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for those who insist on liking Dan Savage


deelaem

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I am missing something... because what he says makes some sense to me. If we didn't criminalize sex work and shame folks (men and women) from using a clean professional sex worker to fulfill their needs, then it might curb some of the sexual violence we see.

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I am missing something... because what he says makes some sense to me. If we didn't criminalize sex work and shame folks (men and women) from using a clean professional sex worker to fulfill their needs, then it might curb some of the sexual violence we see.

Right there is the problem. First of all, the amount of women who need a "clean, professional sex worker" is negligible. So that means the workers will be women, and women certainly don't need men to use them as fuck toilets.

Sexual violence has very little to do with men being horny. It has to do with power, control, and hatred.

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Sexual violence has very little to do with men being horny. It has to do with power, control, and hatred.

This.

I don't think sex work should be criminalized though. I'm pretty much all about harm reduction. Whatever works to reduce human traficking/violence against sex workers.

I think it is Sweden that has criminalized solicitation of sex, but not prostitution. I have heard mixed things about how effective it is at reducing trafficking.

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I think that article is a little off, but mostly in it's analysis of Sodini. They guy was a rage filled sociopath and was going to go off at some point no matter what happened. Utilizing the services of sex-workers was not going to fix whatever problems he had.

On the other hand, I can see no reason to criminalize prostitution and I never have. Legalizing it means regulating it, which can only be good for sex workers. And I think it's simply untrue that the amount of women who would visit sex workers, if it were legal and safe, is negligible.

Sexual violence between men and sex workers wouldn't be lessened by the greater availability of sex workers, but it could certainly be lessened by regulating the sex industry.

Also, just an edit to add that just because Dan Savage isn't the best columnist out there on women's issues, doesn't negate his willingness to stand up on other issues and his value in those arenas. And he's been immensely helpful in publicizing politicians who want to make birth control illegal.

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One of the fastest growing segments of the sex trafficking problem is young boys. While runaways are definitely an issue, there is a significant problem in bringing children over to be "owned". Legalizing prostitution wont stop people that want kids, but it will ensure that those who are in the "business" are clean in the same sense that the sex movie industry is clean.

It works well in Nevada.

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Right there is the problem. First of all, the amount of women who need a "clean, professional sex worker" is negligible. So that means the workers will be women, and women certainly don't need men to use them as fuck toilets.

Sexual violence has very little to do with men being horny. It has to do with power, control, and hatred.

However, there are women who do make a living (and enjoy that living) as professional doms and subs. There are professional outlets to allow people to act out their sexual aggression in a safe, supervised enviorment. I am not saying it would cure all predators, but I certainly think that that kind of shift in attitude would make a difference in getting people treated.

Hell, the way things are structured now, if someone goes to try to get help for desires to commit sexual violence, they can be reported to the police. Same goes for those who try to get help for pedophillic compullsions. There have been some stories of men buying real dolls to act out their compulsions on - hell, go read the real doll doctor site for some horror stories. Point is if there are safe places for some people to live out these fantasies, it could help.

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I've heard at least one strong feminist make the argument that women should be perfectly free to choose sex work as a profession. That so long as their health and safety is guaranteed, and their choice destigmatized, it would be no different from working in any other service industry.

I don't agree with Savage in saying that visiting prostitutes would have kept a nutjob from going on a shooting spree, but I'm not seeing raging misogyny and love of rape culture either. IDK. Maybe I missed something too.

*probably cross-posted with other comments*

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I'm finding a hard time understanding what Savage said Was necessarily misogynistic. I think perhaps ones view or sex workers likely makes a difference on how you receive his words.

I know people who worked or who have worked in the sex industry in one way or another. The people I know (and I do understand this is the exception and not the rule) do enjoy their work and do have a pretty normal life outside of their line of work. They do not see themselves as being victims, and enjoy a high standard of living. What I'm saying is that sex work doesn't have to be degrading, but unfortunately for most workers it is due to its status in our culture. I thought he made it pretty clear in regards to Sodini that someone as troubled as he was wasn't necessarily someone who should seek out sex worker, but that is just me :D

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Some women choose to be sex workers, and have the right to do so. You are the one characterising them as "fuck toilets", deelaem, which is a horrible slur, and reflects more on you than on them.

Having said that, Dan Savage is a terrible excuse for a human. He is routinely misogynist (if not in this instance), transphobic, racist, ableist, he hates fat people...Name a prejudice, he pretty much has it.

I like "It Gets Better" as a concept, but it exists because his sexuality is the one area of life where Dan Savage doesn't have privilege, and he finds that just outrageous!! Never mind all the people he uses his privilege to ignore/attack/hurt all the time...

ETA: I should mention I haven't read the link, because I don't read anything Dan Savage writes anymore, so I don't know if he is being misogynistic in it. Probably, though.

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I've heard at least one strong feminist make the argument that women should be perfectly free to choose sex work as a profession. That so long as their health and safety is guaranteed, and their choice destigmatized, it would be no different from working in any other service industry.

I agree with this.

That being said, I've had extensive contact with guys like Sodini (some of whom have called him a hero) and, believe me, hiring prostitutes has been suggested to every single one of those guys, multiple times. And even the many who've hired prostitutes are no less misogynistic and hate-filled for it. So while I agree that prostitution should be legalized, Savage is way off base to think that going to hookers would change these men.

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Right there is the problem. First of all, the amount of women who need a "clean, professional sex worker" is negligible. So that means the workers will be women, and women certainly don't need men to use them as fuck toilets.

Count me in thinking that sex work should be decriminalized and should be regulated to reduce harm, trafficking, violence and the like. I don't hate women, nor do I support rape culture. I think legalizing prostitution could help to reduce rape culture. I think calling a woman a fuck toliet is pretty nasty thing to say. And you're completely ignoring the fact that male prostitution does exist too.

I don't think that a person with major mental health issues like Sordini could have been "cured" of his problems just by employing sex workers but then maybe it would have helped reduced the intensity of is his problems. If you spend any time in the Pick up artist/Male Rights groups you can find guys similar to Sordini, who hate/resent women because they have unrealistic fantasies and expectations about women.

aving said that, Dan Savage is a terrible excuse for a human. He is routinely misogynist (if not in this instance), transphobic, racist, ableist, he hates fat people...Name a prejudice, he pretty much has it.

I like "It Gets Better" as a concept, but it exists because his sexuality is the one area of life where Dan Savage doesn't have privilege, and he finds that just outrageous!! Never mind all the people he uses his privilege to ignore/attack/hurt all the time...

ETA: I should mention I haven't read the link, because I don't read anything Dan Savage writes anymore, so I don't know if he is being misogynistic in it. Probably, though.

I read Savage's column on a semi-regular basis, and listen to his podcast every week during my commute and I don't really a hear a lot of misogyny, transphobia, rascism or abelism. I don't always agree with everything he says but I credit him that he's willing to usually acknowledge if he's said something wrong.

As for the fat-hatred thing I have heard his line about how people in long term monogamous relationships should be obligated to stay fit to make their partner happy and i kind of rolled my eyes on that one. On the other hand last week a guy with a preference for full figured women called in to say he was too embarassed to tell his family about his preference and Dan told him to get over being ashamed and just like the kind of women that he liked.

I like "It Gets Better" as a concept, but it exists because his sexuality is the one area of life where Dan Savage doesn't have privilege, and he finds that just outrageous!! Never mind all the people he uses his privilege to ignore/attack/hurt all the tim

I think the point of that was more about anti-bullying

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I personally am against criminalizing sex work, my main reason? How the hell are we going to stop violence against those in that work when they aren't going to report a crime against them out of (a well placed) fear that they will be arrested for their work.

Right there is the problem. First of all, the amount of women who need a "clean, professional sex worker" is negligible. So that means the workers will be women, and women certainly don't need men to use them as fuck toilets.

That is a very heterocentric post right there. Most people who seek out sex workers are men, there for sex workers will be women. News flash, not all men are straight.

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That being said, I've had extensive contact with guys like Sodini (some of whom have called him a hero) and, believe me, hiring prostitutes has been suggested to every single one of those guys, multiple times. And even the many who've hired prostitutes are no less misogynistic and hate-filled for it. So while I agree that prostitution should be legalized, Savage is way off base to think that going to hookers would change these men.

Did you have a series of unfortunate social interactions or was it an occupational hazard? Just curious.

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I read Savage's column on a semi-regular basis, and listen to his podcast every week during my commute and I don't really a hear a lot of misogyny, transphobia, rascism or abelism. I don't always agree with everything he says but I credit him that he's willing to usually acknowledge if he's said something wrong.

Unfortunately if you put "Dan Savage racist"/"Dan Savage transphobic"/"Dan Savage misogynistic" etc into Google you can find any amount of evidence that that is not the case.

As for the fat-hatred thing I have heard his line about how people in long term monogamous relationships should be obligated to stay fit to make their partner happy and i kind of rolled my eyes on that one. On the other hand last week a guy with a preference for full figured women called in to say he was too embarassed to tell his family about his preference and Dan told him to get over being ashamed and just like the kind of women that he liked.

As someone who used to have a lot to do with the size acceptance community, I can tell you Dan Savage looks down on fat people and thinks he's right to do so. Again, "Dan Savage fatphobic" ought to do it.

I think the point of that was more about anti-bullying

Yes, but on the vast majority of discrimination/prejudice issues Dan is the bully. The only reason he is anti-bully in this instance is because it's the one issue that really affects him.

I like the project, but I'm not going to pretend that's not what it came from. And that it didn't end up predictably white and middle-class focussed because of that.

Edited for word choice.

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Did you have a series of unfortunate social interactions or was it an occupational hazard? Just curious.

Heh, I did it to myself.

In 2010 or early 2011, the website Fundies Say The Darndest Things (which posts and mocks stupid or outrageous quotes from fundies of various stripes) had a series of quotes pulled from a message board on a "love shy" website ("love shy" is a term coined by guys who have never had sex/relationships or had them very, very rarely) While some of the guys on the website probably have severe social phobia and are just lonely and sad, many of them are so hateful towards women that it's no wonder they're alone (they, of course, claim that they weren't so hateful until they'd been mistreated by women)

Anyway, the guys from the love shy board ended up coming to the FSTDT website and that's where I interacted with some of them (as much as you can interact with people who turn into mouth-foaming psychopaths at the drop of a hate) and did a fair amount of lurking on their boards.

Back to Dan Savage's point of view, these are some of the quotes from the love shy message board that were posted on FSTDT (each from a different poster and the first coming from the board's owner):

That said I would also like to clarify a few things. Yes, I did encourage Alexius to go buy a gun and kill his crush. Yes, in fact I do admire Cho, The Columbine Duo, George Sodini and any other individual who has found the courage to do what they did and both deliver a warning to society and at the same time challenge our collective morality. I will neither retract, apologize or somehow make my opinion more palatable. I have stood by my comments and I will continue to do so. If you have a problem with that somehow ruining the forums for you, then tough shit. I'm the owner and I say what I want whereas at a moments notice I can restrict your right to do the same.

really sad that womyn got to be this way, it was better a few decades ago... at this point I honestly think a husband needs to be legally allowed to hit his wife once in a while when she misbehaves, it's hard coded in womyn's DNA that a strong man worthy of respect will hit her and severely scold her whenever she tries messing with him, in the end they love their husband a lot more for it... they subconsciously want to be hit and be told to shut up... sad that feminists have screwed this up because it only means that womyn will do all kind of nasty shit that will go completely unchecked and they think they're entitled to it

Considering the hell men have to go through in the feminised world today where everything is skewed to favour women in all areas of life, but especially in the dating scene, then the new system would have to be one which would quickly and swiftly reverse the damage done to our societies by the incessant terrorism of men by feminism and it's policies propped p by governments and institutions. So I'd propose of system of male choice in the dating game. All I'd recommend is one law and one law only with regards to male-female relationships. No matter what a man says to or asks of a woman, a woman cannot say no. A no from a woman could be reported as easily to the Police as a current day rape, and would also be punishable by a jail sentence.

A woman saying no to a man under the new system could be classed as equivalent to raping the man. You may think this is misoginist and harsh, but wake up guys, ugly men are going to prison daily in feminised countries for even looking at women, when the women will claim is that she was raped, only in actual fact to only be looked at by the wrong type of guy for her in the wrong way.

Oh and FYI killing women, and making a political statemnt can be very effective, its something called terrorism, and it has brought major nations to their knees. Kill enough women, make it clear why, and then maybe then society will take you seriously. Im not saying i would do that; i have no desire to go to prison, but i would enthusiastically root for a person or group that would. Sometimes when one is hopeless, HATE is the only thing left going for a person; thats the way it is for me; ive replaced my desire to get a woman, which i know will never happen, with hatred...its not a bad substitute let me tell you that.

Women are fucking worthless cunts. Almost everything that was invented was invented by MEN... even fucking tampons!!! Man you women are so fucking worthless. Women are so stupid many companies have had to completely discard advancement tests because NO women would otherwise qualify. Fuck you all, I hate each and every one of you

So why do women despise me?

I have done nothing to any woman. I have ALWAYS treated them with respect.

So why don't I get some back?

[A few posts later in the same thread]

I'll leave you with this thought;

One day, a loveshy man will not be content with gunning down a few women.

One day, a man will take A THOUSAND of you bitches with him.

Then, maybe the world will sit up and take notice.

My concern for level of pain of rape would be greater if it weren't for the fact that most American women deserve to raped because they oppose prostitution as a sexual outlet for men. Since they deserve to raped, I cannot concern myself with the pain rape causes them.

I would really like to see Dan Savage explain how legalizing prostitution would somehow change these guys. This sort of misogyny is much, much deeper than simply not getting laid.

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I don't think sex work should be criminalized though. I'm pretty much all about harm reduction. Whatever works to reduce human traficking/violence against sex workers.

I wish they'd decriminilize solicitation here, but keep trafficking on the books (i'm neutral on criminalizing prostitution itself- it's so hard to prove, it's very rarely prosecuted, and when it *is* it's almost always in a trafficking context).

Going to jail for being in a protest, if you're a woman, puts you in cellblock with a LOT of women locked up for soliciting. There's not a lot of free choice going on at that level of the industry. But there's also hardly any enforcement on the johns. Street prostitutes very rarely they get picked up for anything but soliciting (or barring that, "suspicious lurking") because the standard of proof is so low, and they're unlikely to get lawyers except maybe public defenders. They rarely get offered any useful help, even if they're underage (which technically makes them trafficking victims), they rarely get offered addiction programs, what happens is they get extra-judicially punished with arrest, detention, and often also by being released without purses, coats, or phones after hours, downtown, sometimes in the bitter cold.

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.

Back to Dan Savage's point of view, these are some of the quotes from the love shy message board that were posted on FSTDT (each from a different poster and the first coming from the board's owner):

I would really like to see Dan Savage explain how legalizing prostitution would somehow change these guys. This sort of misogyny is much, much deeper than simply not getting laid.

Oh my God...I honstly have no words...Misogyny, entitlement, and, honestly, probably some mental unbalance. I can't even...the venom from these words is just sickening and frightening.

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Valsa, those guys are a disgrace and not even very logical. How likely is it terrorist tactics would work to make women behave like they want them to? Not at all. He would be about as successful as Anders Brievik was politically, i.e not in the slightest and everyone thinks you are a nutter.

There's ways these tactics can be effective but not against half the world's population (even if the bizarre claims the loveshy gits made were true.) For a start, relying on lone weirdos gets you nowhere because that tends to be how everyone else regards them - as lone weirdos. Also, just killing people isn't enough, you need to have a group, demands, strategy and all that sort of thing. Terrorism 101, boyo.

I also want to know how one man is going to kill a thousand women (and presumably no or few men, aside from himself, or the point would be lost.) I have an interest in such things and I was quite intrigued by how well Breivik managed in the act if not politically- although he had fairly easy targets, he had a high kill count compared to most lone attackers. He didn't get a hundred. Where are 1000 women at one time that one man will destroy them all? Kinda running scenarios through my head here and coming up with a blank.

Even if you had 2000 women in one place (a seminar, say, or a rally) and you planted really good and elaborate bombs, your chances of getting a thousand are microscopically small. It is important to set reasonable goals as a terrorist, not utterly fucking mental ones.

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...

Back in the days where I thought I had to be polite, kind and forgiving to everyone on the internet, because otherwise how could their poor little brains be able to listen to what I was trying to tell them, I spent a while talking to a guy who very innocently said that he really empathised with Sodini, and was that so wrong? So I very nicely explained why it was wrong, and very nicely explained why killing women isn't okay, and very nicely HINTED that women didn't owe him sex just because he wanted it (couldn't say it directly, that would be TOO MEAN you NASTY FEMINIST), and okay, this anecdote doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I felt the need to share.

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Eh, I'll "insist" on liking Dan Savage as long as I continue to like the majority of his work.

Yeah, sometimes he's a dick. Sometimes I am a dick, sometimes everyone is a dick. I have been reading his column pretty steadily for the past five years, though, and while there's been plenty of instances of dickishness, I am seriously failing to see a thread connecting them as proofs of his raging misogyny and [insert minority of choice]-phobia. And even when I disagree with him, and I do often (pitbulls, anyone?), I don't think that is a proof of him being an asshat. I just think he's wrong, especially when trying to push his pet issues - like legalizing sex work. But that does not negate all of his good writing.

A good (not perfect, but good) article summarizing my position would be [link=http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/04/did_dan_savage_deserve_to_be_glitter_bombed_.html]this one[/link]. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't understand people insisting on demonizing him any more than people lifting him up as the gay coming of Jesus.

All of that to say: deelaem, I don't find post you linked to ignorant and offensive. Your own posts though, certainly, for reasons others have already pointed out.

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Eh, I'll "insist" on liking Dan Savage as long as I continue to like the majority of his work.

Yeah, sometimes he's a dick. Sometimes I am a dick, sometimes everyone is a dick. I have been reading his column pretty steadily for the past five years, though, and while there's been plenty of instances of dickishness, I am seriously failing to see a thread connecting them as proofs of his raging misogyny and [insert minority of choice]-phobia. And even when I disagree with him, and I do often (pitbulls, anyone?), I don't think that is a proof of him being an asshat. I just think he's wrong, especially when trying to push his pet issues - like legalizing sex work. But that does not negate all of his good writing.

A good (not perfect, but good) article summarizing my position would be [link=http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/04/did_dan_savage_deserve_to_be_glitter_bombed_.html]this one[/link]. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't understand people insisting on demonizing him any more than people lifting him up as the gay coming of Jesus.

All of that to say: deelaem, I don't find post you linked to ignorant and offensive. Your own posts though, certainly, for reasons others have already pointed out.

Just because you disagree with someone, it doesn't make their posts ignorant and offensive. What others are you talking about and what have they pointed out?

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Austin, I think tlhe poster means deeleam referring to sex workers as "fuck toilets". Something by the way I would expect to hear from an MRA crazy, not a self professed rad fem. Here's a hint: just because you throw around terms like "rape culture" and patriarchy doen't mean your not a person with bias against women. It's fine if you really think your superior to most of us unenlightned women, but it would be nice if you would just own it rather than spewing forth condescending venom towards women who may be doing things that don't carry the rad fem seal of approval.

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While, yes, there are a certain percentage of sex workers who are in the profession through a conscious reasoned decision, obviously not all of them are.

Given that, we can't assume as a group that these women (and young boys) are content in there line of work and that they are at peace with the use of economic coercion to perform sex acts. Plus, these entitled misogynist sociopaths will not take a single moment to seek out a happy hooker in there quest to get their dick wet.

Hell, they can't be humane long enough to everyday people to manage relationships anyway. They'd be up for the first 15 year old runaway that crosses there path, and pay her with a sandwich because her whore ass isn't worth real money.

inmalafide.com/blog/2011/12/07/pooning-on-a-tight-budget/

Dan Savage's advice is thoughtless and apathic to women, casually misogynist but not maleovent. Just exactly as sexist as most of the world.

I'm a radfem that doesn't have a problem with prostitution as a theory, but our social structure is way too problematic in terms of power differential between men and women, economic classes and puritan shame in sexual acts. Perhaps one day, we will be enlightened enough to manage.

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You know, as soon as I hit "Submit" I knew I'd regret posting this. Dan Savage is such a liberal sacred cow. I keep forgetting that my radical feminist perspective is so different from that of moderate feminists. I'll be kicking myself all day.

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