more then it's a different proposition entirely. If you spent 4 years in college and then more time in graduate or professional school, you're going to think long and hard before quitting - in some fields once you leave for a few years it's next to impossible to get back in later (mine happens to be one of these). Quite frankly some of these women just can't comprehend a world in which a woman can have a personally- and financially-rewarding career where it does indeed make financial sense to continue working outside the home after having a baby. These people also neglect the opportunity cost of leaving the workforce either temporarily or permanently, but that won't matter as much to a fundie whose main goal in life is to marry and pop out little arrows for the quiver.

Trust me when I say that even after paying the daycare bill, extra taxes, gas, clothes, etc. it's absolutely worth it financially for me to work. We have one child right now and while quality childcare for an infant doesn't come cheap I earn a whole lot more. ;)

And clearly daycare is a horrible, un-fun place where kids are warehoused and ignored. You know, the place where today the kids in our daughter's pre-toddler room colored pictures of a star (the shape of the week), sang songs, played with stacking blocks and baby dolls, and got to crawl or toddle around on the playground on a beautiful summer day. When I picked her up she was laughing and happy, and on the way out we stopped in the nursery so she could give a good bye kiss to one of her former caregivers. Such a horrid situation for an 11 month old, no? :lol:

[Rosa]

DoomedHarlot, i really think it's more about the individual kids than anything else. My mom was a stay at home mom, but when I was little and they left me with a sitter I was super happy, pushed them out of the house, etc - my brother never willingly left her side and had to be peeled off her leg every morning of his first year of school.

I was super worried about going back to work and leaving my kid at daycare, and he went from the very first day without a backward glance, then come home at the end of the day and want to nurse for, like, an hour for the first several months. You wouldn't have known from any of his other behavior that he missed me at all.

[Rosa]

Also, about "Jill" - is she concerned about her DAUGHTER at all? The only quote from her is here:

But Jill says she not only didn't have a say in her daughter's abortion, but also didn't know about it.

"Makes me feel like my rights were completely stripped away."

No wonder the kid didn't want to tell her.

[liltwinstar]

Thanks for that, Katiebug. I find it so demeaning when the anti-feminist apologists say that women aren't worth much in the job market anyway, so they may as well stay home. I don't want to snark on poor women, or women who work at wal-mart or similar; in fact, I wish that we had better childcare options in this country so that women/families in those situations would have more options. But, like you, I make enough that it would still be "worth it" to work.

Also, a lot of women work in pink-collar jobs that, while not particularly lucrative, could provide health insurance and other benefits that might be essential to a families' well-being, even if the take-home salary is lower than they would wish.

Anway, also, I don't have kids right now, so I'm able to do things that help stretch our income anyway - I cook 99% of our meals, my husband and I both brown-bag our lunches, we shop sales, I buy my "corporate wardrobe" at goodwill, etc. I'm sure if I had kids my priorities/spending would change, but my point is that working and frugality (whatever that means to a particular family) are not always mutually exclusive.

[Austin]

From this lovely woman's list of "excuses" for mothers working outside the home (which naturally are never valid reasons, just excuses for not being home barefoot and pregnant and subservient to one's help meet):

I read this argument often online. It's often an argument made by women without significant education or work experience past high school, whose last job was in retail or (ironically) childcare. If your gross income is $20K/year and daycare is going to cost $12K/year then I agree that working probably doesn't make much sense. If your income is $60K, $80K, $100K or more then it's a different proposition entirely. If you spent 4 years in college and then more time in graduate or professional school, you're going to think long and hard before quitting - in some fields once you leave for a few years it's next to impossible to get back in later (mine happens to be one of these). Quite frankly some of these women just can't comprehend a world in which a woman can have a personally- and financially-rewarding career where it does indeed make financial sense to continue working outside the home after having a baby. These people also neglect the opportunity cost of leaving the workforce either temporarily or permanently, but that won't matter as much to a fundie whose main goal in life is to marry and pop out little arrows for the quiver.

Trust me when I say that even after paying the daycare bill, extra taxes, gas, clothes, etc. it's absolutely worth it financially for me to work. We have one child right now and while quality childcare for an infant doesn't come cheap I earn a whole lot more. ;)

Excellent points. I think the "working costs too much" argument is a rather weak one, particularly for professional women who have decent earning power. Although I did make the choice to be home with my children when they were little, I have been back in the workforce for 11 years, and I think it all depends on your situation, as you've pointed out. A good salary helps, plus I work close to home so I don't have a lot of car/gasoline expense. We wear casual clothes to work (no special wardrobe or dry cleaning expenses) and we have a full kitchen at our office, so almost everyone brings food from home to fix or heat up for lunch. I can go for weeks without spending any cash on incidentals related to work.

So even realizing that my situation is pretty ideal, my point is that working doesn't always cost as much as some people think, and many working women save money by packing their lunches, using public transportation to avoid high parking fees, and purchasing sensible work clothes that don't need a lot of special care. Good child care is costly, but that is something that shouldn't be scrimped on to whatever extent that is possible. Many of my friends' children have gone to the Goddard Schools for daycare and from what I can tell, their kids love it and they have fun and learn a lot. My kids would have probably loved it, although I am glad I had the opportunity to be at home with them.

[emmiedahl]

Jessi has enlightened us all, I had no idea that the schools are now in the practice of busing children to Planned Parenthood to get abortions :roll:

My high school did this in the nineties. They would give you a bus pass and excuse the absence if you needed to go to PP for any reasons. Is this not normal? It was in Northern California where the eebil liburals live. I had many a free afternoon thanks to the PP excuse. I'm sure they wondered what was wrong with me to need to go, like, every week.

[Rosa]

That wouldn't have flown at my high school - you had to have a parent note to leave, and the doors were guarded.