Fundies & Occult?

[OohLaLa]

So I've posted a few times, but mainly lurked and have learned a lot about why my crazy parents act the way they do. When I was growing up they were just super conservative and involved in an evangelical covenant church. But since I've left home, especially in the last year or two, they've become full on fundie. I've heard references to the Vision Forum, books by John MacArthur cover their house, they threw away practically all of their movies, stopped drinking entirely, etc. Visits have become a little strained because I hardly know what to talk to them about, pretty much everything they do now revolves around their church which I've been to a few times and have been utterly disgusted. But I'm rambling, I've come across a new subject of interest to them which I don't even know what to make of....

A few months ago when I visited I overheard them talking about apparently a woman in their church had asked for a prayer request for someone she knew that had cancer. Apparently what offended/concerned them about this prayer request was that the woman requested those present to also pray for "positive thoughts" for the cancer patient. This started my parents on a spiel about positive thoughts being so "New Age-y" and borderline occult. I don't even have words for how strange (to put it mildly) I find this.

Now just today, I gave my mom a foot massage because she has arthritis and is pretty much always sore (I'm almost done with school for cosmetology and as part of the program is nails, I've done a lot of pedicures and am very good at them). So I was talking a little bit about wanting to go back to school when I'm done and do massage therapy as well and that I would have to do some reflexology for her later because that's one of the many things we learn in the program. My dad then told me that reflexology was (again) borderline occult. I attempted to explain to him that you really can affect different parts of the body and nervous system just by massaging the feet because I have seen and experienced it. He was not to be convinced so I let that one drop. A short time later, I also noticed this book laying around--

http://www.amazon.com/Occult-Invasion-S ... 385&sr=1-6

The point of all this, can some of you who understand the fundie culture better than I please explain to me WTF they think the occult is? And "New Age" for that matter as well? I'm dying to understand this, but not willing to bring about a sermon from them for anything.

[CanadianHippie]

My experiences have been that for many overly conservative Christians "Occult" is something that affects the body, mind or life (like reflexology) that they know or think has origins from the "paganism beliefs systems" (i.e. originating from a non-Christian or an area of the world that is non-Christian), or anything that they believe (usually mistakenly) is supposedly some form of magic.

In you're case, I'm going to assume that your parents don't understand the physiological reasons that reflexology works so they label it occult and now have no reason to learn because it's "bad".

[OohLaLa]

My experiences have been that for many overly conservative Christians "Occult" is something that affects the body, mind or life (like reflexology) that they know or think has origins from the "paganism beliefs systems" (i.e. originating from a non-Christian or an area of the world that is non-Christian), or anything that they believe (usually mistakenly) is supposedly some form of magic.

In you're case, I'm going to assume that your parents don't understand the physiological reasons that reflexology works so they label it occult and now have no reason to learn because it's "bad".

I guess the pagan origins explanation makes sense. I'm confused as to how everything from reflexology to Harry Potter just gets branded as "occult." And also how something like "positive thinking" is bad. I can't even wrap my mind around how someone can go through life determined to find the evil in everything.

[kittypie]

As someone who used to hold similar views, I can tell you your parents believe that those things open the door for "evil" spirits to gain a foothold in one,s mind blah blah.

It is bizarre and it is bullpiles.

Nothing you can say will change their minds until they wake up themselves. If you want to avoid conflict, you want to avoid the subjecf

As it will only make them fret over you and pray earnestly for you in that regard. A lot.

[Deleted07]

Pretty much anything 'magic' beyond God's doing is considered occult. And anything else that tries to explain or predict the universe and life is also considered occult.

I received a DVD from a wacko ones telling me how they considered all these Harry Potters to be occult and such.

[Brainsample]

Reflexology draws from the same principles as Chinese medicine, and the foundational concept of it is Yin and Yang. Rather than understanding this as balance, many fundamentalists believe that it means relative morality philosophically, even though it likely only means that you ate too much of a yin thing (sugary deserts) and had not enough of a yang item (vegetables). If everything is based on homeostasis and balance, and because it is something that is not visible to the eye or because a Western medical doctor didn't conclude it, it must be evil. If you engage in it, it will seduce you with relative morality because it's based on an Eastern approach.

The energy vortex system is not directly visible (though testable), so people also tend to think that this is something in the "soulish" realm and therefore evil. As if things that go on in traditional medicine are wholesome and pure... Anything having to do with bioelectrical anything concerning the body is presumed to be within the realm of the occult as opposed to understanding that nerve bundles and cellular metabolism generate electrical energy (just like an EKG or an EEG).

[genericJname]

As someone who used to hold similar views, I can tell you your parents believe that those things open the door for "evil" spirits to gain a foothold in one,s mind blah blah

.

I agree. The way I grew up, I was always afraid that there were certain activities that would allow demonic forces a "threshold" in your life. BTW, at slumber parties, when girls would play "Light as a feather, stiff as a board" I would get so freaked out I would sit off in the corner of the room and pray. :oops:

[Deleted07]

Oh I have to admit, I was always told the Ouija boards were dangerous because you never know who or what you are contacting and that its a prime source for evil to get through and such, and also my sister had a freaky scenario with a Ouija, so its just something I never wanted to mess with. As ridiculous as it may seem. But thats probably more-so my own phobia and wives tale superstition, than based on anything religious on my part.

[kittypie]

.

I agree. The way I grew up, I was always afraid that there were certain activities that would allow demonic forces a "threshold" in your life. BTW, at slumber parties, when girls would play "Light as a feather, stiff as a board" I would get so freaked out I would sit off in the corner of the room and pray. :oops:

Lol,my sisters and I and friends played that one night in the basement and holy shit we levitated my sister and it scared the ever-lovin' out of us. :shock: :o (we were kids)/

[OohLaLa]

Reflexology draws from the same principles as Chinese medicine, and the foundational concept of it is Yin and Yang. Rather than understanding this as balance, many fundamentalists believe that it means relative morality philosophically, even though it likely only means that you ate too much of a yin thing (sugary deserts) and had not enough of a yang item (vegetables). If everything is based on homeostasis and balance, and because it is something that is not visible to the eye or because a Western medical doctor didn't conclude it, it must be evil. If you engage in it, it will seduce you with relative morality because it's based on an Eastern approach.

The energy vortex system is not directly visible (though testable), so people also tend to think that this is something in the "soulish" realm and therefore evil. As if things that go on in traditional medicine are wholesome and pure... Anything having to do with bioelectrical anything concerning the body is presumed to be within the realm of the occult as opposed to understanding that nerve bundles and cellular metabolism generate electrical energy (just like an EKG or an EEG).

Thank you very much, this helps a lot. Do you think a lot of it also boils down to a fear of the unknown? They can't see it or they don't understand it and therefore conclude that it must be evil because that's easier for them to swallow?

[OohLaLa]

Lol,my sisters and I and friends played that one night in the basement and holy shit we levitated my sister and it scared the ever-lovin' out of us. :shock: :o (we were kids)/

I was never allowed to go to those types of slumber parties. :(

My parents had such a deathly fear of oujia boards even when they weren't this extreme that once when a movie came on the tv (in a hotel, we never really watched tv at our house) where they were using one, my mother jumped across a bed and scrambled for the remote to change the channel. Just a mention of one makes her shudder. This of course excited a morbid curiosity in me-- definitely not their intention!

[Lainey]

Thank you very much, this helps a lot. Do you think a lot of it also boils down to a fear of the unknown? They can't see it or they don't understand it and therefore conclude that it must be evil because that's easier for them to swallow?

I think so. It's not just fundies, either. My fundie-lite friend thinks that magicians use real magic somehow. I expect weird stuff like this from her, but one of my other (non-religious) friends can't be convinced magicians don't use real magic, either. Why? Because they don't understand it.

Also...I'm afraid of Ouija boards, and I'm an atheist. :?

[clibbyjo]

Thank you very much, this helps a lot. Do you think a lot of it also boils down to a fear of the unknown? They can't see it or they don't understand it and therefore conclude that it must be evil because that's easier for them to swallow?

YES. Of course they can't see Jesus but they accpet him on blind faith,so again their logic is flawed but what is new. :think:

[Avalondaughter]

I think so. It's not just fundies, either. My fundie-lite friend thinks that magicians use real magic somehow. I expect weird stuff like this from her, but one of my other (non-religious) friends can't be convinced magicians don't use real magic, either. Why? Because they don't understand it.

Also...I'm afraid of Ouija boards, and I'm an atheist. :?

I"m a pretty extreme agnostic, but I have had some SCARY experiences with Ouija boards. Maybe our subconscious is subtly moving the pointer in way we don't realize, but I hate to think I have such a mean subconscious!

[pixydust]

ITA with everything that Brainsample said. If it's Eastern in any way, it is "occult" and "worshipping the devil", including yoga, reflexology, accupuncture, accupressure, fortune cookies, even knowing your zodiac signs!

When I was a teenager I had a really bad headache at work and one of the girls that I worked with used accupressure to get rid of it.....I was so scared (but I let her do it, that sucker was the early signs I get for migraines!) and I made sure to never tell my family!

Oh, and ouiji boards? Those will cause demon posession, you know! :roll:

[Brainsample]

Thank you very much, this helps a lot. Do you think a lot of it also boils down to a fear of the unknown? They can't see it or they don't understand it and therefore conclude that it must be evil because that's easier for them to swallow?

Absolutely.

When I was in college a zillion years ago, I had many people including instructors suggest that I study Therapeutic Touch for my research project. I did my senior year over a summer, so it seriously crunched my time, so I did a previously validated job satisfaction tool instead, but I bought the book. I don't know what the hell that stuff with mandalas was about at the time, though I understand now that it's nothing more than brain wave entrainment to put a person into an altered state of consciousness. Therapeutic Touch (TT) works better when you're in an altered state of consciousness. (You can do that through all sorts of means like prayer and music or driving the car.) I would later learn that TT was the same thing that people went to see Franz Anton Mesmer for, and he was essentially doing the same thing that acupuncture does. All of these techniques slow down brainwaves. Today, it is observable physiologically with EEG.

In the TT book, to help demonstrate where the chakras are, Krieger says to take two toilet paper rolls, take wires (like coat hangers) and bend them in a pulled straight N shape so that they hang through the paper rolls with the wires shooting out parallel to the ground horizontally and away from you, but you can support the wires by not touching them and holding them via only holding the vertical tubes. (The piece of wire that bends horizontally back toward you supports the top of the wire where it rests on the top of the tube.) The wires dangle freely in the tube, so that you don't direct where they go but are holding them without touching the wires. Then have someone lay down flat on a bed or sofa, and hold each wire in each hand and scan from head to toe with the two wires which you try to make parallel to one another as you move from the person's head to toe, just about 6 -12 inches above the person's body. When you get to a chakra (an area where there is a great deal of bioelectrical energy generated by the person's body, just like the brain makes EEG voltage and just like the heart generates an EKG), the mostly parallel wires will either cross, or they will repel. When you move off from over the chakra, the wires will go parallel or will bob around in the tube again. Over each chakra, this happens.

Now, I had my mom and dad do this with me because I figured that this was bordering on weird. We prayed first and asked for wisdom. (I'm being a good Christian and a good scientist, right?) My dad was perfectly okay with it, because as a surveyor, he uses dousing to find metal or water lines in the ground. (When he did the coat hanger thing, his wires bent away from one another, and when either Mom or I did it, our wires would intersect.) My mom said that "Joe Shmoe," the name of some big deal evangelist would say that we were all going to hell for even doing this.

Now, did I dabble in the occult, or did I find spots on the body where energy flows out from neural tissue bundles? Are acupuncturists messing with your soul with their needles, or are they putting metal into the bioelectric spots on the body, these vortices generated by nerve tissue which carries electricity through the body? Does foot reflexology stimulate the nerves in the feet which are connected to the whole body by the nerve network and brain? Does the iris of the eye change in response to the body's condition (iridology) like a map of the body (like my defrag map of boxes on my computer when I run Smart Defrag), or does an iridologist look into the soul/spirit of a person and do some kind of voodoo to get information about health? Foot reflexology can yield the same info, because the areas on the feet that correspond with a body part will feel different to the touch (not voodoo, but areas of the foot that correspond to problem organs will be hard or will feel "crunchy" under the skin or will feel extra sensitive to the person). When you get to the thyroid area, and it's sensitive, and it feels to your touch like there are little seeds under the person's skin in that area, when you ask the person if they have a thyroid disorder and you're right, does this mean that you're reading their mind or talking to the devil? Or if you work the hip and knee area of a person's foot which is "crunchy" and sensitive" when you feel it, and when they get up after 30 minutes of reflexology specifically to that are and they have 50% more range of motion in their hip which is arthritic, did you put a wicked spell on them, or did you somehow stimulate the nerve network in the hip?

Before we had EKGs, we knew that the heart would beat certain ways, but we would have to do vivisection to see it. Berne and Levy figured out EKGs and heart physiology, and Dale Dubin taught physicians how to read EKGs. Now we can use electrodes to see a real time reflection of the heart beat. 20 years before then, people would have thought that this Western medicine standard was voodoo.

They can't see it, it seems strange, anyone can do it, so it must be evil.

[Brainsample]

That said, if a religious culture stumbles upon this physiologic occurrence, and they decide that within their culture that they want to ascribe to and describe the phenomenon using their religious system, does that make the physiologic occurrence evil?

Is the solar plexus an evil invention of evil Hindus, or did they stumble on to this bioelectrical energy and interpret it according to their mindset? If I believe that it is a purely physiologic thing but find that some of what they say is pretty consistent but describe it differently, does that mean that I'm converting to Hinduism?

Back before we had EEGs, EKGs, hemodynamic monitoring, and diagnostic testing, doctors had to be much better at physical assessment. All they had was stuff like observing the pulse and the color of the mucous membranes. But somehow, when a Chinese practitioner looks at the tongue or assesses the pulse, they're doing something evil. But it's perfectly okay to go to a nuclear medicine testing facility and drink a contrast medium. (Maybe it's an evil witches brew.)

[Queen of Serpents]

I"m a pretty extreme agnostic, but I have had some SCARY experiences with Ouija boards. Maybe our subconscious is subtly moving the pointer in way we don't realize, but I hate to think I have such a mean subconscious!

If it helps, I think some part is you and the entire group subconsciously moving it, and maybe one part one jerk (me) trying to freak people out. I had played it once before at a summer camp and then it college me and some other freshmen snuck into on of the empty dark dance studios and were playing with a glow in the dark one. Once it started to move a friend of mine started crying and ran out of the building. We tried to reassure her that it was just a party game and she was safe but she wouldn't listen. I stayed behind I tried to see if I could trick people. I have a very light touch so I was trying to make up a story about a woman that was murdered in a canoe with a chainsaw. Very hard to spell that out! But I scared a good number of people and then went out to reassure my friend, for the fifth time, that she was not going to be attacked by ghosts.

[Brainsample]

Won't touch an Ouija board. Whole different thing.