NLQ - "We're not freejinger" - mods going a little crazy

[Deleted04]

I was the one who originally posted the Angel vs Vykie thread. I had so many different feelings about it. I regret being persuaded into deleting it, but I also felt bad about starting such a firestorm. I was horrified at some of the things Vykie had done and said to her daughter. And it was weird how she presented herself as this loving and caring mother on her website, but completely trash her daughter on her blog. Both of which were public. And it made me sick to my stomach to listen to all her interviews about how she gave up the Quiverfull lifestyle because of Angel. Yeah, right. I spoke with Angel about it, (through comments on her blog) and her response was more mature and sane than her mother's. Angel knows her mother is insane, but she didn't want to lay everything out for the whole world to see. Anyway, I deleted the thread and stopped reading NLQ because I REALLY dislike Vykie. Angel is cool though.

[Brainsample]

I lurked through the whole of this, and as an objective observer (no real feelings regarding NLQ/Angel/Vyckie previously or now) I want to say this is a very one-sided account -- which it would be if you got it from Vyckie, so this is not aimed at you Brainsample.

...

It was all really weird. We'll never know the truth of it, but I don't support the theory that Angel was "acting out" in a way "typical for someone her age" based on what we could see or what Vyckie was describing.

Constance, this isn't aimed at you but is something I'd like to communicate for my own benefit.

I very deliberately didn't take one on this issue and stayed away from it because I know how horrible it is to have outsiders try to insert themselves into an already troubled relationship, something I suffered within my own family of origin. I wasn't actively reading here on FJ or on NLQ when these things transpired. I often listen to parents who are struggling with their emotions about what their children are doing, but I step back from them. I deliberately step back from making any kind of value judgements about these matters.

That said and approaching this from my own experience with involved several varieties of abuse that went unrecognized, misunderstood, mischaracterized, and unaddressed, or ineffectively addressed, I consider "acting out" to be a healthy response to abuse.

We do not know what goes on in an individual family, and sometimes, we don't even know what goes on in our own family.

I will also say that it is my own experience that the moms who leave patriarchy have terribly difficult issues with control, and there's a great deal of desire to control circumstances. I think that the whole package of QF/P is likely initially appealing to women who are controlling because it gives them the illusion that they can have near-perfect control over their own circumstances. And for those who are not controlling, the system will change your expectations, because it is all about deriving worth and peace from adequate performance. The system is focused around parental convenience.

When women leave, I think that they just have a desire to leave the system and their own abuse, but there is very little benefit for the moms to give up the control that they (think they) have over their families. It is also a great deal of work, and you literally end up rewiring pathways in your brain when you heal. Many are willing to do all the work, but many also only get out of the system just far enough to feel a little better. Working to get better and to give up the controlling mindset does not come with instant gratification and reinforcement but seems more like punishment for a long time. Some will never be pushed by their circumstances to do the harder work. Many will just get far enough away from the system to seek their own comfort, and they will not work to seek healing for their children by changing their own behavior. And it also takes a long time to sort the personal stuff out from the religious stuff, if people are even willing or able to do it.

I have no idea whether that is the personal case with Vyckie or not and ended up on the phone with her for an unrelated issue at the time. I declined to even read about the matter.

The only reason I even stated anything about it here was in hope that my very brief description of events would be found adequate and satisfactory to the curious readers here, hopefully sparing a more involved discussion of the matter, creating additional stress and pressure for both Vyckie and Angel. I don't want to see anything hinder their healing and their relationship, again, because I know personally how negatively that outside interference from others affects these kinds of relationship problems. The situation has been troubled enough.

But that's me, interpreting this through my own grid of experience.

I don't take sides on these family related matters.

[Crackedeggs]

Brain, you have hit that nail right on the head. You don't realize how it has affected your brain until something happens that forces you too

[Kimerical]

IBoth the new blog and the new forum seem to be much more tightly controlled these days and those in disagreement with the mods seem to be brushed off with a reminder that NLQ is 'not free jinger'. :roll:

Successful board is successful! :pray:

It gave us loldougs and rolfbotkins.. and now we are 'not NLQ'.

:clap:

[keeperrox]

Successful board is successful! :pray:

It gave us loldougs and rolfbotkins.. and now we are 'not NLQ'.

:clap:

Where have you been?!?!?! :lol:

[Muffy]

Ah, yes - NLQ.

That's another place I lurked for awhile. At the beginning, as Vyckie and Laura were first sharing their stories, I was fascinated by what they'd been through. Reading about their experiences was like getting sucked into an old-timey soap opera "serial."

But somewhere around the time of Laura's disappearance, which also seemed to coincide with when Vyckie hit the big time (appearing on the Joy Behar show and whatnot), the site lost something for me. I'm still not sure what that was. I guess I had questions about both Vyckie's and Laura's truthfulness. One thing I always found puzzling was how they both portrayed their (ex-) husbands. Laura's ex was painted as horribly controlling and awful. Likewise Vyckie's ex, Warren. Matter of fact, Warren came across in Vyckie's writings as so utterly and completely unlikeable, so totally wacked-out and dysfunctional, that it was impossible to understand why she'd EVER gotten together with him in the first place, let alone attempted to build a patriarchal life with him. It just made no sense. I know that pretty much every human being has some redeeming quality, but in all of Vyckie's portrayals of Warren, she never gave even a hint of what made Warren attractive enough to her to have all those kids with him. He just seemed...mentally ill, peevish, abusive, and downright unappealing.

And yet, both Laura and Vyckie seemed perfectly OK with letting their children spend time with these men. I know that custody laws are what they are, but in Laura's case, she basically ran away from her kids, leaving them in the full-time care of her (supposedly abusive) ex. What mother endangers her children's welfare like that? If her husband were really this rotten terrible person, why was it OK for her kids to be left for him to raise alone?

Likewise Warren. Later, I think, Vyckie alluded to how Warren has supposedly improved in his parenting, but throughout most of her story, he certainly doesn't seem like anyone who could handle singlehandedly watching over a gaggle of kids, some of whom are still pretty young and vulnerable.

So either Vyckie and Laura have portrayed their ex-husbands in a less-than-truthful light, or else they are really irresponsible moms. At least, that's how I saw it, and that's why I started to feel really bugged by their stories.

Then there were all those pictures of Vyckie and her kids that adorned the original NLQ header. I'm not sure what gave Vyckie the idea to parade her children around like that, but those photos bothered me too.

So did her fundraising efforts. Remember her "No Longer Eating Crappy Pizza" button? What was up with that? Why did she think she and her family were somehow this special charitable case?

I dunno - y'all have done a better job articulating your thoughts about NLQ, but I kept having this vibe that something was not right. It was like Vyckie continued to see herself as an authority and role model, only now for the "other side" of the movement she used to promote. I agree with Brainsample. Vyckie just was not at a good place to take on the role of spokeswoman. I don't read over there much anymore.

[Guest Anonymous]

That said and approaching this from my own experience with involved several varieties of abuse that went unrecognized, misunderstood, mischaracterized, and unaddressed, or ineffectively addressed, I consider "acting out" to be a healthy response to abuse.

I appreciate your perspective. For me though, having worked in the mental health field, the term 'acting out' has been so misused for so long that it feels to me like it is psychiatric labelling of behaviour that is equivalent of a parent describing a child's tantrum as 'showing off'. My understanding of Angel's behaviour back then was that she was starting to express to her mother that her childhood sucked, because it really had. What we knew about Angel's life then was bad enough, but Vyckie has recently posted a blog acknowledging that she joined in with Vyckie's dad in giving her worse beatings that the one shown in the Judge Adams video.

The only reason I even stated anything about it here was in hope that my very brief description of events would be found adequate and satisfactory to the curious readers here, hopefully sparing a more involved discussion of the matter, creating additional stress and pressure for both Vyckie and Angel. I don't want to see anything hinder their healing and their relationship, again, because I know personally how negatively that outside interference from others affects these kinds of relationship problems. The situation has been troubled enough.

I agree that the situation is a troubled one, but really, this board is quite well known for its in-depth analysis of the things others write in public spaces. Presenting a 'brief description of events' from a position where you openly state that you have actively avoided reading anything about the issue, was never really going to fly here. I wish the very best for Angel, and I hope that she won't base her future decisions entirely on anything she reads on a snark board on the internet. But I do think that children and young adults coming out of patriarchal situations deserve the very best future they can make for themselves and I hope that Angel is very soon able to find sources of support outside her family (ideally including a damn good therapist) so that she can process what she went through safely and without having to provide 'victim support' to either of the parents who messed up her life in the first place.

[Constance Vigilance]

I will also say that it is my own experience that the moms who leave patriarchy have terribly difficult issues with control, and there's a great deal of desire to control circumstances. I think that the whole package of QF/P is likely initially appealing to women who are controlling because it gives them the illusion that they can have near-perfect control over their own circumstances. And for those who are not controlling, the system will change your expectations, because it is all about deriving worth and peace from adequate performance. The system is focused around parental convenience.

When women leave, I think that they just have a desire to leave the system and their own abuse, but there is very little benefit for the moms to give up the control that they (think they) have over their families. It is also a great deal of work, and you literally end up rewiring pathways in your brain when you heal. Many are willing to do all the work, but many also only get out of the system just far enough to feel a little better. Working to get better and to give up the controlling mindset does not come with instant gratification and reinforcement but seems more like punishment for a long time. Some will never be pushed by their circumstances to do the harder work. Many will just get far enough away from the system to seek their own comfort, and they will not work to seek healing for their children by changing their own behavior. And it also takes a long time to sort the personal stuff out from the religious stuff, if people are even willing or able to do it.

QFT.

Vyckie has recently posted a blog acknowledging that she joined in with Vyckie's dad in giving her worse beatings that the one shown in the Judge Adams video.

Sweet Jesus. I never want to hear anything negative from Vyckie about Angel ever ever again.

[Crackedeggs]

Oh she did, did she?

When I was having my brief sojourn over there, Vyckie befriended me, me having remembered her from old mailining lists on this stuff and having mentioned that. I'm guessing that stroked her ego.

As I have mentioned, I never got seriously into the child training aspects of this movement. I did dabble in them, but nothing like what the full blown cases did. I think dabbling did enough harm as it was. However, I was full on stunned by a large group of younger women who basically body slammed me over there, to force me to admit I was a hardcore " abuser" and they barely knew me. I think now they were reacting to the Vyckie/Angel thing.

I can see where it will be hard for women and children coming out of this, as the kids grow up, to find a happy line of normalcy when it comes to disciplining their kids, dealing with adolescent sexuality and separation in ideology and behavior, and for harder core blanket trainers, even the development of personality in little ones. People who were abused may become abusers of a different sort, or may go the opposite direction and not guide their kids at all. It' simply CANT be pretty.

I know in my own case, the dirty laundry washed out when I found out my girl was sexually active and had been lying to me for a year about it. My inner fundie was furious that she had failed to be " better" than I was, or " good as" my ideals... my recently emerged liberal "freed" self was furious that she had lied to me, when I'd offered to get her birth control. She was furious that I was furious... oh what a mess. We are doing a lot better now, but that basically means I have all but completely let go of the reins. Many would say that is bad too.. but it is what works for us.

I can't imagine how messed up a family that had been in as deep as Vyckie's would be.. Poor kids. Vyckie needs to be out of the public eye and working on her own shit, and take her kids out with her.

[apple1]

The entire purpose (noun LOL) and goal of parenting is to gradually and consistently raise your children so that they eventually do not need the parents anymore, but rather, become independent adults.

Some parents never get this.

ETA I am the mom of 2 now-adult women.

[Crackedeggs]

The entire purpose (noun LOL) and goal of parenting is to gradually and consistently raise your children so that they eventually do not need the parents anymore, but rather, become independent adults.

Some parents never get this.

ETA I am the mom of 2 now-adult women.

And the entire purpose of the Fundie Patriarchal.QF movement is to raise your kids to think like you say you do - to be breeding machines for Christ. Diametrical opposites.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sweet Jesus. I never want to hear anything negative from Vyckie about Angel ever ever again.

Sorry: I need to correct an error I made here: Vyckie joined in with Angel's dad Warren (not Vyckie's dad) in beating Angel.

The post is here: nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/03/to-my-shame-i-think-i-might-understand-hillary-adams-mother/

[apple1]

And the entire purpose of the Fundie Patriarchal.QF movement is to raise your kids to think like you say you do - to be breeding machines for Christ. Diametrical opposites.

I'm sure you are right.

No wonder their outcomes are so poor. (Ex-ATI sites illustrate this well). Their goal is destined to failure, with only a few exceptions.

[Constance Vigilance]

Heh. apple1, I read what you meant rather than what you wrote.

[apple1]

Heh. apple1, I read what you meant rather than what you wrote.

I don't know what you are saying.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know what you are saying.

I think Constance meant that statement to me; ie she read my original post as referring to 'Vyckie and Warren' and not 'Vyckie and Vyckie's dad'.

[Constance Vigilance]

Aagh, sorry. Yes. I read the original statement as what anniec meant to post instead of what she did post. I don't know where apple1 came into it.

[apple1]

Aagh, sorry. Yes. I read the original statement as what anniec meant to post instead of what she did post. I don't know where apple1 came into it.

ok

[Guest Anonymous]

A quick, but heart-rending post from Angel: http://angelreneene.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... hadow.html

She so missed her brother when she was not allowed to see him after the fallout with Vyckie. I do wonder how much of her 'reconciliation' with Vyckie is about wanting to be reunited with her siblings.