Cardinal Burke has some words of wisdom on Islam

[47of74]

Ugh.  Cardinal Trump Burke had some <sarcasm>words of wisdom</sarcasm> regarding Islam that he had to share with the world;

ncronline.org/news/world/cardinal-burke-says-christian-nations-west-must-counter-islamic-influx

Quote

Amid heightened tensions over ISIS-fueled terror attacks and anti-Muslim rhetoric, a prominent U.S. cardinal says Islam “wants to govern the world” and Americans must decide if they are going to reassert “the Christian origin of our own nation” in order to avoid that fate.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Rome-based prelate known as an outspoken conservative and critic of Pope Francis’ reformist approach, said in an interview on July 20 that Islam is “fundamentally a form of government.”

While Catholic teaching recognizes that all Abrahamic faiths worship the same God, Burke criticized Catholic leaders who, in an effort to be tolerant, have a tendency “to simply think that Islam is a religion like the Catholic faith or the Jewish faith.”

"That simply is not objectively the case,” he said.

 If you asked me for ten reasons why I'm an ex-Catholic, guys like Mr. Burke here would be reason number one. 

[Alicja]

Ugh.  Cardinal Trump Burke had some words of wisdom regarding Islam that he had to share with the world;

ncronline.org/news/world/cardinal-burke-says-christian-nations-west-must-counter-islamic-influx

Amid heightened tensions over ISIS-fueled terror attacks and anti-Muslim rhetoric, a prominent U.S. cardinal says Islam “wants to govern the world” and Americans must decide if they are going to reassert “the Christian origin of our own nation” in order to avoid that fate.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Rome-based prelate known as an outspoken conservative and critic of Pope Francis’ reformist approach, said in an interview on July 20 that Islam is “fundamentally a form of government.”

While Catholic teaching recognizes that all Abrahamic faiths worship the same God, Burke criticized Catholic leaders who, in an effort to be tolerant, have a tendency “to simply think that Islam is a religion like the Catholic faith or the Jewish faith.”

"That simply is not objectively the case,” he said.

 If you asked me for ten reasons why I'm an ex-Catholic, guys like Mr. Burke here would be reason number one. 



...my dude, Catholicism is also a "form of government"

Why do these people open their mouths?

[47of74]

1 hour ago, Alicja said:

...my dude, Catholicism is also a "form of government"

Why do these people open their mouths?

My personal theory is that Burke is in love with the sound of his own voice.

[Imagine20]

People like this are why I left the Christian church and became Muslim. 

[Cleopatra7]

I'd like to remind Cardinal Burke that until the 1970s or so, most American Protestants thought the exact same thing of Catholicism that he's now saying about Islam, namely that "Romanism" was fundamentally illiberal, wanted to rule the world, and had undue influence on government at the domestic and international level. Burke is certainly old enough to remember old-school anti-Catholicism, but given how he interprets events, he probably thinks that kind of prejudice was useful in keeping the laity in line.

[47of74]

I'd like to remind Cardinal Burke that until the 1970s or so, most American Protestants thought the exact same thing of Catholicism that he's now saying about Islam, namely that "Romanism" was fundamentally illiberal, wanted to rule the world, and had undue influence on government at the domestic and international level. Burke is certainly old enough to remember old-school anti-Catholicism, but given how he interprets events, he probably thinks that kind of prejudice was useful in keeping the laity in line.

It seems to me that Lord High Ray looks at laity as pew stuffing whose only role in the church is to pray, pay, and obey.

[FloraKitty35]

Cardinal Burke longs for the Middle Ages, when Catholicism had that kind of power, too.

[47of74]

22 hours ago, FloraKitty35 said:

Cardinal Burke longs for the Middle Ages, when Catholicism had that kind of power, too.

Yeah and Lord High Ray dresses like it too. Have you seen some of the stuff he's been seen and photographed wearing? 

There was these set of slides produced in 2007 and they estimated that then his outfits cost $38,364 ($44,181 in today's dollars).

awrsipe.com/Burke/TheCostofLookingGood2007.pdf

[Cleopatra7]

7 hours ago, 47of74 said:

Yeah and Lord High Ray dresses like it too. Have you seen some of the stuff he's been seen and photographed wearing? 

There was these set of slides produced in 2007 and they estimated that then his outfits cost $38,364 ($44,181 in today's dollars).

awrsipe.com/Burke/TheCostofLookingGood2007.pdf

Cardinal Burke is of the mindset that rocking the clerical bling is going to shock and awe young people back into the church, unaware that clerical bling only excites a small subset of traditionalist ecclesiastical cosplayers who swoon at the sight of "manly lace" (not joking about the "manly lace" bit; Google it and you'll be amazed at what you find).

[47of74]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Cardinal Burke is of the mindset that rocking the clerical bling is going to shock and awe young people back into the church, unaware that clerical bling only excites a small subset of traditionalist ecclesiastical cosplayers who swoon at the sight of "manly lace" (not joking about the "manly lace" bit; Google it and you'll be amazed at what you find).

Ya mean like this?

 

Yeah I was sitting at the dining place at the local grocery store when I decided to Google manly lace and saw those pictures together.   And of course I just had to share.

I do wonder if the clerical bling Lord High Ray and his buddies wear is comfortable when it's hot out.  Or if he'd melt outside air conditioning wearing all that stuff?  Lord knows the stuff we wear when assisting at the altar at the Episcopal Church I go to isn't and it's showing its age now.  They were going to order me a custom sized acolyte uniform but I asked them to hold off until we see if my surgery is going to happen or not.

[Cleopatra7]

10 hours ago, 47of74 said:

Ya mean like this?

 

Yeah I was sitting at the dining place at the local grocery store when I decided to Google manly lace and saw those pictures together.   And of course I just had to share.

I do wonder if the clerical bling Lord High Ray and his buddies wear is comfortable when it's hot out.  Or if he'd melt outside air conditioning wearing all that stuff?  Lord knows the stuff we wear when assisting at the altar at the Episcopal Church I go to isn't and it's showing its age now.  They were going to order me a custom sized acolyte uniform but I asked them to hold off until we see if my surgery is going to happen or not.

Here are some blog entries and message board threads about "manly lace," but don't blame me if you fall into a rabbit hole on the politics of lace:

http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2011/06/fiddleback-vestments-lace-and-rage-of.html?m=1

http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11114/the-finest-french-lace-vs.-arbp.-bugninis-best/p1

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2011/09/mantilla-the-hon-on-lace.html

[illinigal]

I wonder what Ray Burke is thinking today given that his boss said Islam did not cause terrorism yesterday.  And my absolute favorite Gay Ray interview was to a website called emangelization about how the Catholic Church is so sissified because of altar girls and career women.  That was loads of fun and full of unintentional irony.  

On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 10:58 AM, 47of74 said:

Yeah and Lord High Ray dresses like it too. Have you seen some of the stuff he's been seen and photographed wearing? 

There was these set of slides produced in 2007 and they estimated that then his outfits cost $38,364 ($44,181 in today's dollars).

awrsipe.com/Burke/TheCostofLookingGood2007.pdf

Ray.. Liberace called and told you to tone it down a bit 

[47of74]

19 minutes ago, illinigal said:

I wonder what Ray Burke is thinking today given that his boss said Islam did not cause terrorism yesterday.  And my absolute favorite Gay Ray interview was to a website called emangelization about how the Catholic Church is so sissified because of altar girls and career women.  That was loads of fun and full of unintentional irony.  

Ray.. Liberace called and told you to tone it down a bit 

Well Lord High Ray has already made his feelings clear about Francis;

ncronline.org/news/vatican/burke-church-under-francis-ship-without-rudder

Quote

American Cardinal Raymond Burke, the feisty former archbishop of St. Louis who has emerged as the face of the opposition to Pope Francis' reformist agenda, likened the Roman Catholic church to "a ship without a rudder" in a fresh attack on the pope's leadership.

In an interview with the Spanish Catholic weekly Vida Nueva, published Thursday, Burke insisted he was not speaking out against the pope personally but raising concern about his leadership.

And when conservative autocrats were in the Papacy Lord High Ray was all about the power of the Papacy, but now not so much.

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-conservative-revolt-is-brewing-inside-the-vatican/2015/09/07/1d8e02ba-4b3d-11e5-80c2-106ea7fb80d4_story.html 

Quote

A staunch conservative and Vatican bureaucrat, Burke had been demoted by the pope a few months earlier, but it did not take the fight out of him. Francis had been backing a more inclusive era, giving space to progressive voices on divorced Catholics as well as gays and lesbians. In front of the camera, Burke said he would “resist” liberal changes — and seemed to caution Francis about the limits of his authority. “One must be very attentive regarding the power of the pope,” Burke told the French news crew.

Papal power, Burke warned, “is not absolute.” He added, “The pope does not have the power to change teaching [or] doctrine.”

 

[illinigal]

I've read that Burke has been complaining about Francis since the Conclave.  And Francis fired Burke from his job in 2014 as the chief canon lawyer.  It is obvious that there is no love lost between the two men.  

[47of74]

1 hour ago, illinigal said:

I've read that Burke has been complaining about Francis since the Conclave.  And Francis fired Burke from his job in 2014 as the chief canon lawyer.  It is obvious that there is no love lost between the two men.  

I wonder if Burke went into the conclave thinking that he would be leaving it as Pope, forgetting the old Roman adage that he who enters it as Pope leaves it as Cardinal.  (Yeah I know that's not always the case, as with Benedict XVI).  Maybe Lord Ray has a scorching case of Papal Envy here and he's just jealous that he wasn't elected.  Or at the least that some other extreme conservative wasn't elected.

[illinigal]

5 hours ago, 47of74 said:

I wonder if Burke went into the conclave thinking that he would be leaving it as Pope, forgetting the old Roman adage that he who enters it as Pope leaves it as Cardinal.  (Yeah I know that's not always the case, as with Benedict XVI).  Maybe Lord Ray has a scorching case of Papal Envy here and he's just jealous that he wasn't elected.  Or at the least that some other extreme conservative wasn't elected.

Burke would be stupid enough to think that.  However, an American will never be elected pope for obvious reasons.  The closest that one might have come was Sean O'Malley in 2013 because O'Malley is thought very highly of in the Church as someone who understands the abuse scandal.  

Moreover, Burke is the Ted Cruz of the College of Cardinals.  I've read more than one story that even the bishops who are on his side are really annoyed by him and his tactics.  He isn't a popular figure among the other cardinals and is seen as sort of a moron.  Remember that he got "promoted" to Rome as a punishment because he made a mess in St Louis, including the weird and unnecessary feud with St. Stanislaus.  And Rome is less a fan of Burke's use of Communion as a political weapon than one might suspect.  The Vatican has to deal with the US on a regular basis; it doesn't need any spats.  

As for the Conclave itself, I suspect that it is an interesting story.  

[47of74]

2 hours ago, illinigal said:

Burke would be stupid enough to think that.  However, an American will never be elected pope for obvious reasons.  The closest that one might have come was Sean O'Malley in 2013 because O'Malley is thought very highly of in the Church as someone who understands the abuse scandal.  

Moreover, Burke is the Ted Cruz of the College of Cardinals.  I've read more than one story that even the bishops who are on his side are really annoyed by him and his tactics.  He isn't a popular figure among the other cardinals and is seen as sort of a moron.  Remember that he got "promoted" to Rome as a punishment because he made a mess in St Louis, including the weird and unnecessary feud with St. Stanislaus.  And Rome is less a fan of Burke's use of Communion as a political weapon than one might suspect.  The Vatican has to deal with the US on a regular basis; it doesn't need any spats.  

As for the Conclave itself, I suspect that it is an interesting story.  

Yeah St. Stanislaus is pretty much my go-to church when I'm in St. Louis visiting family.  It at first confused my parental units who didn't realize it's not a Roman Catholic Church anymore.  Fr. Bozek and I are FB friends and I've actually met him a few times.  He's a really nice guy. 

As for Lord Ray being the Ted Cruz of the College of Cardinals, yeah that's about the most accurate description I've heard of him. 

I think Joseph Bernadin might have had a shot at the Papacy if he hadn't died when he did.  If he had survived his cancer he would've been 77 when John Paul II died and that's not necessarily an impediment now being in ones upper 70s.  Especially if the Cardinals were looking for a shorter reign after the reign of JP II.  

[Cleopatra7]

7 hours ago, 47of74 said:

I wonder if Burke went into the conclave thinking that he would be leaving it as Pope, forgetting the old Roman adage that he who enters it as Pope leaves it as Cardinal.  (Yeah I know that's not always the case, as with Benedict XVI).  Maybe Lord Ray has a scorching case of Papal Envy here and he's just jealous that he wasn't elected.  Or at the least that some other extreme conservative wasn't elected.

I've heard conflicting reports as to whether Benedict XVI actively campaigned during the 2005 conclave (you're technically not supposed to campaign, but people do all kinds of things they aren't supposed to). I'm inclined to say he did, because it seems logical that he would want to finish the work that he started under John Paul II, but he turned out to be really bad at it. Theological or ideological views aside, the main problem with the Benedict XVI papacy was that he didn't have any pastoral experience and, perhaps most importantly, he didn't know how to deal with the media. One of the most important ways that John Paul II transformed the institution of the papacy was in how he made the pope an international media figure. John Paul II had the ability to charm people who vehemently disagreed with him, which Benedict was unable to do; in many of Benedict XVI's public appearances, he looked like he didn't even want to be there, and seemed unable to handle the media (you may have seen footage of him when he was Joseph Ratzinger slapping a reporter asking about the abuse scandal, which should have been a sign of things to come). I think one reason Francis was chosen during the last conclave was because he knows how to work the media like John Paul II did, and after Benedict's tin-eared pontificate, all future popes will have to be media-savvy.

The clerical bling that Burke loves so much simply doesn't play well to people outside of certain conservative and traditionalist circles in Europe and North America. At best, it just seems like an eccentric habit, while at worst it comes off as decadent or downright risible.  Perhaps clerical bling did shock and awe the masses during, say, the Renaissance, when cardinals really were literal "princes of the church" and there were laws that forbade the lower classes from wearing certain clothing styles, fabrics, and colors, but that's not the case today. Tastes change, even in vestment style, and in 2016, the simpler style favored by Francis is preferred to the more baroque style of Burke. The fact that Burke is even more tone-deaf than Benedict with regards to the media indicates why he could never be elected pope.

[Destiny]

3 hours ago, illinigal said:

 Remember that he got "promoted" to Rome as a punishment because he made a mess in St Louis, including the weird and unnecessary feud with St. Stanislaus.

Wait, what? What was he doing feuding with a Californian county? Can someone explain this to the non-Catholic in the room, cos this sounds like an interesting story.

[illinigal]

2 hours ago, Destiny said:

Wait, what? What was he doing feuding with a Californian county? Can someone explain this to the non-Catholic in the room, cos this sounds like an interesting story.

St. Stanislaus is an ethnic Polish parish in St. Louis.  They had a unique set-up the immigrants paid for the parish in the 19th century and they had control over the property.  The set up would be very familiar for Protestants but not for Catholics.  Laypeople are treated like "serfs" in the Catholic Church and do not have much control over things like a pastor selection or even if their  parish remains open.

Ray Burke picked a fight with St. Stans when he was archbishop of St. Louis.  There are some conflicts about why.. either cracking down on a liberal parish, control of assets due to abuse lawsuits, or the fact that Burke is just a jerk.  Burke demanded that St Stan's turn over control to him, pulled the priest from the parish, excommunicated the entire parish, and sued them in court.  The archdiocese lost because St. Stan's had the deed and there was a mountain of bad press.  The Vatican was not amused and shortly after that Burke was "promoted" to Rome.  Removal through promotion is a common way for the Varican to deal with problem clerics (cough: Law: cough).

St. Stan's is now associated with a liberal Catholic breakaway group.  The church appears to be doing quite well by holding weddings and the like.  

[Destiny]

Ok, that makes more sense than a bishop in the Midwest having a beef with a Californian county. Thank you for the story, @illinigal. He sounds like a real piece of work.

[PraiseDog]

He looks just fabulous in the second picture, with his train spread, oh so artfully, on the steps.  He just needs a large, red flowered headband to complete the picture.

Snark aside, this topic is interesting to me because I'm currently reading about the history of Irish immigration to the US, so as you can imagine there's a lot about the history of the Catholic church in it.  They did mention St. Stanislaus and the unique way  it was set up - apparently there were other Catholic parishes established in similar ways in the 19th C - I guess I'll have to get to the end of the book to find out why St. Stanislaus persisted under that system while others did not.

[Destiny]

@praisedog, I require more information, like the name of the book. I'm a bit of a history nerd and that sounds like it would be right up my alley.

[PraiseDog]

Had to run and get my kindle...It's The Irish Americans: A History  by Jay P. Dolan.  Very well-researched with citations.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

He is just pissed he was born in the wrong century. You know in the right century he would have been a prince of the Church, unfathomably rich, powerful and respected. With the added benefit of an immortal portrait by the likes of Tiziano, Raffaello and Van Dyke. Now he has to be contented to ne popular only among a fringe of trad nuts with no hope his name will be remembered for long.