for those who insist on liking Dan Savage

[eohiken]

So I'm learning about feminism as it correlates to FJ.. and I have a couple questions.

I understand you only included cis-hetero issues here but I just wanna clarify some things. You stated "A man requesting oral from a woman is different from a woman requesting oral from a man". So in a bed room, if a man asks a committed, loving partner to give him oral he is wrong, a product of the patriarchy, and a horrible for trying to put his privilege on his partner. But if a woman asks a man to give her oral, she is okay and a true feminist? If a woman chooses, of her own free will, to wear heals or a pushup bra, she is a product of the patriarchy. Even if she makes these decisions on her own, of her own free will, she is not intelligent enough because all she knows is doing things for men... even if she doesn't believe she is.

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a thing that favors women... if this is the feminist view point. I'm sure some witty retort will come up that my half irish/half native american gay male privilege is clouding my view as I'm a product of the patriarchy... but I don't see how a group can totally dismiss people in it's own group saying they aren't doing it right by doing things different from how they would do it... And yes, it's as confusing to me as that sentence is to you.

I'm not snarking... I'm trying to learn. Deelaem, bless her heart, annoys the fuck out of me, so I'm hoping a few feminists can help me understand how the above is true.

(I do wanna say before being jumped on, obvious there are different types of feminists, and feminism means something different to everyone. I fully support women's rights, so by some that makes me a feminist. There is a reason I specified feminism as it relates to FJ, not the world. And there are many types of feminists that post on these boards.)

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, horrible or even necessarily bad/anti-feminist. It's not about judging everyone's choices on a high throne of feminism.

It's about understanding expectations, why one choice seems inherently the easy one to make because that's what normal people do. If one choice - let us an simple appearance based one, like wearing makeup for women, is expected, supported and gets positive feedback from the culture, while the other choice is belittled, scorned or outright chastised in certain situations. This makes the choice to wear makeup extremely easy, while chosing not to not easy. It turns out a lot of women choose to wear makeup, "for themselves," they ENJOY wearing makeup, well yes, when the world supports your choice, it's not a hard choice is it, rather enjoyable?

I know of staunch feminists who wear makeup, hose and heals everyday. They perform their female appearance fully cognizant of the ramifications, for the sake of their careers, to do otherwise whould have significant ramifications for their professional lives. That doesn't make them less feminist.

OK, so in bed; no one is stupid for saying, "yes dear, I will blow you, tonight." Nor are men displaying male privilege evil. I will give a personal anecdote. Mr Ohiken is as feminist as they come in male form. Mr Ohiken also is a jokester. He likes to raz me over just about everything. Welp, he was on a streak for a while about how he doesn't get bjs. TMI-time, we do oral, but it's not the whole she-bang, this is a mutually prefered thing. So I had enough of this particular joke and pointedly asked him if that was in fact what he wanted, a bj, because my years of experience with him in bed said otherwise. He said no, he did not want a bj. I asked why on earth was he bothering me about it. He didn't know, couldn't really explain why, I suppose he wasn't aware enough to know he was just buying into the common script. But the point is, we are a feminist couple, we have a mutually satisfactory sex life, and yet we are still subject to the culture around us, even in our bedroom.

Feminism isn't about telling people they are doing shit wrong, it's about giving people the space to be themselves outside cultural expectations without fallout. These questions come up so we can each explore what *we* truly want, and who we are, not what we are expected to want, or be. Yes, it's hard and uncomfortable to consider being a 'tool of the patriarchy', but we all are, even me, Deelam, Twisty Faster and every other imfamous feminist, internetian and otherwise.

[Alecto]

Feminism isn't about telling people they are doing shit wrong, it's about giving people the space to be themselves outside cultural expectations without fallout. These questions come up so we can each explore what *we* truly want, and who we are, not what we are expected to want, or be. Yes, it's hard and uncomfortable to consider being a 'tool of the patriarchy', but we all are, even me, Deelam, Twisty Faster and every other imfamous feminist, internetian and otherwise.

But there in lies the rub - many radfems I have encountered, here or otherwise, are insistent that I am "doing it wrong" if I am not of the exact same opinions or actions they are. To me, that reeks of the exact same fundamentalist mindset that we fight against. And just like with Christianity, those voices often push out the more moderate viewpoints simply because they want to be the loudest.

I mean, I identify as bisexual. I get shit from all sides. But I firmly believe I am not "doing it wrong." I am making choices that make me happy, and I try not to worry about the outside world's perception of me.

[valsa]

I asked why on earth was he bothering me about it. He didn't know, couldn't really explain why, I suppose he wasn't aware enough to know he was just buying into the common script.

Just throwing it out there- I often feel pressure to like The Big Bang Theory for reasons I cannot fully articulate.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, horrible or even necessarily bad/anti-feminist. It's not about judging everyone's choices on a high throne of feminism.

It's about understanding expectations, why one choice seems inherently the easy one to make because that's what normal people do. If one choice - let us an simple appearance based one, like wearing makeup for women, is expected, supported and gets positive feedback from the culture, while the other choice is belittled, scorned or outright chastised in certain situations. This makes the choice to wear makeup extremely easy, while chosing not to not easy. It turns out a lot of women choose to wear makeup, "for themselves," they ENJOY wearing makeup, well yes, when the world supports your choice, it's not a hard choice is it, rather enjoyable?

I know of staunch feminists who wear makeup, hose and heals everyday. They perform their female appearance fully cognizant of the ramifications, for the sake of their careers, to do otherwise whould have significant ramifications for their professional lives. That doesn't make them less feminist.

OK, so in bed; no one is stupid for saying, "yes dear, I will blow you, tonight." Nor are men displaying male privilege evil. I will give a personal anecdote. Mr Ohiken is as feminist as they come in male form. Mr Ohiken also is a jokester. He likes to raz me over just about everything. Welp, he was on a streak for a while about how he doesn't get bjs. TMI-time, we do oral, but it's not the whole she-bang, this is a mutually prefered thing. So I had enough of this particular joke and pointedly asked him if that was in fact what he wanted, a bj, because my years of experience with him in bed said otherwise. He said no, he did not want a bj. I asked why on earth was he bothering me about it. He didn't know, couldn't really explain why, I suppose he wasn't aware enough to know he was just buying into the common script. But the point is, we are a feminist couple, we have a mutually satisfactory sex life, and yet we are still subject to the culture around us, even in our bedroom.

Feminism isn't about telling people they are doing shit wrong, it's about giving people the space to be themselves outside cultural expectations without fallout. These questions come up so we can each explore what *we* truly want, and who we are, not what we are expected to want, or be. Yes, it's hard and uncomfortable to consider being a 'tool of the patriarchy', but we all are, even me, Deelam, Twisty Faster and every other imfamous feminist, internetian and otherwise.

I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying, because it sounds like a giant contradiction.

You now say that feminism isn't about telling people they are doing it wrong, it's about giving people the space to be themselves outside cultural expectations without fallout. All fine and good.

However, if you insist that a man is taking advantage of male privilege for merely asking for a BJ, or that a woman must be under the ebil influence of sexism if she gives him a BJ or wears makeup - you aren't giving them space to be themselves at all. You're just imposing a DIFFERENT set of cultural expectations.

I want men to feel free to express their desires to their partners. I want women to feel free to say no if they aren't into it. I want women to feel free to express their desires to men. I think that some honesty and communication is good. If my hubby kept making "jokes", I'd think that he was being passive-aggressive and just ask him to have a straightforward conversation with me. I also think that in a great relationship, each partner should WANT to please the other. Does the source of the idea really matter? If partner A likes it, and partner B doesn't mind and likes turning on partner A, what's the problem? Especially if partner A is appreciative and willing to likewise please partner B?

I also think that a couple should make decisions based upon what is best for them, and shut out the cultural noise when it interferes with that. So yes, we don't think about what anyone else thinks about what goes on in our intimate lives, since that's our business alone. By the same token, hubby wasn't afraid to walk into job interviews and ask about paternity leave policies 13 year ago, despite some appallingly sexist reactions.

[Terrie]

Not necessarily just het relationships, QUILTBAG community live within our heteronormative culture and can feel the same/similar relationship pressures.

So which letter do you fall under? Radfem has some good points (everyone does, even Dan Savage), but it also presents itself as the "universal theory about all wrongs done to all people at all places in all times." Because as an asexual, I can tell you that radfem can NOT speak to that experience. The movement that helped give rise to political lesbianism (rooted in the concept of the central importance of the sexual experience) is as much a part of the problem of denying the asexual experience as any other part of society.

[booksnbeats]

Reading Dan Savage's column for the past 11 years has done a lot more to improve my sex life than reading what "radfems" on the internet think about sex.

[ceg045]

However, if you insist that a man is taking advantage of male privilege for merely asking for a BJ, or that a woman must be under the ebil influence of sexism if she gives him a BJ or wears makeup - you aren't giving them space to be themselves at all. You're just imposing a DIFFERENT set of cultural expectations.

[Rosa]

Yep. It's not even "just on the internet" - that experience of radfems coming to tell us all how we're doing it wrong predates the internet (this is the definition of "radical feminist" that we're using here, not just "feminists who are radical", the one that insists gender oppression is the root of all oppressions). I am trying to find an online version of the Dykes to Watch Out For strips about Milkweed - they used to be on the fridge in a house I lived in, because a Milkweed liked to visit us and eat our food and then say she couldn't hang with us because she was too evolved and the presence of porn and meat in our house made her ill (she was the best friend of my girlfriend's ex girlfriend, I think? She was trying to save me from being myself, since I wasn't radical enough, and it was before I learned I could just tell people of her ilk to get the fuck out of my house.) But nobody seems to have it posted and I don't have a scanner to scan it out of one of my collections.

I have known a lot of amazing, gentle, loving, lead-by-example spearatists, but never on the internet - I think in that way they're like fundies, you don't know what the person's beliefs are until they are preaching at you so it's easy to assume people are middle-of-the-road when they're just, you know, practitioners instead of preachers.

[fakepigtails73]

So which letter do you fall under? Radfem has some good points (everyone does, even Dan Savage), but it also presents itself as the "universal theory about all wrongs done to all people at all places in all times." Because as an asexual, I can tell you that radfem can NOT speak to that experience. The movement that helped give rise to political lesbianism (rooted in the concept of the central importance of the sexual experience) is as much a part of the problem of denying the asexual experience as any other part of society.

Sorry for my being stupid, but what's a "QUILTBAG community"??

[Lainey]

*ahem*

High-heeled shoes=heels. That is all. Carry on. [/pedant]

*slinks away*

[BlackHawk]

Sorry for my being stupid, but what's a "QUILTBAG community"??

It's a horrible, stupid acronym people use for the different communities. gay/genderqueer, lesbian, bi, trans, Queer/questioning, intersex, allied/asexual. I, personally, find it horribly offensive, but that's my personal opinion. I am not a quiltbag.

[eohiken]

I don't have a letter, I'm a hag from way back. I'm used to the LQBT acronym myself, but that's my age, I was trying to be hip like them youngsters.

Big Bang Theory raises my hackles, but all my friends love it.

[eohiken]

*ahem*

High-heeled shoes=heels. That is all. Carry on. [/pedant]

*slinks away*

*shamed*

[eohiken]

Yep. It's not even "just on the internet" - that experience of radfems coming to tell us all how we're doing it wrong predates the internet (this is the definition of "radical feminist" that we're using here, not just "feminists who are radical", the one that insists gender oppression is the root of all oppressions). I am trying to find an online version of the Dykes to Watch Out For strips about Milkweed - they used to be on the fridge in a house I lived in, because a Milkweed liked to visit us and eat our food and then say she couldn't hang with us because she was too evolved and the presence of porn and meat in our house made her ill (she was the best friend of my girlfriend's ex girlfriend, I think? She was trying to save me from being myself, since I wasn't radical enough, and it was before I learned I could just tell people of her ilk to get the fuck out of my house.) But nobody seems to have it posted and I don't have a scanner to scan it out of one of my collections.

I have known a lot of amazing, gentle, loving, lead-by-example spearatists, but never on the internet - I think in that way they're like fundies, you don't know what the person's beliefs are until they are preaching at you so it's easy to assume people are middle-of-the-road when they're just, you know, practitioners instead of preachers.

You know, it's not a good thing, what you are saying, and I absolutely know where you are coming from. Unfortunately, feminists, being people, fall into the zealousness and obnoxiousness of the newly converted, as they do tunnel vision from self segregation.

[valsa]

It's a horrible, stupid acronym people use for the different communities. gay/genderqueer, lesbian, bi, trans, Queer/questioning, intersex, allied/asexual. I, personally, find it horribly offensive, but that's my personal opinion. I am not a quiltbag.

Here here! I hate that fucking acronym.

Since we're all about reading into terminology more than we probably should on this thread *coughcocksuckercough*, how is referring to queer people by anything with the term "bag" in it acceptable, seeing as the first two things that pop into my head when hearing it are "douchebag" and "teabag"? (whether the sexual or the political term, it's still offensive)

[fakepigtails73]

Here here! I hate that fucking acronym.

Since we're all about reading into terminology more than we probably should on this thread *coughcocksuckercough*, how is referring to queer people by anything with the term "bag" in it acceptable, seeing as the first two things that pop into my head when hearing it are "douchebag" and "teabag"? (whether the sexual or the political term, it's still offensive)

Thanks for the explanation...

The whole QUILTBAG accronym seems overly complicated for nothing. I'll stick with LGBT myself.

[Terrie]

I get the point of it, which is to try and covered everyone who doesn't fit the binary male/female gender and sexuality paradigm, but it blurs together some groups that are dealing with issues unique to them and which may lose their voice if subsumed into a larger spectrum.

[Alecto]

I've never heard quiltbag before...

Though I am guilty of LBGTQAOMGWTFBBQ

[CanadianHippie]

I'm an LBGTQ person. Q being for both queer and questioning, and T being Trandgender which encompasses all non-normative gender identity.

[lilah]

Yeah I can follow along for LGBTQ is fine (although I've never quite understood what Queer means as separated from LGBT, since I always thought Queer meant gay/Lesbian) but then when you add on extra letters I started to get lost.

[Rosa]

You know, it's not a good thing, what you are saying, and I absolutely know where you are coming from. Unfortunately, feminists, being people, fall into the zealousness and obnoxiousness of the newly converted, as they do tunnel vision from self segregation.

Also, if they were judgemental assholes as regular old patriarchal women, they are just as likely to be assholes as feminists.

Which I'm pretty sure is the real difference of opinion here: Deela thinks people rankle at her posts because of her IDEAS and it's generally her ATTITUDE.

[CanadianHippie]

Yeah I can follow along for LGBTQ is fine (although I've never quite understood what Queer means as separated from LGBT, since I always thought Queer meant gay/Lesbian) but then when you add on extra letters I started to get lost.

Queer also includes asexuals and pansexuals, both of which don't fall under the LGB part of LGBTQ.

[Alecto]

I'm an LBGTQ person. Q being for both queer and questioning, and T being Trandgender which encompasses all non-normative gender identity.

T is in no way inclusive of all gender identity. Sometimes Q also is genderqueer or third gender.

[meda]

Queer also includes asexuals and pansexuals, both of which don't fall under the LGB part of LGBTQ.

Not snarky, just ignorant: what does pansexual mean ?

[BlackHawk]

Not snarky, just ignorant: what does pansexual mean ?

a buzz word to mean inclusive of all genders. Instead of bisexual, which indicates there is only 2 genders of the world, pansexual is someone who, by their definition, does not pay attention to a partners gender or sex, but feels they can love anyone for any reason.