Yep, The Pearls Still Advoate Spanking

[Blonde not dumb]

Maybe, just maybe, the poor child lied because she was terrified of the harsh punishment that would come from fessing up. I mean she was really just a baby. I'm not saying there shouldn't have been a consequence, but the cruelty of some people will never cease to amaze me.

[Love]

I don't spank my kids. I also don't freak out when they tell lies. We talk, a LOT, about lying and trust. The true consequence of lying is losing trust. My boys are 9 and 12, and when they lose the trust of their parents they lose privileges that are similar to their offense. Lets say the 12 year old lied about doing his homework - then he is only allowed to do his homework with me from that point until trust has built up again. Eventually he may be able to go to his room again to do homework, but he's stuck at the kitchen table with me staring at him until we get to that place again.

Anyway, I found this in a different article from this month's magazine and now I am sick to my stomach...

It is about anger...

We have been chasing and kissing and tickling and even at times when the anger is really awful and it will not run away I have to spank it out. Now, three weeks later, there is less and less anger and she tells me that anger cannot hurt her anymore. Some days when I see frustration begin to build in her I catch her in my arms and spin in circles while saying,

This is such incredible manipulation. Its just disgusting to me. I guess this is how they get the kids to thank them for beatings?

oh, here's the link. http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... e-garbage/

[Blonde not dumb]

I don't spank my kids. I also don't freak out when they tell lies. We talk, a LOT, about lying and trust. The true consequence of lying is losing trust. My boys are 9 and 12, and when they lose the trust of their parents they lose privileges that are similar to their offense. Lets say the 12 year old lied about doing his homework - then he is only allowed to do his homework with me from that point until trust has built up again. Eventually he may be able to go to his room again to do homework, but he's stuck at the kitchen table with me staring at him until we get to that place again.

Anyway, I found this in a different article from this month's magazine and now I am sick to my stomach...

It is about anger...

This is such incredible manipulation. Its just disgusting to me. I guess this is how they get the kids to thank them for beatings?

oh, here's the link. http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... e-garbage/

That article is disgusting! I hate the idea that girls have to always be sweet and can't be angry. Anger is just another emotion like happiness or anything else. These fundies would do well to read the parts of their Bible where Jesus got angry. Anger is not wrong it's only what we do when we're angry that has the potential to be. A parent needs to help their young children with developing minds and impulse control learn how to express their anger (among other emotions) appropriately, not suppress it. Hope there's a therapy fund.

[Koala]

I don't spank my kids. I also don't freak out when they tell lies. We talk, a LOT, about lying and trust. The true consequence of lying is losing trust. My boys are 9 and 12, and when they lose the trust of their parents they lose privileges that are similar to their offense. Lets say the 12 year old lied about doing his homework - then he is only allowed to do his homework with me from that point until trust has built up again. Eventually he may be able to go to his room again to do homework, but he's stuck at the kitchen table with me staring at him until we get to that place again.

Anyway, I found this in a different article from this month's magazine and now I am sick to my stomach...

It is about anger...

This is such incredible manipulation. Its just disgusting to me. I guess this is how they get the kids to thank them for beatings?

oh, here's the link. http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... e-garbage/

The line you bolded makes me absolutely sick. No child should have to live with a person who would make such a statement. It's absolutely disturbing.

[Love]

That article is disgusting! I hate the idea that girls have to always be sweet and can't be angry. Anger is just another emotion like happiness or anything else. These fundies would do well to read the parts of their Bible where Jesus got angry. Anger is not wrong it's only what we do when we're angry that has the potential to be. A parent needs to help their young children with developing minds and impulse control learn how to express their anger (among other emotions) appropriately, not suppress it. Hope there's a therapy fund.

It truly is disgusting. :( And not only the spanking part -but the tickling. Giggling from tickling is not a choice. It doesn't actually do anything with the anger, you just can't help but giggle. As a kid with a much older brother, i was 'tickle tortured' often (his word, not mine) and i absolutely HATE HATE HATE being tickled. it makes me EVEN :twisted: MORE :twisted: FREAKING :twisted: AGRY! :twisted:

My 9 yo can get really angry over small things (well, they are small to me, but clearly not to him). Does anyone have any good tips on kids dealing with anger? Some things we do are:

have him draw what makes him mad and then tear the drawing to pieces.

scream into his pillow

attack his pillows

dance - we start out moshing and end up in giggles quickly.

any other ideas out there?

[AnnoDomini]

I hate to resurrect old matters, but I just wanted to add that a study in 1999 found that children who are spanked are twice as likely to become substance abusers as well as more likely to have anxiety disorders, depression, and antisocial behavior. The study was published in the Canadian Medical Association journal by Dr. Harriet MacMillan.

Hmm. I was spanked. It wasn't abusive, and I'm not angry at them (except for that one time when my father did it when he was angry--OPPOSITE of what they both preached). However, I have had depression for years, and I've done a bit of self-harm.

I wonder how the Pearls and other fundies would advise parents who like to spank/be spanked in their sex play and thus don't feel comfortable doing it to their kids (like me).

[bananacat]

If my parents had done that to me, the only thing I would have learned is to keep the secret better and NEVER own up to it.

[bananacat]

I was spanked a grand total of two times. Once for running off in a crowded place without my parents. And once for running into the road. My dad said he hated doing it. But he said they were things that could've hurt me more severely than his hand. And that's why he did it. I never ran off without them or into the road again. I definitely think there are a few, very few, circumstances in which you should spank. I mean, had my dad not done that, I may have been hit by a car or kidnapped. I think with those as an alternative, I'm glad he spanked me. But any other time I misbehaved, I was put in time out, had privileges away or was grounded.

Do you really think that children can't understand danger unless they are physically hurt? You already knew what pain was. Your dad could have told you that running out into traffic would hurt more than other things that have already hurt you. I just don't buy it that kids can't learn about danger without being hit.

[bananacat]

Just that the psychological affect of 'do something wrong and you will experience physical pain'. It's true for adults, and it should be true for kids to some degree. If kids live in a world where no bad deed ever resulted in physical pain, they would end up trying all kinds of things where they've been warned of physical pain, but have no psychological reason not to try it. I had an uncle who was in the hospital for drug addiction, so it's the first thing that came to my mind.

You're wrong. You do not understand motivation and human behavior. The vast, vast majority of people do not make behavioral decisions based on a simple risk evaluation. Things like empathy, conformity, and social rules play a much bigger part. Time and time again, studies show that spanking doesn't teach kids that an action wrong, only that it's wrong to get caught. Kids can evaluate whether something is right or wrong. If you override that mental process and make them care only about physical punishment, they do not learn to determine what is right and wrong on their own. It turns them into authoritarian followers who will always need someone else to tell them what to do. Also, kids will experience pain from their choices even if it is not inflicted by adults. You climb a tree and fall out, and that hurts. You try walking around and fall down and it hurts. Luckily kids will get back up and try again no matter how many times they fall. And non-spanking punishment can inflict discomfort IN ADDITION TO teaching kids how to think critically about what is right and wrong.

Think about it. You've never murdered anyone. Even if there were absolutely 100% no chance of any punishment, in this life or the next one, I'll go out on a limb and assume that you still would choose not to murder anyone. Because you don't care just care about yourself. You care about not hurting others. You have an innate sense that hurting others is wrong. Punishment doesn't work the way you think it does.

[Want More Babies]

Keep it up Mike & Debi because every.single.time I hear of abuse happening at the hands of some parent who read your book, I am calling CPS.

Had a long, and lovely, chat today with CPS in Washington State. Told them all about your website, your book, TTUAC, and how Hana Grace Williams parents had your book and were *avid* fans. The wonderful lady I was chatting with made sure she got the info correct on your name, website, book, etc.

I will do this every.single.time until you are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail.

[jenny_islander]

I recently checked out the Pearls' book, To Train Up a Child. I could not even read much of it and I am tempted not to return the book. They spank 7 month old babies for willfull behavior. 7 months! They just know the baby is being defiant and asserting his or her will. It is crazy. They advocate being consistent, which is good, but THEY NEVER OVERLOOK ANYTHING. Every single act of not obeying happily and instantly needs correcting. They choose to make everything a battle. And they do it to other people's children! I was astounded. Why would anyone have them babysit if they had any clue about their methods? The Pearls even tell their friends ahead of time that they will discipline the children. And when they do, naturally it cures the child of defiance.

They claim they taught their children to respect water by either letting them fall into a pond or pool or by pushing them in. But all of them learned to swim by age four (probably would have been beaten if they hadn't) and none were afraid of water. Therefore, this will work for all children. Just let them fall in and see what happens.

When I read the book, I kept thinking that they would have beaten one of my kids to death. He was that difficult. Beatings would have been a daily event, multiple times a day. No way could he have survived the Pearls. He did the same things over and over, regardless of the consequences. Nothing worked; we tried isolation, spanking, removing privileges, reward systems, counseling, positive reinforcement, etc. The Pearls would have finally met the one child they could not cure!

Awful book.

If you return the book with a printout of articles related to the death of Lydia Schatz, the library may decide to remove it from the collection. I know that my local public library has removed books that turned out to have potentially lethal bad advice re herbal medicine or canning food; physical discipline may fall into the same category. Be sure to speak directly to a librarian, though--if you just stuff something into the book, they'll probably pull it and pitch it without reading it.

[Lillybee]

I have to admit that I did spank my oldest one for running into the street. But that being said, it was the only time any of my kids got any kind of physical punishment.

[Effie]

Keep it up Mike & Debi because every.single.time I hear of abuse happening at the hands of some parent who read your book, I am calling CPS.

Had a long, and lovely, chat today with CPS in Washington State. Told them all about your website, your book, TTUAC, and how Hana Grace Williams parents had your book and were *avid* fans. The wonderful lady I was chatting with made sure she got the info correct on your name, website, book, etc.

I will do this every.single.time until you are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail.

:clap: :clap: You do the right thing.

[hoipolloi]

Keep it up Mike & Debi because every.single.time I hear of abuse happening at the hands of some parent who read your book, I am calling CPS.

Had a long, and lovely, chat today with CPS in Washington State. Told them all about your website, your book, TTUAC, and how Hana Grace Williams parents had your book and were *avid* fans. The wonderful lady I was chatting with made sure she got the info correct on your name, website, book, etc.

I will do this every.single.time until you are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail.

Thank you & keep it up.

I posted this in a related thread but it looks little Sean Paddock's adoptive father has finally been brought to justice, 5 years after Sean died: http://www.theherald-nc.com/2011/07/24/ ... death.html

[hoipolloi]

Looks like the Pearls and the a$sholes who follow them are trying to head off the bad press over Hanna Williams' murder: https://www.facebook.com/NoGreaterJoyMinistries

Here are excerpts from some of the comments:

"Please, all of you who do not have any little ones at home that could be stolen away by CPS, please speak up in defense of the Pearls and their ministry! I am posting links on every discussion page and blog that I can find that is propagating this poison. If people only hear one side, they will believe it. I encourage people to read the articles on the ACTUAL NGJ page, not someone else's quote. That's why I link them directly to the Child Training page. Michael and Debi and their family are our family in Christ...."

"I was shocked the other day when several so called Christian friends took the side of the state , I ended up deleting several of them from my friends list. The book did not kill this precious gift, it was the parents who clearly should never of been parents to her...."

"The parents didn't read the book or this wouldn't have happened. No where in this book does it advocate abusing a child. The media is always looking for a scapegoat...."

And what does Michael Pearl say?

"If, as alleged, Hanna’s parents owned a copy of the book, it is obvious from these quotes and their actions, that they either have not read it or totally ignored its contents. The book repeated warns parents against abuse and emphasizes the parents’ responsibility to love and properly care for their children, which includes training them for success....The alleged presence of the book makes it no more responsible for Hanna’s death than the presence of a weight loss book in the home of an overweight person is responsible for their obesity. Its presence is actually recognition that there was a problem and obtaining the book was an effort to solve it. Unfortunately, if Hanna’s parents own a copy they chose to ignore (or twist) the contents of the book that could have corrected their poor parenting and prevented the abuse and her death."

Once again, the murderers just "did it wrong." At least Michael Pearl isn't laughing about the child's death this time, as he did when Lydia Schatz was murdered: pearlchildtraining.blogspot.com/2010/03/michael-pearl-laughs-at-critics.html

[Kitty]

If he'd been following these cases at all, he would have known that all of these children were adopted. Of course it wouldn't kill a child who very quickly learned to fear the consequences of misbehaving around abusive parents, but the Pearls advocate beating, starving, hosing down, and locking up children until they comply. So of course older, adopted children are the ones who are going to die since they have to adjust to a new home and don't really know things very well.

The parents followed Pearl's book to the letter. What they did wrong was following Pearl's book at all.