Stabbing at the Jerusalem pride parade

[AuntCloud]

Hatred is still at large. The stabber was just released after a long sentence for stabbing at another pride parade several years ago. Can I take him and PP and smash their heads together?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 17,00.html

[Anny Nym]

This was just here in the evening news, but as a short notice/one-liner.

So in the middle of Jerusalem at a gay parade it did occur then. Very sad :(, I hope the victims make it through.

[2xx1xy1JD]

He needs to be locked up indefinitely.

I'm surprised that authorities weren't monitoring him. Since he did the same shit before, it looks like it was both predictable and preventable.

[Arete]

Someone needs to lose their job over this. He apparently has never shown any remorse for the 2005 stabbings and was release to live only a few blocks from the parade route. No doubt some bureaucrat is going to be on the news tonight doing his version of "We are shocked, SHOCKED!"

[OkToBeTakei]

Someone needs to lose their job over this. He apparently has never shown any remorse for the 2005 stabbings and was release to live only a few blocks from the parade route. No doubt some bureaucrat is going to be on the news tonight doing his version of "We are shocked, SHOCKED!"

Yes, why on earth was he not monitored? That's outrageous.

Just as well it was not a gun he had.

[Cleopatra7]

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised by this story. Perhaps the only thing that conservative Jews and Muslims in Israel can agree on is that the "holy city" of Jerusalem should not be "stained" by gay pride marches. Jerusalem's secular population is basically being driven out by aggressive Haredi Jews, who have the kind of power that the American religious right only dream of. While the Israeli-Palestinan conflict tends to take up all of the discussions about Israel, the conflicts between secular and Haredi Jews really deserves more attention in the West, because it show how extreme religionists have no intention of co-existing with secular people or more progressive faith communities. There have also been outbreaks of violence against gay pride marches held in Eastern Europe recently by ultra-nationalists and skinheads, causing injuries to marchers and police alike:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... kiev-pride

[OkToBeTakei]

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised by this story. Perhaps the only thing that conservative Jews and Muslims in Israel can agree on is that the "holy city" of Jerusalem should not be "stained" by gay pride marches. Jerusalem's secular population is basically being driven out by aggressive Haredi Jews, who have the kind of power that the American religious right only dream of. While the Israeli-Palestinan conflict tends to take up all of the discussions about Israel, the conflicts between secular and Haredi Jews really deserves more attention in the West, because it show how extreme religionists have no intention of co-existing with secular people or more progressive faith communities. There have also been outbreaks of violence against gay pride marches held in Eastern Europe recently by ultra-nationalists and skinheads, causing injuries to marchers and police alike:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... kiev-pride

Can't bold on my phone but that is an interesting observation regarding the conflict and how this masks as you said the religious extremes.

I think it would make an already tide of negativity toward Israel even worse. The 2014 violence has had a profound effect on public opinion in Europe, I'm not sure if this is also the case in the U.S.

Rumblings now wish to impose sanctions (economic) which mirror those of S.A at the height of apartheid. So the type of extremism displayed and its influence would certainly worsen the already negative feeling and discomfort people feel toward Israel :(

[2xx1xy1JD]

Can't bold on my phone but that is an interesting observation regarding the conflict and how this masks as you said the religious extremes.

I think it would make an already tide of negativity toward Israel even worse. The 2014 violence has had a profound effect on public opinion in Europe, I'm not sure if this is also the case in the U.S.

Rumblings now wish to impose sanctions (economic) which mirror those of S.A at the height of apartheid. So the type of extremism displayed and its influence would certainly worsen the already negative feeling and discomfort people feel toward Israel :(

That could happen, but it would be utterly daft to think that the BDS movement would help secular folks or further LGBT rights.

In Israel, there's a split among religious Jews. Some are "national religious" Zionists, while the Haredi are generally non-Zionist or anti-Zionist. The BDS (sanctions) crowd doesn't say much about the Haredi, because aren't Zionist.

When security issues are the #1 priority, other stuff slips. There are currently 11 different political parties sitting in the Knesset, so they have to make coalitions in order form a government and stay in power. If there is disagreement between the major parties on a security issue, they need the smaller religious parties to support them in order to gain/keep power. So, if a big party has a strong position on negotiations with Palestinians, they will be willing to give a Haredi party what they want. Haredi parties like Shas have supported both Labor and Likud governments. They are basically political whores - willing to go to bed with anyone who pays enough. [sorry if this sounds like strong language, but their current leader has already served time for embezzlement and the current deal demanded the treasury department. Fox guarding the hen house.] On the other hand, when there is a national unity government or the government can get enough centrist support for major policies, they can make progress on social issues and leave the Haredi parties in the cold. Prior to the last election, the centrist coalition didn't include any Haredi parties.

So....if you want to support secular and LGBT rights in Israel, you need a centrist coalition with broad support. The last thing you want is to ramp up external security threats.

The majority of Israelis are still secular, or mildly traditional. Although growing, Haredi are the minority. Haredi have less participation in the workforce, so boycotts/sanctions have less of an effect on them. There is also a fair bit of resentment toward Haredim by the rest of the Israeli public, since they generally don't serve in the army and rely more heavily on state benefits and try to tell others what to do. The Israeli Supreme Court has been strongly supportive of LGBT rights for years - Israel was granting rights to same-sex partners for military benefits long before the US allowed gays to serve, and they recognized same-sex domestic partnerships and foreign marriages fairly early on as well. Tel Aviv has a VERY well-established LGBT scene.

If BDS supporters like Max Blumenthal got their way, Israel would cease to exist and the institutions which have protected LBGT rights there would cease to function.

[OkToBeTakei]

That could happen, but it would be utterly daft to think that the BDS movement would help secular folks or further LGBT rights.

In Israel, there's a split among religious Jews. Some are "national religious" Zionists, while the Haredi are generally non-Zionist or anti-Zionist. The BDS (sanctions) crowd doesn't say much about the Haredi, because aren't Zionist.

When security issues are the #1 priority, other stuff slips. There are currently 11 different political parties sitting in the Knesset, so they have to make coalitions in order form a government and stay in power. If there is disagreement between the major parties on a security issue, they need the smaller religious parties to support them in order to gain/keep power. So, if a big party has a strong position on negotiations with Palestinians, they will be willing to give a Haredi party what they want. Haredi parties like Shas have supported both Labor and Likud governments. They are basically political whores - willing to go to bed with anyone who pays enough. [sorry if this sounds like strong language, but their current leader has already served time for embezzlement and the current deal demanded the treasury department. Fox guarding the hen house.] On the other hand, when there is a national unity government or the government can get enough centrist support for major policies, they can make progress on social issues and leave the Haredi parties in the cold. Prior to the last election, the centrist coalition didn't include any Haredi parties.

So....if you want to support secular and LGBT rights in Israel, you need a centrist coalition with broad support. The last thing you want is to ramp up external security threats.

The majority of Israelis are still secular, or mildly traditional. Although growing, Haredi are the minority. Haredi have less participation in the workforce, so boycotts/sanctions have less of an effect on them. There is also a fair bit of resentment toward Haredim by the rest of the Israeli public, since they generally don't serve in the army and rely more heavily on state benefits and try to tell others what to do. The Israeli Supreme Court has been strongly supportive of LGBT rights for years - Israel was granting rights to same-sex partners for military benefits long before the US allowed gays to serve, and they recognized same-sex domestic partnerships and foreign marriages fairly early on as well. Tel Aviv has a VERY well-established LGBT scene.

If BDS supporters like Max Blumenthal got their way, Israel would cease to exist and the institutions which have protected LBGT rights there would cease to function.

So complicated 2xx. Mind you what country's politics is not? The problem is I feel that Jo Common will not look at the details but just look at the glaring issues (in an international sense) and that is not going to help Israel or it's neighbours I suspect :(

[catparty]

Israel has grown so toxic. It's like there's a tiny island of reason between extremities and it's constantly barraged by accusations of anti-Semitism or anti-Muslim.

Something like 20 years ago, a man was arrested in the States for spying on Israel's behalf. He was released not long ago, after years of being asked by Israel to set him free, and people are saying it was done to appease them after the Iranian deal.

God forbid this stops American conservatives from accusing Israeli-boot-licking Obama of being anti-Israel. Uggghhh. It's a minefield.

[bBvideo 560,340:3tmis85h]

[/bBvideo]

[latraviata]

Israel has grown so toxic. It's like there's a tiny island of reason between extremities and it's constantly barraged by accusations of anti-Semitism or anti-Muslim.

Something like 20 years ago, a man was arrested in the States for spying on Israel's behalf. He was released not long ago, after years of being asked by Israel to set him free, and people are saying it was done to appease them after the Iranian deal.

God forbid this stops American conservatives from accusing Israeli-boot-licking Obama of being anti-Israel. Uggghhh. It's a minefield.

[bBvideo 560,340:2aa9s48j]

[/bBvideo]

In the islamic countries, numerous gays are killed every god given day, not a word!

One very disturbed jewish man and the word is outraged! It is horrible what he did, don't get me wrong, but I am sick and tired of these double standards!

[catparty]

In the islamic countries, numerous gays are killed every god given day, not a word!

One very disturbed jewish man and the word is outraged! It is horrible what he did, don't get me wrong, but I am sick and tired of these double standards!

Yeah, darn these double standards. The media won't shut up about how reasonable and non-violent the Muslims are, especially Iranians!

Israel is pretty shitty, dude. So is our other butt buddy, Saudi Arabia. But this is a thread about Israel.

[Arete]

I'll take Israel over the Ayatollahs every time.

[catparty]

I'll take Israel over the Ayatollahs every time.

Totally. Ideally, I'd like to live in 1970s Iran before they went and done goofed it. Shit was righteous. Chicks were attending world renown universities while wearing bouffants and mini-skirts and they were owning the technical sciences left and right.

But have you noticed how difficult it is to discuss Israel's shortfalls without mentioning Islam? It's like whenever I talk to my racist family about something negative a black person's done and I'm compelled to bring up PEW statistics which paint whites in an unflattering light. I understand it, I really do, but I would be shocked if there were anti-Semitic users here- at least any who would dare post their opinions without being immediately shut down. It should be okay to have an honest discussion about this kind of thing.

On a related note, there was another firebombing perpetrated by illegal settlers and a 1-year-old was burned to death. It was the first such act called an act of terrorism by the state and was, incidentally, also the first fatal arson attack on Palestinians. So that reaction was slightly heartening and I hope that an investigation is carried out.

Ramble ramble ramble. The heat is scrambling my brains in a serious way, apologies.

[latraviata]

Yeah, darn these double standards. The media won't shut up about how reasonable and non-violent the Muslims are, especially Iranians!

Israel is pretty shitty, dude. So is our other butt buddy, Saudi Arabia. But this is a thread about Israel.

Is it? Or you just decided it is?

Dude?? Really?

Israel pretty shitty, for the last decades a lot of people are rewriting history.

Yes, I lived in the Middle East for quite some time.

The end.

[OkToBeTakei]

Is it? Or you just decided it is?

Dude?? Really?

Israel pretty shitty, for the last decades a lot of people are rewriting history.

Yes, I lived in the Middle East for quite some time.

The end.

You know latraviata I really genuinely like your posts and let's face it I can go off on shit but this just gets annoying, the fact you lived in the Middle East has no bearing on this conversation except for you to make some point because somebody disagreed with you.

The thread was about a gay pride march and initially folks were just horrified that the guy was able to commit the crime again due to his previous. The religious and Israel part evolved from that .... No double standard just a natural thread evolvement with some interesting and informative information. No double standards. Folks are just as horrified by any hate crime in any country I find. The need to bring up Muslims and Muslim countries to make a comparison says more about your beliefs than adding anything to the conversation.

Anyway. I feel better now.

[OkToBeTakei]

Totally. Ideally, I'd like to live in 1970s Iran before they went and done goofed it. Shit was righteous. Chicks were attending world renown universities while wearing bouffants and mini-skirts and they were owning the technical sciences left and right.

But have you noticed how difficult it is to discuss Israel's shortfalls without mentioning Islam? It's like whenever I talk to my racist family about something negative a black person's done and I'm compelled to bring up PEW statistics which paint whites in an unflattering light. I understand it, I really do, but I would be shocked if there were anti-Semitic users here- at least any who would dare post their opinions without being immediately shut down. It should be okay to have an honest discussion about this kind of thing.

On a related note, there was another firebombing perpetrated by illegal settlers and a 1-year-old was burned to death. It was the first such act called an act of terrorism by the state and was, incidentally, also the first fatal arson attack on Palestinians. So that reaction was slightly heartening and I hope that an investigation is carried out.

Ramble ramble ramble. The heat is scrambling my brains in a serious way, apologies.

Yeah the Islam thing. Same with discussing the Palestinian conflict, some not all of course will just shut you down with the anti-semitism label which angers me personally. There was an Israeli poster here for a while and it was fascinating listening to her opinions experiences. She was hilarious and her manner and language/cultural differences certainly caused some memorable threads.

It's a tricky issue and like any subject with such polarising views it can be a minefield. My overriding desire in those debates is to learn and what makes it hard is that people DO make mistakes, use wrong terms or references and immediately somebody goes off on a huge one about being offended. How can people learn if they are too gagged by fear of labelling to ask questions? It has happened frequently on this forum and I wonder if it is the same in other mediums. I don't find it so in my own social circle which does contain both Muslim and Jew. I may just be lucky to have patient friends :lol:

[latraviata]

You know latraviata I really genuinely like your posts and let's face it I can go off on shit but this just gets annoying, the fact you lived in the Middle East has no bearing on this conversation except for you to make some point because somebody disagreed with you.

The thread was about a gay pride march and initially folks were just horrified that the guy was able to commit the crime again due to his previous. The religious and Israel part evolved from that .... No double standard just a natural thread evolvement with some interesting and informative information. No double standards. Folks are just as horrified by any hate crime in any country I find. The need to bring up Muslims and Muslim countries to make a comparison says more about your beliefs than adding anything to the conversation.

Anyway. I feel better now.

I am glad you do,

[2xx1xy1JD]

Israel has grown so toxic. It's like there's a tiny island of reason between extremities and it's constantly barraged by accusations of anti-Semitism or anti-Muslim.

Something like 20 years ago, a man was arrested in the States for spying on Israel's behalf. He was released not long ago, after years of being asked by Israel to set him free, and people are saying it was done to appease them after the Iranian deal.

God forbid this stops American conservatives from accusing Israeli-boot-licking Obama of being anti-Israel. Uggghhh. It's a minefield.

[bBvideo 560,340:2hwwvcpu]

[/bBvideo]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Regarding Jonathan Pollard, he will be released in November, because by that point he'll have served 30 years and by law, he's entitled to be reviewed for parole. After 30 years, he poses no danger to anyone. Even still, he'll be on probation and restricted to a particular geographic area. Obama is not giving him a pardon.

There's a very strong cooperative relationship between the US and Israel in general. There is also a really bad personal relationship between Obama and Netanyahu. Both of those facts are common knowledge.

Any time that someone describes "Israel" as being X, it's a bit ridiculous because it's not one person (or a hive vagina). It's a place where you've got ideas crashing into each other, there is constant debate, people argue politics all the time and each person has their own POV (and might start their own political party).

[teacherjane]

I always think it's really funny that Israel is talked about as if Netanyahu calls up every. single. citizen every time he makes a decision--at least, this is what happens whenever more liberal students at my undergrad would talk about Israel. Of course that doesn't happen!Same goes for when ppl assume that every Jewish person has the same opinion about everything regarding gays, Israel, politics, etc. My lesbian Jewish (reform) partner isn't going to think the same way as my orthodox Jewish friends...which is so hard for so many people to understand, apparently.

[Terrie]

One of the victims, a 16 year old girl who was there to support her LGBT friends, has died of her wounds.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/1.669161

[catparty]

Fucking fuck.

Fundamentalism strikes again.

[OkToBeTakei]

I always think it's really funny that Israel is talked about as if Netanyahu calls up every. single. citizen every time he makes a decision--at least, this is what happens whenever more liberal students at my undergrad would talk about Israel. Of course that doesn't happen!Same goes for when ppl assume that every Jewish person has the same opinion about everything regarding gays, Israel, politics, etc. My lesbian Jewish (reform) partner isn't going to think the same way as my orthodox Jewish friends...which is so hard for so many people to understand, apparently.

Not sure I understand. I think it's just a general way of talking if I say the U.S. or EUROPE I don't think folks think it's some one entity, just a turn of speech. I doubt or certainly hope most folk realise that. Same with Israel. Mind you there are dumb folk out there :lol:

Students though.... Well yeah they are an intense little bunch, that's a good time of life.

[OkToBeTakei]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Regarding Jonathan Pollard, he will be released in November, because by that point he'll have served 30 years and by law, he's entitled to be reviewed for parole. After 30 years, he poses no danger to anyone. Even still, he'll be on probation and restricted to a particular geographic area. Obama is not giving him a pardon.

There's a very strong cooperative relationship between the US and Israel in general. There is also a really bad personal relationship between Obama and Netanyahu. Both of those facts are common knowledge.

Any time that someone describes "Israel" as being X, it's a bit ridiculous because it's not one person (or a hive vagina). It's a place where you've got ideas crashing into each other, there is constant debate, people argue politics all the time and each person has their own POV (and might start their own political party).

I was not familiar with this chap but two or three articles later it would appear that your opinion that he poses no danger is not universally held by some in the U.S. Government. Interesting.

Netanyahu is a polarising character for sure, it is not just Obama who has a difficult relationship with him, his policies have made him deeply unpopular in Europe and I do think this amongst many other factors is causing the amount of ill-feeling generated toward Israel (used in the general obviously) following last year.

Israel (again general) has relied heavily on the U.S. historically. It is interesting what is happening there and also a bit concerning.

[teacherjane]

Not sure I understand. I think it's just a general way of talking if I say the U.S. or EUROPE I don't think folks think it's some one entity, just a turn of speech. I doubt or certainly hope most folk realise that. Same with Israel. Mind you there are dumb folk out there :lol:

Students though.... Well yeah they are an intense little bunch, that's a good time of life.

I probably didn't word it right :/

My friends get asked pretty often "Why does Israel _______________ ?"--as in, "Pls explain to me why Israel has these policies because you, as a Jew, must know why the government does them." My friends and partner all grew up in the US (usually in the South!) and have never been to the country, but bc of their faith it is assumed they have a say about what goes on in that country. I don't know if it's a phenomenon outside of university, but I hope it's not bc it's kind of annoying