Fundie lite family wedding today

[Jeff]

Where I am, Anglo-Catholicism is the general undercurrent of the Episcopal diocese, though more pronounced in some parishes than others. These parishes are certainly pretty "high" theologically and liturgically, but would hardly get into telling wives to submit any more than husbands -- probably at least in part because it'd be hard to decide who does the submitting in a church-sponsored civil union!

[Sola]

Where I am, Anglo-Catholicism is the general undercurrent of the Episcopal diocese, though more pronounced in some parishes than others. These parishes are certainly pretty "high" theologically and liturgically, but would hardly get into telling wives to submit any more than husbands -- probably at least in part because it'd be hard to decide who does the submitting in a church-sponsored civil union!

Oh there's been a few lately. There was a big stink kicked up last year, it was in the newspapers here, over one minister saying that wives should submit. I do wonder if it is in more conservative churches here, that the influence from the USA is coming forward a little. I hope not, though I suspect that those churches to who do teach that are a tiny minority.

The first time I went to my husband's church, the one of the wedding on Friday, I found it to be very conservative compared to the one I grew up in. I was surprised though that Lisa (my niece) had decided to have those readings and to 'obey'. I'm wondering if she just felt a more traditional service was more 'weddingy'.

[Jeff]

It definitely does vary a lot by geography...but still, I did find it funny when your fundies turned out to be...Anglo-Catholics, which are such a tame bunch here in Chicago. I do know there have been some Anglo-Catholics within the various Continuing Anglican movements, but heretofore my awareness of Anglican fundamentalism has mostly been of it as a predominantly Low Church movement, so this is rather curious. If I may ask, what country is this, and is this church part of the normal Anglican Communion province there or a separatist group?

[SunnyAndrsn]

It was yesterday Sassy, and we had booze thankfully! Although I am not sure my head is so thankful today. I rarely drink, no objection to it I just don't do it very often, so I'm not used to it. I had 4 glasses of wine, 1 bucksfizz and a glass of champagne for the toasts, my head was pretty sore this morning!

What's in a bucksfizz?

[Sola]

It definitely does vary a lot by geography...but still, I did find it funny when your fundies turned out to be...Anglo-Catholics, which are such a tame bunch here in Chicago. I do know there have been some Anglo-Catholics within the various Continuing Anglican movements, but heretofore my awareness of Anglican fundamentalism has mostly been of it as a predominantly Low Church movement, so this is rather curious. If I may ask, what country is this, and is this church part of the normal Anglican Communion province there or a separatist group?

I'm in the UK - home of Anglicanism!

The church was up until last year part of the normal Anglican communion. However recently it has become Anglo-Catholic. To be honest, having been to services there before it hasn't changed that much. It has closer ties with Catholicism now, obviously, but services previously had Catholic leanings with it being High Church - now it just seems they are more openly displaying those links. As far as I can remember (having only been to a handful of services there in the past), this particular church has always been far more conservative than the church which I attended. Even my husband, who did used to attend there regularly until his mid twenties, has said it always has been more conservative and as other denominations and other individual churches have become more liberal and accepting, change within this one has been slow. I was talking with my MiL earlier (she still attends) and apparently the change came about in this church due to the disagreements over female clergy in the CofE. Now they are affiliated with the Ordinariate of the Catholic church but are still generally known as Anglo-Catholic. I'll try and find out some more from my MiL as to what happened - I know at the time it led to some members leaving.

I will say though that our fundies are nowhere near as fundie as the ones in the USA! We don't have that many fundies at all really, as I said this church would possibly be considered 'fundie-lite' even though it IS very conservative for the UK. Our other main fundies here are Exclusive Brethren which are quite local to me, and a few other Brethren/Anabaptist types scattered around the country.

@ Sunny

What's in a bucksfizz?

Champagne and fresh orange juice.

[tropaka]

I don't think I've ever heard of High Anglican/ Anglo Catholic, and definitely not Catholic churches being much into the tee totalling line(?)

[Sola]

I don't think I've ever heard of High Anglican/ Anglo Catholic, and definitely not Catholic churches being much into the tee totalling line(?)

Here you go;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Catholicism

I don't think many churches are 'dry' here in the UK. As long as alcohol is only taken in moderation, it seems to be fine.

[lawfulevil]

I was raised Episcopalian and believe me when I say they can be fundies too. They were threatening to split off (many parishes in this diocese were) during all the hurrah about Bishop Robinson. I think they'd die of shock if they saw a woman priest. The people in my parish hated gays, distrusted minorities, had hordes of obnoxious anti-choice bumper stickers on their car, and the priest wouldn't SAY to vote for Republicans but he'd certainly hint at it. All youth group events were heavily chaperoned despite there being 2 boys in it, it was mostly girls. The youth group went to the same kinds of concerts and events (including revival type events) that you'd expect from fundies, the church bookstore had the Pearls' books in it... we even had our QF families, though the largest only had 11 and 8 children respectively. Birth control isn't frowned on by the church itself but it was certainly a "less acceptable" choice in our parish. I have 3 siblings and our family size was about average, lots of 4 and 5 kid families.

Service itself was the very most formal form and Sunday school wasn't held during but AFTER church, so if you were too old for the nursery you were stuck being bored absolutely senseless, doing Jesus calisthenics. (Sit down, stand up, kneel.... repeat!) Then it was off to Sunday school where a poorly educated Biblical literalist would make you do macaroni art about the ark... or later, talk to you about abstinence! Nothing is more fun than an old married couple telling you about the joys that wait for you in marriage if you put off sex (cue lots of 12 year olds looking at each other with growing horror).

Dress code for service was, even for the children, very formal. Suits or long dresses with hose. Not a pair of blue jeans to be seen.

Before this church my family went through a bunch of equally dreadful home churches, and my parents were definitely fundies.

[xDreamerx]

I guess I was just a bit taken aback--"What Anglicans are fundie? Does that mean I was raised one in most people's estimation? I didn't think I was..." but I was raised in the low church so it's much different apparently. I think all of the Anglican Church in Canada would be considered low church, but I'm not 100% sure. Would the Royal Wedding be an example of proper HC Anglicanism or is that even more relaxed that what you experienced Sola? I'm just curious because the kind of...I guess hair splitting and nuances of the English Church kind of fascinate me.

[Sola]

I guess I was just a bit taken aback--"What Anglicans are fundie? Does that mean I was raised one in most people's estimation? I didn't think I was..." but I was raised in the low church so it's much different apparently. I think all of the Anglican Church in Canada would be considered low church, but I'm not 100% sure. Would the Royal Wedding be an example of proper HC Anglicanism or is that even more relaxed that what you experienced Sola? I'm just curious because the kind of...I guess hair splitting and nuances of the English Church kind of fascinate me.

I think Anglicanism can cover the whole spectrum, just as other denominations can. I think there is a misconception that all Anglicanism is the same, it isn't and no two churches will be the same. As a general, High Church is more conservative and Low Church is more liberal, although within High Church there is also Broad Church (confusing yes!) which is more liberal. Then within High Church there is Anglo-Catholic and of course there are those High Churches which have linked to Rome.

My experience growing up was in a Low Church. My dad was a minister and even though he was more conservative than me, he was fairly liberal in his views. Our church was very much the type were nobody would judge you, privately they might disagree with you (thinking homosexuality, living together etc), but within the church itself, it was open to all and there were no sermons (that I can remember) condemning you. I remember a family friend who got pregnant out of wedlock; a few people said, 'Congrats! Are you getting married?' but there was no, 'OMG! You sinner!!!ELEVENTY!! You must get married NOW!!' from anyone.

My husband's experience was a little different. He attended the church which the wedding was at. When his older sister got pregnant at 17 she was basically marched up the aisle. Some of that was more pressure from his dad who was of the opinion that babies come AFTER the marriage and never before. But those views came from the teachings of the church. This was 30 years ago though, but even so in the church I went to, a pregnancy out of marriage wouldn't have led to such drastic action even 30 years ago.

As for the royal wedding, I would presume it was High Church Anglican, not Anglo-Catholic (the establishment here still has issues with Catholicism even though the official position is that they don't - it's only in the last month have they decided that it's OK for the monarch to be Catholic if they wish). I didn't watch the Royal Wedding (I am an anti-royalist so went out of my way to avoid it), but I would suspect that the service was liberalised a little so as not to alienate the public.

[julie paradox]

they haven't even decided that, only that it's ok for them to marry one.

Can't have the head of the church being subject to the head of a different church ;-) That's where the Stuarts went so horribly wrong and why they made the law in the first place.

Though how they'd get round the RCs wanting children of the marriage brought up RC I'm not sure.

[Triplet3]

The thought of the Church of England being fundie makes me absolutely die of laughter, mainly because of 'The Vicar of Dibley' and stereotypes of the CofE, but also my experiences of growing up Anglican. Sure, the very High Church Anglicans and the Anglo-Catholics are conservative, but the great majority of the others are pretty liberal - incredibly so if compared directly to fundies. The church I grew up in (and which my parents are still involved in) is in the middle between high and low, and is not fundie in the slightest. The vicar is a woman, hell would freeze over before sermons would mention abortion or condemn university education, single mothers, women wearing trousers etc. etc., people aren't judgmental, a couple of years ago it held a special evensong service to celebrate the life of Charles Darwin...the list goes on.

In terms of liturgy the royal wedding service was pretty much normal CofE. It used the standard 1966 modification of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer wedding service, which leaves out the mention of obeying in the vows amongst other things (though if couples using that service want the 'obey' vow put in, they can). I'm pretty sure the royals didn't use that version 'so as not to alienate the public', though, but because it is much more commonly used than is the 1662 service. Also it preserves much of the beautiful language of the 1662 service but has the more modern theology of the contemporary Common Worship service, which I'm sure made it more to William and Catherine's taste. Probably the majority of CofE weddings today use the Common Worship service, but the 1966 version is not uncommon. I don't think many people use the full, unabridged 1662 service nowadays.

[Sola]

The thought of the Church of England being fundie makes me absolutely die of laughter, mainly because of 'The Vicar of Dibley' and stereotypes of the CofE, but also my experiences of growing up Anglican. Sure, the very High Church Anglicans and the Anglo-Catholics are conservative, but the great majority of the others are pretty liberal - incredibly so if compared directly to fundies. The church I grew up in (and which my parents are still involved in) is in the middle between high and low, and is not fundie in the slightest. The vicar is a woman, hell would freeze over before sermons would mention abortion or condemn university education, single mothers, women wearing trousers etc. etc., people aren't judgmental, a couple of years ago it held a special evensong service to celebrate the life of Charles Darwin...the list goes on.

In terms of liturgy the royal wedding service was pretty much normal CofE. It used the standard 1966 modification of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer wedding service, which leaves out the mention of obeying in the vows amongst other things (though if couples using that service want the 'obey' vow put in, they can). I'm pretty sure the royals didn't use that version 'so as not to alienate the public', though, but because it is much more commonly used than is the 1662 service. Also it preserves much of the beautiful language of the 1662 service but has the more modern theology of the contemporary Common Worship service, which I'm sure made it more to William and Catherine's taste. Probably the majority of CofE weddings today use the Common Worship service, but the 1966 version is not uncommon. I don't think many people use the full, unabridged 1662 service nowadays.

That was similar to my experience growing up, ours as I said was a low church and pretty liberal. As were the other churches that I went to. When I first went to my husband's church with him (which was prior to us marrying and we decided which church to marry in), that was the first time I had been to a high church and it was a bit of WTF is this. Now it is becoming more overtly Catholic - there were several references to Mary during the wedding service - though it probably isn't as Catholic as a true RC church. Although I have only been to my husband's old church a handful of times over the years, it has struck me as how it has seemingly got more conservative gradually over the years, I wonder if that is because it has gone Anglo-Catholic.

Though despite all this I suspect even that church would seem entirely liberal compared to the churches spoken about on here. The US seems to take fundism to a whole new level!