can someone explain the relationships?

[calimojo]

Ok I have been on FJ for several months now, but I am still so confused by the references to the many "churches" and their fundie royalty.

Can someone do a connect the dots for me?

First off, we all talk about Gothardism. Am I right that ATI and IBLP are Gothard based organizations?

And I know that there is or was something called Vision Forum and was it Started by Doug Phillips?

Is Vision Forum Gothardism? And what relationship do the Duggars have with VF as I think I have seen pictures of them with Phillips?

And Gil Bates is on the board for something is it ATI? or IBLP?

Is IBLP a church? Is ATI a Church or is that the Homeschooling branch of Gothardism? IS there a big umbrella organization for Gothardism? Is that what IBLP is?

Who does Brandon Keilan work for? Who does David Waller work for?

Is Journey to the Heart a Gothard program through ATI or IBLP? Is ALERT the male equivalent to JtH?

As you can see I am in serious need of help. :lol:

And if there are others out there I haven't mentioned please tell me about them as well

Thanks,

[GotCaughtDancing]

Ok I have been on FJ for several months now, but I am still so confused by the references to the many "churches" and their fundie royalty.

Can someone do a connect the dots for me?

First off, we all talk about Gothardism. Am I right that ATI and IBLP are Gothard based organizations?

And I know that there is or was something called Vision Forum and was it Started by Doug Phillips?

Is Vision Forum Gothardism? And what relationship do the Duggars have with VF as I think I have seen pictures of them with Phillips?

And Gil Bates is on the board for something is it ATI? or IBLP?

Is IBLP a church? Is ATI a Church or is that the Homeschooling branch of Gothardism? IS there a big umbrella organization for Gothardism? Is that what IBLP is?

Who does Brandon Keilan work for? Who does David Waller work for?

Is Journey to the Heart a Gothard program through ATI or IBLP? Is ALERT the male equivalent to JtH?

As you can see I am in serious need of help. :lol:

And if there are others out there I haven't mentioned please tell me about them as well

Thanks,

We have a forum that has all the fundie goodies in it:

Main Forum with all topics: http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=167

ATI/IBLP: http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=129

I hope these are helpful. :D

[calimojo]

Thank you for your post. The problem for me with the links that you posted is that it has too much info. I really appreciated you taking the time to post those links, and if I ever have the time, I will dig through them but what I was hoping for was quick couple of sentences on each of them. Something like:

XYZ is the cult started by John Doe. He branched out to homeschooling and called it LMN.

QR is another fundie denom run by George Smith, and they differ from XYZ in allowing women to work and wear pants. Even though they have different leadership, they often cross over to one another for HomeSchooling resources or seminars.

That was kind of what I was looking for. I have gone to the pages that has info for several different groups, but I kind of wanted a quick comparison. It would be great to have a grid or spreadsheet reference especially for those of us who are sort of new to the culture.

[DGayle]

The best way to sum it up is it's all different seasonings on the same clusterfuck mash-up of bullshit. It's all patriarchy, all the same teachings at the end of the day. This of it like the different versions of the bible. It's all the same, just worded differently because each company that does a different translation owns the copyright and the rights to make money off of it.

[Palimpsest]

Thank you for your post. The problem for me with the links that you posted is that it has too much info. I really appreciated you taking the time to post those links, and if I ever have the time, I will dig through them but what I was hoping for was quick couple of sentences on each of them. Something like:

XYZ is the cult started by John Doe. He branched out to homeschooling and called it LMN.

QR is another fundie denom run by George Smith, and they differ from XYZ in allowing women to work and wear pants. Even though they have different leadership, they often cross over to one another for HomeSchooling resources or seminars.

That was kind of what I was looking for. I have gone to the pages that has info for several different groups, but I kind of wanted a quick comparison. It would be great to have a grid or spreadsheet reference especially for those of us who are sort of new to the culture.

I agree. I've actually been working on something like that - but it is hugely complex. Every time I think I'm getting a handle on it something else happens. If there is a system, and relationships, and commonalities, they are all in permanent flux. And there are so many of them and so many variations.

What most of the extreme US Christian Fundies we snark on here have in common is: Patriarchal, Dominionist, Quiverfull, homeschooling, literal interpretation of the Bible (which Bible translation they insist on does vary) and a remarkable tolerance of child abuse (AKA "training up the child.")

To go back to your original question though and vastly oversimplifying:

Both Gothard (ATI/IBLP) and Phillips (Vision Forum) ran "parachurches." That sort of translates as "interdenominational." Both have been now deposed but the legacy lives on. They worked together on some things but squabbled on others. As do their followers. All the time.

Vast overgeneralization alert for the following:

The Gothardites tend to be more "Baptist" (catching outliers who don't find SBC Fundie enough) and IFB (that is Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) and variations thereof. More likely to be KJV only. They stress home church a lot. No dancing, alcohol, and really anti-education. Courtship and modesty up the wazoo.

Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) was/is more Calvinist than Baptist. Geneva Bible permitted. Very lax on dress, alcohol, dancing, and all that. Into homeschooling but not totally averse to college education. Preference for non-accredited Bible College, naturally, but VF sprogs and interns have gone to decent accredited colleges.

It is seriously hard to keep track of them all and how they overlap because anyone can essentially invent their own version of "Christianity." We try to type some of these people as far as we can, but we are not always accurate. And this isn't even touching on the multiple other groups and family cults (see Maxwell).

And as I said, the Venn diagram is in a constant state of flux because they pick fights over tiny doctrinal differences ALL THE TIME! That is a good thing because they will never take over the World for Jesus while they are all still squabbling. :lol:

Anyway, I hope that helps a bit.

ETA. Added Quiverfull to the commonalities. What a strange thing to have forgotten!

[calimojo]

Thanks, that does help.

Just a couple of questions. Is IBLP the same thing as ATI? Or is IBLP the 'mothership' and ATI is a satellite or that?

And Gil Bates is on the board of ATI or IBLP?

[sense and nonsense]

Thanks, that does help.

Just a couple of questions. Is IBLP the same thing as ATI? Or is IBLP the 'mothership' and ATI is a satellite or that?

And Gil Bates is on the board of ATI or IBLP?

ATI is just the homeschooling curriculum of IBLP.

IBLP is the organisation

[formergothardite]

I think that perhaps the leaders of these organizations keep/kept things confusing on purpose. VF had a for profit side and a non-profit side and it was easy to mix up the two. ATI families often bought things from the VF catalogs and went to VF events.

ATI is the homeschool curriculum offered by IBLP. Journey to the Heart is a program that was originally just for ATI students but I think now is open to more people. ALERT was started for ATI students but has been made into an entirely separate organization. On ALERT's website they claim it was started by a homeschooling father. Oak Brook College of Law was started by Bill Gothard along with the HSLDA and at first it was primarily for ATI students, the graduations were originally held at IBLP headquarters. Watching the Basic Seminar used to be a requirement before a student was even allowed into OBCL. It also tries to pretend that it was totally not founded on Gothard principles.

CharacterFirst was also originally a Gothard program and is based around his character quality teachings. ATI students used to go help teach CharacterFirst in public schools. You would not know the Gothard connection by looking at the website. Through this secular organization Gothard had gotten his 49 Character qualities in schools, government offices, and prisons. This city even has them posted on the city website.

http://www.cityofconway.com/images/49Qualities.pdf

As for Gil Bates, he is on the BoD of IBLP. Figuring out what is Gothard can be tricky because of how he starts programs, then separates them from IBLP and tries to erase the connection.

Anyway, hope this helps a little.

[calimojo]

Thanks, This was very helpful

[RosyDaisy]

Have there been any marriages between IBLP people and VF people? By that I mean active in those programs at the time?

[lilith]

Have there been any marriages between IBLP people and VF people? By that I mean active in those programs at the time?

Pretty sure the Seewalds were VF, or at least used some of their materials, but most fundamentalist homeschoolers used some VF materials, they just didn't get the Calvinist or more pseudo intellectual stuff if they were ATI or other IFB varieties.

Also, many families, the Duggars and the Bontragers spring to mind, but there are many others, were actively involved in both groups and attended events held by both.