Boy Scouts USA going fundie?

[fundiefun]

http://www.scoutingnews.org/2009/07/06/ ... l-support/

I know this happened awhile ago but it came up on my fb news feed from a conservative Christian facebook friend. Apparently the boy scouts are now doing business with American Heritage Girls as their "sister organization" since I guess Girl Scouts USA was too liberal for them. Apparently there is starting to be a big interest in American Heritage Girls for those who find girl scouts usa too liberal. Anyone heard anything about this and what this means for boy scouts usa? I

[GenerationCedarchip]

Actually, in the US, Camp Fire Girls were started as the sister org to BSA. My cousins were Camp Fire and their leaders were very proud about being the companion org to BSA rather than Girl Scouts being that. I don't know when CFG and BSA split, though.

I'm not sure I'd say BSA is going fundie. They strike me as more openly religious than GSA - at least in my part of the country - but it's more of a mainstream Christianity rather than patriarchy or anything wacky like that.

[pomology]

http://www.scoutingnews.org/2009/07/06/american-heritage-girls-and-boy-scouts-sign-memorandum-of-mutual-support/

I know this happened awhile ago but it came up on my fb news feed from a conservative Christian facebook friend. Apparently the boy scouts are now doing business with American Heritage Girls as their "sister organization" since I guess Girl Scouts USA was too liberal for them. Apparently there is starting to be a big interest in American Heritage Girls for those who find girl scouts usa too liberal. Anyone heard anything about this and what this means for boy scouts usa? I

Apparently Girl Scouts USA is just too awesome for the Boy Scouts, because they actually encourage girls to, you know, be people.

[Austin]

I don't have any problem with other people having their boys in Boy Scouts, but we stopped supporting them when they made a big deal of not agreeing with teh gay.

[slickcat79]

Considering BSA's attitudes toward gay people and atheists, I'm not sure they had too far to go to reach fundie-dom. That's why I was always surprised that ATI created ALERT as the more conservative alternative to the Boy Scouts.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I noticed this year when I went to my hometown's Memorial Day parade, one of the Catholic schools had Cub Scouts and American Heritage Girls, but no Girl Scouts.

[demgirl]

I wasn't allowed to join Girl Scouts for many years thanks to the Boy Scouts versus gays issue. I was pissed b/c I was seven and because the Girl Scouts aren't even really associated with the boy scouts. My mom eventually pointed that out to my dad, and that gay women scouts and leaders were allowed. Then the issue became making a promise about God. In 1993, they started letting you substitute the word "God" in the promise for something else. Then I finally got to join! Of course, by that point I was nine years old and Girl Scouts was only cool for like, another year and a half.

[Austin]

I think Girl Scouts is an organization that seeks to empower girls, and encourages service, independence and self-sufficiency. So since fundies aren't into empowering girls, I can see why GS would be way too secular for them.

[GeoBQn]

A poster on that article claims that American Heritage Girls are "working on it" so that groups could eventually be Jewish, Muslim, etc. Judging by their website, that is not happening any time soon. Troops have to be chartered through a church, private school, or non-profit that abides by the very Christian AHG Statement of Faith:

http://www.ahgonline.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=19322

I was in a Girl Scouts to be around a diverse group of peers and do a variety of activities. For religion, I had Hebrew school.

[Wolfie]

Actually, in the US, Camp Fire Girls were started as the sister org to BSA. My cousins were Camp Fire and their leaders were very proud about being the companion org to BSA rather than Girl Scouts being that. I don't know when CFG and BSA split, though.

I'm not sure I'd say BSA is going fundie. They strike me as more openly religious than GSA - at least in my part of the country - but it's more of a mainstream Christianity rather than patriarchy or anything wacky like that.

Camp Fire is now an organization for boys and girls, it's been that way since the late 70's, but there weren't many boys involved until the 1990s. I'm still somewhat in touch with Camp Fire through alumni events.

That article seems to ignore the history of Camp Fire and Boy Scouts cooperation, as well as the fact that scouts in this area is pretty secular, but has a lot of Mormon members. (my dad still is an active volunteer, even though we're all adults, my dad is pretty secular.)

[PBrooke]

I vaguely remember from an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that for years the Boy Scouts were Mormon-run?

[Wolfie]

I vaguely remember from an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that for years the Boy Scouts were Mormon-run?

Not exactly, but the Mormons are really trying to take over currently, or at least in the past 10 years. But I know that churches can sponsor their own troops, I'm not exactly sure how that works though.

ETA- I've taken nyquil so if my responses get odd...

[lipstickgoalie]

It is not that Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is ruled by Mormons it is that a huge part of their youth membership is Mormon. Scouting is the official activity for boys while there is a church sponsored group for girls. With that arrangement it stands to reason that BSA is catering to a huge potion of its customer base. That helps to explain why the BSA has a draconian stance on religion and Gay issues. Girl Scouts of the United States of America (GSUSA) has always had a separate structure from Boy Scouting in the United States and has always had, contrary to popular belief, a slightly feminist stance. (I have research if anyone wants to see it, I am just too lazy at the moment to pull it all up.)

The thing about BSA is the policy is there but in most troops it isn't followed. My brother has spent a lifetime in Scouting and I truly credit it for breaking him of his nearly pathological shyness and low self esteem. His troop leader was gay and everyone, including council officials, knew. No one cared. He was an amazing leader and volunteered more time than anyone can tally. Even bought a 16 passenger van just so he would be able to drive the troop anywhere and they wouldn't have to fund raise. My brother's troop is not a totally unique case, gay and non-religious leaders all over the place at National Jamboree. I don't like BSA policies but I think the organization is still worthwhile.

While I am on my soapbox about scouting in general one organization that will never see another dime from me is United Way. They have consistently given more dollars to BSA than to GSUSA. There has been an historical problem with a disparity of funding for Girl Scout Troops versus Boy Scout troops. This has historically existed because men were the highest income earners and men were once boys involved in Scouting. My problem is that we are still grappling with that paradigm and United Way is helping to propagate that.

edited for late night typing riffle

[Joykins]

According to my SIL who is very active with AHG, the organization welcomes children from every religion but the organization itself is specifically Christian. I don't know how fundie you have to be to do AHG, but I know the group nearest me (she had me look) is all homeschooling Catholic who specifically talked about the group learning their Catholic heritage--fine for them I daresay but not a place for my daughter who is not Catholic and besides all her friends are from GSA which meets at our (Methodist) church...

[Swamptribe]

I have a friend who is Buddhist. When he was little, he wanted to be a Boyscout, but the local troop wouldn't let him join because he wouldn't acknowledge a creator. He was invited, through friends at school, to join a troop run out of the local Mormon temple. Had a great time for years, and said they never bugged him about religion.

I never let my boys join scouts (daughter either, but she didn't show an interest). But, I do know of several boys, who were Atheists, who joined local troops. The troops knew they were atheists, but just skipped that nasty 'theist' bit in the oath for them. Also know of other Atheist kids who were turned away by troops. It kinda depends on who is running the local troop.

[Guest Anonymous]

My daughter is in her second year of Girl Scouts. Last year during cookie selling season a man very rudely approached some of our girls and troop leader in front of a grocery store saying he wouldn't purchase any of our cookies until we (meaning Girl Scouts) stopped being affiliated with Planned Parenthood. Our troop leader did some digging and she told me that Girl Scouts isn't affiliated. I think my daughters troop leader was kinda concerned about it personally and looked into it. Me personally could care less.

On another note, i'm new here and so glad to be able to be among people who find fundie life crazy sometimes!

[PennySycamore]

There are some Boy Scout troops organized by Buddhist temples, particularly those temples of the Buddhist Churches of America which is in the Jodo Shinshu tradition. I do not know how the Buddhist Boy Scouts get around that supreme being thing, though. Yes, there are Buddhist Girl Scout troops and Camp Fire groups, too.

[lilwriter85]

It is not that Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is ruled by Mormons it is that a huge part of their youth membership is Mormon. Scouting is the official activity for boys while there is a church sponsored group for girls. With that arrangement it stands to reason that BSA is catering to a huge potion of its customer base. That helps to explain why the BSA has a draconian stance on religion and Gay issues. Girl Scouts of the United States of America (GSUSA) has always had a separate structure from Boy Scouting in the United States and has always had, contrary to popular belief, a slightly feminist stance. (I have research if anyone wants to see it, I am just too lazy at the moment to pull it all up.)

The thing about BSA is the policy is there but in most troops it isn't followed. My brother has spent a lifetime in Scouting and I truly credit it for breaking him of his nearly pathological shyness and low self esteem. His troop leader was gay and everyone, including council officials, knew. No one cared. He was an amazing leader and volunteered more time than anyone can tally. Even bought a 16 passenger van just so he would be able to drive the troop anywhere and they wouldn't have to fund raise. My brother's troop is not a totally unique case, gay and non-religious leaders all over the place at National Jamboree. I don't like BSA policies but I think the organization is still worthwhile.

While I am on my soapbox about scouting in general one organization that will never see another dime from me is United Way. They have consistently given more dollars to BSA than to GSUSA. There has been an historical problem with a disparity of funding for Girl Scout Troops versus Boy Scout troops. This has historically existed because men were the highest income earners and men were once boys involved in Scouting. My problem is that we are still grappling with that paradigm and United Way is helping to propagate that.

edited for late night typing riffle

My cousin worked for BSA a few years ago and he mentioned the large Mormon membership in BSA. He also disliked some Mormon members because some troops tended to be more by the book than others.

[Red Molly]

I just cannot put my money or my time towards an organization that is so anti gay and so pro Christian.

[FaustianSlip]

I'm a little surprised that they've opted to go with an organization that is so fundamentalist Christian in its stated outlook when BSA accepts kids from all religious denominations. I know that there's a huge amount of Mormon leadership in BSA, but the irony is that a lot of these Heritage Girl troops wouldn't consider them Christian in the first place, probably. It seems like a really weird PR move, especially given that even more conservative parents of kids who already have a boy in BSA and want their daughter in another group could easily be, y'know, non-Christian. I can see aspects of the Heritage Girls that might appeal more to very conservative Muslims or Jews, for instance, but for the fact that they're not only Christian based, but they require that troops be founded via a specifically Christian organization.

Also, while I'm on this subject, don't go saying that you wanted a "Judeo-Christian" girls' organization when there's nothing Jewish about it, since it's pretty evident that you've gone out of your way to excise anything non-Christian from your program. That kind of shit pisses me off so much; aside from the fact that the Jewish and Christian traditions have wildly different attitudes toward and interpretations of some pretty fundamental religious concepts, "Judeo-Christian" is almost invariably code for, "Really just Christian, usually fundie, but we'll call it 'Judeo-Christian' so that we can bat our eyes and pretend Jewish or other people who complain are just intolerant douchebags."

[Hane]

[O]ne organization that will never see another dime from me is United Way. They have consistently given more dollars to BSA than to GSUSA. There has been an historical problem with a disparity of funding for Girl Scout Troops versus Boy Scout troops. This has historically existed because men were the highest income earners and men were once boys involved in Scouting. My problem is that we are still grappling with that paradigm and United Way is helping to propagate that.

I feel the same way. I was a long-time board member of our local YWCA, and it used to chap our @$$ that United Way consistently gave far more support to the YMCA, when we were trying hard to provide social services to marginalized people and they were, well, running a gym.

[Antigone]

I've noticed the differences between BSA and GUSA when I was young- my school always allowed the boy scouts to do stuff at the school: fund raisers, recruiting, etc- but wouldn't allow any other group to do so except for one presenation done by the CampFire people. Hubby was a boy scout, and made it all the way to eagle scout. I think i've seen his award crammed somewhere in a dark corner of our attic, lol.

My daughter's classmates are in Girl Scouts- a lot of them, and I've gotten a few emails letting me know it is time to join!! eleventy!! and I replied simply that Sevy was more of a sports type of gal instead of a Scout girl. Even if she asks, I probably wouldn't let her join scouts. I just don't feel OK having her be part of something that doesn't seem to "fit" her needs (interpreters are not welcome, I've seen a few fights over this issue with groups like BSA, GUSA, CampFire, etc- sports are a better bet, thanks to the wrestler Hamill and Ashley Fiolek for X-games, who is my daughter's current hero. It's a irony considering Juliette Gordon Low, the founder of GUSA was deaf).

end soapbox rant :)

[MrsYoungie]

I don't know about BSA, but I was a leader in Scouts Canada for nearly 10 years. Our group was not particularly religious even though we were sponsored by a church. I only ever saw 3 boys get their Religion in Life badges and one of them was Muslim.

I just did a bit of research and saw that Scouts Canada offers a Buddist Relgion in Life badge so no need for exclusion there.

Although I ran into some anti-gay talk at leader training - it was not ever mentioned otherwise. The one reference, in fact, was in the qualifications for leaders and the trainer mentioned that gays were still not allowed to be leaders. This led to a smattering of applause which disgusted me. The subject was never heard of again. Both religion and sexual orientation were ignored in our group.

Girl Guides of Canada is the sister organization here and is much more liberal than the Scouts. Quite the feminist bunch really, and gay leaders are, if not common, certainly not rare or discriminated against.

[GryffindorFTW]

^ Scouting in the U.S. is a rather different animal from scouting everywhere else, unfortunately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting

And no, it's not a special "American" institution. ;)

[mirele]

I have a friend who is Buddhist. When he was little, he wanted to be a Boyscout, but the local troop wouldn't let him join because he wouldn't acknowledge a creator. He was invited, through friends at school, to join a troop run out of the local Mormon temple. Had a great time for years, and said they never bugged him about religion.

I never let my boys join scouts (daughter either, but she didn't show an interest). But, I do know of several boys, who were Atheists, who joined local troops. The troops knew they were atheists, but just skipped that nasty 'theist' bit in the oath for them. Also know of other Atheist kids who were turned away by troops. It kinda depends on who is running the local troop.

I know a guy who got the Boy Scouts thrown out of his local schools in the 1990s because of the Buddhism issue. It irked hm that here he was, a good Buddhist, his kids were good Buddhists, but the BSA said you had to acknowledge a creator, and Buddhism doesn't have one. He pointed out to the school board that BSA was discriminating against very religious people and, to no one's real surprise (this was California), the BSA was given the left foot of fellowship out of the schools.

BSA is the only male youth activity in the Mormon church in the USA. In the more distant past, when you got to be a certain age, to hold a position within your (Mormon) boy scout troop, you had to be a priesthood holder. This was a big problem in the early 1970s when it became clear that this caused discrimination against African-American scouts in Mormon troops, who could not be ordained to the priesthood. A lawsuit, and then a settlement, ensued. The issue became moot when the Mormon church started ordaining African-Americans in 1978.