Say Yes to the Dress: White=Purity

[Maul the Koala]

Does anyone else watch these trainwreck bridal shows? The Atlanta version was on tonight and there was a father who only wanted his daughter in white because it was the colour of purity. The daughter picked out a pink dress and the father was absolutely furious! He finally said in the talking head segment that "Purity is in your heart, not in the colour of your dress".

This seems to happen a lot on these bridal shows where the entourage insist on pure white dresses because that's the colour of virginity. No off-white or ivory lest people think the bride is a hussy! There was even a bride on Four Weddings this evening who had a pink-ish dress and she said "Yeah I'm not a virgin so I didn't want to wear white".

Why do people feel comfortable broadcasting this to the world on basic cable? And why is it always the entourages insisting that the bride is a virgin?

[Renting with Raggles]

I always heard it was Queen Victoria who had the first white wedding dress and made it popular. She rarely wore anything but white, black and grey her whole life because most colours did not suit her pudgy figure and sallow complexion. Not hatin' on Vicky, just sayin'.

Before that women just wore their best dress in whatever colour they liked.

[alphaeta08]

Yup, saw it. First of all, that woman was 25 freaking years old, so chances are the purity ship has already sailed. Secondly, "pink" wedding dresses are never actually pink, just pink-ish. Thirdly, what is a father even doing at a wedding dress appointment? Even if he pays for it, I can't imagine most dads being interested whatsoever in the actual dress. The only reason I like white wedding dresses is because you can tell who the bride is. I had no idea about the purity connotation until much later. :roll:

[ilovetchotchkes]

I always heard it was Queen Victoria who had the first white wedding dress and made it popular. She rarely wore anything but white, black and grey her whole life because most colours did not suit her pudgy figure and sallow complexion. Not hatin' on Vicky, just sayin'.

Before that women just wore their best dress in whatever colour they liked.

Not only that but a white dress was a pretty ostentatious sign of wealth. It meant, in the days before dry cleaning for fine silks you could not do pretty much ANYTHING in it except sit and look gorgeous.

Most women who had a white dress like that though, would have it redyed after the wedding so that they could wear it again because back then it was a lot more rarer to have a dress you will only wear 1x in your entire life.

[Sister Mary Savage]

I read about Queen Victoria being the first to start the white dress trend too. I think she started the trend and it didn't really have anything to do with purity.

[Maul the Koala]

I think the bridal salons should have pamphlets of what wearing a white dress actually symbolizes instead of purity. It's entertaining to see these people make fools of themselves on television but I do feel embarassed for some of the brides when the entourage starts insisting she's a virgin. Even the self proclaimed virgin bride (who hadn't kissed her fiance, ever) on the Four Weddings episode last week wore a dress that was mostly green!

[holierthanyou]

Haha, I just read this while watching 4 Weddings and literally was listening to a bride talk about how she told her mom to add something red to the (white) dress because white was for virgins and she wasn't a virgin.

[Witsec7]

Most women who had a white dress like that though, would have it redyed after the wedding so that they could wear it again because back then it was a lot more rarer to have a dress you will only wear 1x in your entire life.

I've also read accounts where the wedding dress was eventually dyed black for a mourning dress. Have you heard this as well tchotchkes?

[ilovetchotchkes]

I've also read accounts where the wedding dress was eventually dyed black for a mourning dress. Have you heard this as well tchotchkes?

I'd have to check. Mourning changed and evolved SO MUCH during that time period, its crazy. Initially it was just like, 3 stages, then in like the 1880s and 1890s it was like this super crazy complicated system of mourning, and it all depended on who died and how close you were to them.

I'm guessing typically not, simply because first stage mourning always had to be matte, no reflection- so silk would shimmer. I'll have to do some more research. Mourning doesn't interest me as much as the underwear. :o

[Wolfie]

I always heard it was Queen Victoria who had the first white wedding dress and made it popular. She rarely wore anything but white, black and grey her whole life because most colours did not suit her pudgy figure and sallow complexion. Not hatin' on Vicky, just sayin'. :doh:

Yeah, she was pudgy as she got older, but have you seen some of the younger pictures?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lbert.html

The only thing I can agree with you on was that she did wear black when she was older, once Albert died she never left mourning clothing. (But black was also considered a fashion color- very high fashion because it would fade easily, so if you were wealthy you could afford to keep replacing your clothing as it faded.)

But yeah, even well into the 1900's women just wore their best dress to their weddings. Clothing was far more expensive compared to income than it was today and people just didn't have the money to waste on a one wear only dress.

[Maul the Koala]

I'd have to check. Mourning changed and evolved SO MUCH during that time period, its crazy. Initially it was just like, 3 stages, then in like the 1880s and 1890s it was like this super crazy complicated system of mourning, and it all depended on who died and how close you were to them.

I'm guessing typically not, simply because first stage mourning always had to be matte, no reflection- so silk would shimmer. I'll have to do some more research. Mourning doesn't interest me as much as the underwear. :o

I remember reading somewhere to have non-black clothes at all during a mourning period was not allowed. This would be somewhere in the States in the 1800s. You couldn't even own a piece of clothing that wasn't black. Do you know anything about that?

[Wolfie]

Not only that but a white dress was a pretty ostentatious sign of wealth. It meant, in the days before dry cleaning for fine silks you could not do pretty much ANYTHING in it except sit and look gorgeous.

Most women who had a white dress like that though, would have it redyed after the wedding so that they could wear it again because back then it was a lot more rarer to have a dress you will only wear 1x in your entire life.

Yep, clothes were not cheap like today. But redying also wasn't as easy as it is today. White was considered a color only for the young in Victorian times, and once a woman hit a certain age, white became limited to accessories and they wouldn't have worn a white dress anyway. Most people I know who have had weddings in period clothing usually choose silk taffeta, but in a pale color, like maybe a dove gray, instead of white.

[Boogalou]

I watched that tonight, but people so that to much on SYTTD that I tune it out, I mainly watch it for the dresses anyway. What I thought was even stranger was the woman who came for her dress fitting and was practically in tears that her father was not there for it. Then he surprised her by showing up and they both started bawling. It was waaaaay creepy to me.

[Wolfie]

I remember reading somewhere to have non-black clothes at all during a mourning period was not allowed. This would be somewhere in the States in the 1800s. You couldn't even own a piece of clothing that wasn't black. Do you know anything about that?

It totally depended on the stage and how close you were, as was mentioned above. And the strange thing is that for a little child, they'd be dressed in white with black accessories, and for an adult it could be the opposite. Or it could be lavender or gray in some stages. To make it more confusing, all these colors were also fashion colors, so you would have to know the style and accessories to know if it was mourning or not. But I do not think that it would be common to throw out all your non-black clothes. Clothing was EXPENSIVE, and the average middle class woman might only have 3 or 4 dresses.

AKA, just because a dress was black does not mean it was a Victorian mourning dress.

[Renting with Raggles]

Yeah, she was pudgy as she got older, but have you seen some of the younger pictures?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lbert.html

The only thing I can agree with you on was that she did wear black when she was older, once Albert died she never left mourning clothing. (But black was also considered a fashion color- very high fashion because it would fade easily, so if you were wealthy you could afford to keep replacing your clothing as it faded.)

I thought she struggled with her weight even before she was married. I read somewhere that Lord Melbourne was always on at her to watch her diet and exercise. She looks pudgy to me in the Winterhalter painting, and that was done when she was fairly young. Plus all those fatty Hanover royal genes. I expect the artists who painted her when young were given very little license to depict her realistically.

Of course she had to wear black when Albert the Good died.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yeah, she was pudgy as she got older, but have you seen some of the younger pictures?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lbert.html

The only thing I can agree with you on was that she did wear black when she was older, once Albert died she never left mourning clothing. (But black was also considered a fashion color- very high fashion because it would fade easily, so if you were wealthy you could afford to keep replacing your clothing as it faded.)

But yeah, even well into the 1900's women just wore their best dress to their weddings. Clothing was far more expensive compared to income than it was today and people just didn't have the money to waste on a one wear only dress.

That and for the most part dyes were NOT colorfast they didn't have the mordants we have today and they bled. HORRIBLY.

I'm sure you were allowed to own it, just not to wear it. Simply for the fact that someone mentioned, clothing was WAY more expensive than it is now. You'd probably shove it in a trunk. What's very interesting is that its a true obvious sign that you've lost someone. Now? we dont' do stuff like that, we don't confront death. Someone i know got THREE DAYS bereavement leave when her spouse died!!!!

IIRC: (and this is for Civil war era not the later crazy following ones)

1st stage: All outerwear black, even your collar. (I think your underwear could be white). The black had to be non reflective.

2nd stage: All black outerwear but you could add touches of color. But only certain ones. White, grey or purple=acceptable

3rd stage: muted tones. Dove grey with touches of purple for example.

My favorite Civil war reenacting dress is technically a 3rd stage mourning dress.

Accessories that would probably be worn during mourning: hair jewelry and gutta percha.

[Wolfie]

I thought she struggled with her weight even before she was married. I read somewhere that Lord Melbourne was always on at her to watch her diet and exercise. She looks pudgy to me in the Winterhalter painting, and that was done when she was fairly young. Plus all those fatty Hanover royal genes. I expect the artists who painted her when young were given very little license to depict her realistically.

Of course she had to wear black when Albert the Good died.

My dad was always after me to watch what I ate as a child and teen. I weighed about 110 lbs and was 5'10" at 18, and ate what I wanted anyway. I don't think that somebody nagging you about keeping in shape is really anything to indicate how much you weigh. (btw- he did the same thing to my mom, and we both totally ignored it.)

She also had all those kids with Albert- I really think that is what did her weight in. What we now consider "pudgy" was healthy then. I know I've read the measurments on her corsets when she was younger, but all I've seen lately is the measurment on her drawers from when she was older.

[Renting with Raggles]

I'm probably wrong about Queen Victoria's weight. Didn't know she had so many fangirls here! :)

But the original point is that her white wedding dress wasn't about purity, it was just a colour she liked, and other women followed her fashion.

[Wolfie]

That and for the most part dyes were NOT colorfast they didn't have the mordants we have today and they bled. HORRIBLY.

I'm sure you were allowed to own it, just not to wear it. Simply for the fact that someone mentioned, clothing was WAY more expensive than it is now. You'd probably shove it in a trunk. What's very interesting is that its a true obvious sign that you've lost someone. Now? we dont' do stuff like that, we don't confront death. Someone i know got THREE DAYS bereavement leave when her spouse died!!!!

IIRC: (and this is for Civil war era not the later crazy following ones)

1st stage: All outerwear black, even your collar. (I think your underwear could be white). The black had to be non reflective.

2nd stage: All black outerwear but you could add touches of color. But only certain ones. White, grey or purple=acceptable

3rd stage: muted tones. Dove grey with touches of purple for example.

My favorite Civil war reenacting dress is technically a 3rd stage mourning dress.

Accessories that would probably be worn during mourning: hair jewelry and gutta percha.

I do early Victorian, so it's slightly different at our site, but even then it is the dull black fabrics. (if you see a black taffeta dress labled as mourning, somebody doesn't know what they are doing.) My dresses are not mourning dresses at all. I love to wear bright colors and then people argue with me that they couldn't have gotten those colors.... I like to keep natural dye samples with me to prove them wrong. The colors just wouldn't have lasted as long as they do now before fading.

Some of the dyes could be very colorfast- cochineal and indigo are two that I've had little fading from. They did have good mordants, but natural dyes other than the first two I've mentioned, just aren't very color and lightfast. Not to mention that they used harsher morndants to get colors like black, so it really weakened the fabric. I have never tried to get black from natural dyes because the mordants needed are so nasty.

[Wolfie]

I'm probably wrong about Queen Victoria's weight. Didn't know she had so many fangirls here! :)

But the original point is that her white wedding dress wasn't about purity, it was just a colour she liked, and other women followed her fashion.

I totally agree on her dress. It is kind of like front lacing shoes on women. Until Albert bought her a pair, they were considered low fashion. People copied her.

(but I do love my side lacing Robert Lands.)

[ladypuglover]

Not only that but a white dress was a pretty ostentatious sign of wealth. It meant, in the days before dry cleaning for fine silks you could not do pretty much ANYTHING in it except sit and look gorgeous.

Most women who had a white dress like that though, would have it redyed after the wedding so that they could wear it again because back then it was a lot more rarer to have a dress you will only wear 1x in your entire life.

Queen Victoria wasn't the first to wear white but she made it vogue. And you bot are right as far as I know.

[DarkAnts]

I do early Victorian, so it's slightly different at our site, but even then it is the dull black fabrics. (if you see a black taffeta dress labled as mourning, somebody doesn't know what they are doing.) My dresses are not mourning dresses at all. I love to wear bright colors and then people argue with me that they couldn't have gotten those colors.... I like to keep natural dye samples with me to prove them wrong. The colors just wouldn't have lasted as long as they do now before fading.

Some of the dyes could be very colorfast- cochineal and indigo are two that I've had little fading from. They did have good mordants, but natural dyes other than the first two I've mentioned, just aren't very color and lightfast. Not to mention that they used harsher morndants to get colors like black, so it really weakened the fabric. I have never tried to get black from natural dyes because the mordants needed are so nasty.

Agreed, you dont need a modern mordent to have a colorfast dye. Wool and other "protein fibers" are colorfast if they are dyed with an acidic mordent. You can even dye wool with nothing but coolaid and have a colorfast yarn. Cotten and other "cellulose fibers" need a base mordent. In the victorian times, they had access to both acids and bases. The problem is that many of the dyes were not light fast. I have dyed wool with turmeric. It creates a nice yellow fabric. The yellow fades drastically once you expose it to light.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Agreed, you dont need a modern mordent to have a colorfast dye. Wool and other "protein fibers" are colorfast if they are dyed with an acidic mordent. You can even dye wool with nothing but coolaid and have a colorfast yarn. Cotten and other "cellulose fibers" need a base mordent. In the victorian times, they had access to both acids and bases. The problem is that many of the dyes were not light fast. I have dyed wool with turmeric. It creates a nice yellow fabric. The yellow fades drastically once you expose it to light.

Yeah, i forgot, wool the wonderful wonder fabric. It won't BURN. I love wool. And i'm running on like 3 hours of sleep.... lol I know in like the early 1860s was when the analine dyes showed up because someone was trying to invent something else (quinine drug?) and ended up with magenta or mauve. And the analine dyes were like crazy bright, and pretty colorfast. I think what i was thinking of was what black dye did to the fabric, made it weaker. Sorry guys, i'm running on like 1 cylinder today.

[Wolfie]

Yeah, i forgot, wool the wonderful wonder fabric. It won't BURN. I love wool. And i'm running on like 3 hours of sleep.... lol I know in like the early 1860s was when the analine dyes showed up because someone was trying to invent something else (quinine drug?) and ended up with magenta or mauve. And the analine dyes were like crazy bright, and pretty colorfast. I think what i was thinking of was what black dye did to the fabric, made it weaker. Sorry guys, i'm running on like 1 cylinder today.

Yes, there is a whole book about the invention of mauvine. It was invented in 1856 (I looked it up to double check things, and scared myself by remembering the right date.) I have a hobby/small business dyeing yarn and fiber, and while I mostly do chemical dyes, I have people who want natural dyes, so I do those too.

[Wolfie]

Agreed, you dont need a modern mordent to have a colorfast dye. Wool and other "protein fibers" are colorfast if they are dyed with an acidic mordent. You can even dye wool with nothing but coolaid and have a colorfast yarn. Cotten and other "cellulose fibers" need a base mordent. In the victorian times, they had access to both acids and bases. The problem is that many of the dyes were not light fast. I have dyed wool with turmeric. It creates a nice yellow fabric. The yellow fades drastically once you expose it to light.

Which is why when you see a solid colored dress from the Victorian period, it is either white, or it's wool or silk. There are other mordants that are still available now that they used then- alum, tin, copper, ect... But highly acidic dyes, like oak galls and black walnut husks don't need mordants to get browns. (but I know that there were nasty mordants added to oak galls to get black.) Even with mordants, cottons don't hold natural dyes well, other than indigo, but indigo is a pigment that binds into the fibers, so it's not really a dye. I've gotten lovely yellows with several different things on wool with alum. Dill, Saffron(I had old expired powder, figured I'd use it for something!), osage orange sawdust, ect. All had varying degrees of lightfastness. As I mentioned before, really the only two natural dyes that I've found to have good light and colorfastness in my own dyeing were indigo (a pigment, not really a dye) and cochineal with alum mordant on wool.