Terrorist Attacks in Denmark

[samurai_sarah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31475803 (not broken, it's the BBC)

From the link:

Police in Copenhagen say they have shot dead a man they believe was behind two deadly attacks in the Danish capital hours earlier.

Police say they killed the man in the Norrebro district after he opened fire on them.

It came after one person was killed and three police officers injured at a free speech debate in a cafe on Saturday.

In the second attack, a Jewish man was killed and two police officers wounded near the city's main synagogue.

Police say video surveillance suggested the same man carried out both attacks. They do not believe any other people were involved.

My thoughts are with the families.

[Burris]

More poison.

[Jana814]

Really sad!

[Anny Nym]

And today, in Braunschweig (Germany) , they cancelled the big Karneval parade with 100 parade floats right before it started and sent everybody back home (literally thousands of visitors) because of a serious terror attack threat.

:?

[nomoxian]

And today, in Braunschweig (Germany) , they cancelled the big Karneval parade with 100 parade floats right before it started and sent everybody back home (literally thousands of visitors) because of a serious terror attack threat.

I really hope that was a fake threat put out by Pegida and not anything real.

and my thoughts are with the friends and relatives of those affected in Denmark... really sad. So much crazy lately.

[crazyforkate]

Horrendous. Denmark is a wonderful place. This is awful.

[Anny Nym]

I really hope that was a fake threat put out by Pegida and not anything real.

and my thoughts are with the friends and relatives of those affected in Denmark... really sad. So much crazy lately.

Hm, I just googled that and it seems to be a very serious and real thing: apparently a informant tipped off state security and the german police spoke about a "precise islamic threat".

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 18576.html

Yes, you are right. So much crazy lately, one just can´t find words for it. My husband has family in Denmark, it somehow makes it feel more "close" (I hope that doesn´t sound too odd, I don´t know how to describe that right)

[whoviana]

I have to say I am freaking worried about the future of Europe...

[sparkles]

I have to say I am freaking worried about the future of Europe...

I am freaking worried about the future of the world. :cry:

[GolightlyGrrl]

So horrifying.

[Cleopatra7]

I'm really not sure how political Islam, particularly this new strand inspired by ISIS, is supposed to be defeated. Boots on the ground military intervention doesn't seem to work, as the Afghanistan mess shows and the pointless Iraq War created the vacuum that enabled ISIS to exist in the first place. Drone strikes alienate people, especially when civilians get caught in the crossfire. Unlike the Cold War, where the people behind the Iron Curtain were fascinated by American music, cars, jeans, etc., Islamists claim that there is nothing we have that they want, whether in terms of liberal democracy or pop culture. If hard power and soft power are out, what does that leave? I really don't have any answers.

[freejingerbeth]

You are so right. :think: :angry-banghead:

[sparkles]

I'm really not sure how political Islam, particularly this new strand inspired by ISIS, is supposed to be defeated. Boots on the ground military intervention doesn't seem to work, as the Afghanistan mess shows and the pointless Iraq War created the vacuum that enabled ISIS to exist in the first place. Drone strikes alienate people, especially when civilians get caught in the crossfire. Unlike the Cold War, where the people behind the Iron Curtain were fascinated by American music, cars, jeans, etc., Islamists claim that there is nothing we have that they want, whether in terms of liberal democracy or pop culture. If hard power and soft power are out, what does that leave? I really don't have any answers.

I think the best we can hope for is that they destroy themselves through factional infighting. As with most fundamentalist groups, there are so many offshoots and all of them think they're the only ones who've got it right. With any kind of luck the monster will eat itself. Not holding my breath though. As soon as one group disappears another takes its place.

[OkToBeTakei]

I have to say I am freaking worried about the future of Europe...

I wouldn't worry too much. Terrorism is far from new in Europe. The recent attacks are different from the partisan types of the past. ETA IRA Neo-Nazis etc. The world notices now because they choose to. It is not new.

More worrying is this ...

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called for "massive immigration" of European Jews to Israel following the shooting attack outside a Copenhagen synagogue that killed a Danish Jew.

Netanyahu said the government on Sunday will discuss a $46M plan to encourage Jewish immigration from France, Belgium and Ukraine.

"This wave of attacks is expected to continue," Netanyahu said at the start of a cabinet meeting. "Jews deserve security in every country, but we say to our Jewish brothers and sisters, Israel is your home."

I think this is ill-timed and counter-productive. Especially considering that victims are not all Jewish. Actually not the sole target of ISIS. If they even have a legitimate target.

Thankfully as someone mentioned Denmark is a cool customer.

Jair Melchior, Denmark's chief rabbi, said he was "disappointed" by Netanyahu's call for immigration following the attack.

"Terror is not a reason to move to Israel," he said.

Not sure if this is some lone criminal/psychopath/sociopath. The moment though, that we divide ourselves ....they win.

I'm really not sure how political Islam, particularly this new strand inspired by ISIS, is supposed to be defeated. Boots on the ground military intervention doesn't seem to work, as the Afghanistan mess shows and the pointless Iraq War created the vacuum that enabled ISIS to exist in the first place. Drone strikes alienate people, especially when civilians get caught in the crossfire. Unlike the Cold War, where the people behind the Iron Curtain were fascinated by American music, cars, jeans, etc., Islamists claim that there is nothing we have that they want, whether in terms of liberal democracy or pop culture. If hard power and soft power are out, what does that leave? I really don't have any answers.

QFT and QFT although the like function is supposed to be that :lol:

The less informed wring their hands and shout FEAR....TERROR...DOOMED!!!! They love it.

Just one minor correction. Islam is not ISIS. In no way. That is important.

[Anny Nym]

I wouldn't worry too much. Terrorism is far from new in Europe. The recent attacks are different from the partisan types of the past. ETA IRA Neo-Nazis etc. The world notices now because they choose to. It is not new.

More worrying is this ...

I think this is ill-timed and counter-productive. Especially considering that victims are not all Jewish. Actually not the sole target of ISIS. If they even have a legitimate target.

Netanyahu is Netanyahu-ing as usual... I think there wasn´t a single terror attack in recent times, he didn´t try to make some political gain out of.

QFT and QFT although the like function is supposed to be that :lol:

The less informed wring their hands and shout FEAR....TERROR...DOOMED!!!! They love it.

Just one minor correction. Islam is not ISIS. In no way. That is important.

Generally speaking ISIS is of course not a advocate for Islam .

The fundamentalist ideology behind ISIS is, however, is indeed part of a political Islam. Would it not, then ISIS would be way less sucessful.

It´s not a isolated thing.

This is a problem we have to face.

[Peas n carrots]

I don't know why anyone would want to worship a prophet who gets butthurt (or the followers get butthurt) to the extent the artist must be killed.

I'm finding myself getting more and more disillusioned with religion as I get older.

Cleopatra, I don't have an answer, but perhaps my only insight is that ISIS provides some sort of belonging or being a part of something for disenfranchised European Arab youth. I'm guessing most of the kids feel outside the pop culture of those countries to begin with, and embrace the fundie culture of their parent's homeland to have some sort of pride in themselves. It's not an excuse to kill people over, but just a partial explanation for the appeal of ISIS.

[morri]

I was like WTF when I saw the info on the TV that the event was cancelled. I don't care for carnival so i didnt know it was on even but i wouldnt know why they would go to brunswick of all places..

[Mellanya]

I'm really not sure how political Islam, particularly this new strand inspired by ISIS, is supposed to be defeated. Boots on the ground military intervention doesn't seem to work, as the Afghanistan mess shows and the pointless Iraq War created the vacuum that enabled ISIS to exist in the first place. Drone strikes alienate people, especially when civilians get caught in the crossfire. Unlike the Cold War, where the people behind the Iron Curtain were fascinated by American music, cars, jeans, etc., Islamists claim that there is nothing we have that they want, whether in terms of liberal democracy or pop culture. If hard power and soft power are out, what does that leave? I really don't have any answers.

Good points.

I think this danger of European muslim youth radicalizing is somewhat overplayed. These kids are a very very small minority, I believe there are less kids radicalizing in the direction of Islam as there are kids radicalizing into the violent right (national socialist, if you will) direction.

Nevertheless, we should be asking why this is happening all over Europe. I think it has to do with the fact that Europe (just like the US) is running a refugee/immigration policy that is utopic and damaging. Have you ever seen one of those refugee homes up close? It's a prison, and a very fucked up one at that. Refugees are lumped together in a parallel society, with no chance to receiving tools to succeed in western society. They are treated worse than zoo animals. We have nothing they want because we aren't giving them anything. We don't LET THEM. People are "othered" left and right, "put into their places" and excluded. We stigmatize them right away ("those brown people", no matter if they are African refugees or Mexican immigrants who steal our jobs and screw our women and whatnot).

Once these kids (migrational/refugee background) enter society, they are traumatized, and on top, they are still excluded. They are often pushed into low-paying jobs by teachers who think that "the foreigners" can't perform the same way a local (ie white male) could. We keep them in devestating social positions, pushing them into getthos (which self-respecting white wants to live next door to one of "those", right?). And then we are all surprised that they aren't hyped about our societies, values and all that freedom we talk about all day.

I think you hit the nail on the hat when you say that we have nothing they want. That's because we're showing them that what we have can never be attained by them. What we could do is role modelling a different society. One that is different from theirs, but also different from the one we currently live in in Europe and the US.

[OkToBeTakei]

Netanyahu is Netanyahu-ing as usual... I think there wasn´t a single terror attack in recent times, he didn´t try to make some political gain out of.

Generally speaking ISIS is of course not a advocate for Islam .

The fundamentalist ideology behind ISIS is, however, is indeed part of a political Islam. Would it not, then ISIS would be way less sucessful.

It´s not a isolated thing.

This is a problem we have to face.

Oh totally. But it's important to differentiate a few from a whole. Just as the IRA identified as catholic, ISIS form of Islam is not one recognised by the whole of Islam actually probably a small minority. Even among Sunni Muslims who they identify as, do not identify with Isis.

How it came about is as mentioned above. Afghanistan and pointless Iraqi wars. Leading to..

US officials believe IS could have as many as 31,000 fighters in Iraq and Syria. Iraq expert Hisham al-Hashimi says about 30% are "ideologues", with the remainder joining out of fear or coercion.

A significant number of IS fighters are neither Iraqi nor Syrian. The Soufan Group recently estimated that more than 12,000 foreign nationals from at least 81 countries, including 2,500 from Western states, had travelled to Syria to fight over the past three years.

Netanyahu is being roundly criticised in media sources here. His politicking is being seen as cynical. His agenda is self serving and is doing nothing to curb the rising distrust people have of Israeli politics in general. He is making many Jews very uncomfortable, that's reprehensible. I really admire the Danish rabbi.

[Coco]

Imho the current crises are really rooted in economic despair.

Why are people immigrating? To have a better life, to get some relief and a chance for security. When that hope is taken away by being disenfranchised wherever they end up, they turn to religion and hope of a better life after death. And they strike out against what seems unfair, hurting the undeserving wealthy who crush the poor and helpless. Destitute, desperate, hungry, cold = righteous anger and clinging to faith in something that lets them lash out but get eternal "rewards" for violence.

Young, jobless, desperate but religious - with no clear hope for the future except for what they gain after dying.

This is why the banking institutions in the US need to be strictly regulated. The crash of 2008 hurt the whole world with the domino effect. It's not just about keeping wall street from being greedy cheating bastards, it's about worldwide security.

[Anny Nym]

Imho the current crises are really rooted in economic despair.

Why are people immigrating? To have a better life, to get some relief and a chance for security. When that hope is taken away, they turn to religion and hope of a better life after death. And they strike out against what seems unfair, hurting the undeserving wealthy who crush the poor and helpless. Destitute, desperate, hungry, cold = righteous anger and clinging to faith in something that lets them lash out but get eternal "rewards" for violence.

This is why the banking institutions in the US need to be strictly regulated. The crash of 2008 hurt the whole world. It's not just about keeping wall street from being greedy cheating bastards, it's about worldwide security.

Economic despair, globally? You are right! strictly regulated banking institutions? I´m your gal!

Just... ISIS isn´t hurting the wealthy oil concerns (quite the opposite, they sell their looted oil to them!). ISIS/ Likeminded terrorists aren´t planting bombs inside fracking and mining company headquartes, they aren´t beheading Nestle managers... they are killing Yezide peasants and koptic day labourers, journalists, nurses and NGO workers, bystanders and comic artists. They rape 11 year old girls and torture people to death, just because... .

And many of them DID have a choice. The choice to NOT join a terrorist Group on another continent, who has no problem whatsoever to enslave, rape and kill - live on camera.

Many of the foreign ISIS fighters came from solid middle class homes and had as much chances as you and I.

While searching for root causes, we must avoid to fall into this trap of idolize them into anti- heroes "who hadn´t a choice, ´cause society, you guys!" by ourselves. (But at least one can see their PR work in action)

Anti - heroes are cool if it´s the late Heath Ledger as the Joker. In reality, it´s not Heath Ledger. It´s murderers, torturers and rapists. You... you don´t want that.

[FaustianSlip]

I'm really not sure how political Islam, particularly this new strand inspired by ISIS, is supposed to be defeated. Boots on the ground military intervention doesn't seem to work, as the Afghanistan mess shows and the pointless Iraq War created the vacuum that enabled ISIS to exist in the first place. Drone strikes alienate people, especially when civilians get caught in the crossfire. Unlike the Cold War, where the people behind the Iron Curtain were fascinated by American music, cars, jeans, etc., Islamists claim that there is nothing we have that they want, whether in terms of liberal democracy or pop culture. If hard power and soft power are out, what does that leave? I really don't have any answers.

As it happens, there's a really phenomenal article in The Atlantic about this very thing. It should really be required reading for anyone trying to understand ISIS, the organization's motivations and operational strategies and what motivates a lot of the "true believer" types that are joining (as opposed to the teenagers running off thinking they'll have an adventure, then discovering that life without iPhones and movies kind of sucks). Not all Islamists are alike, not all Islamists share the same goals (although there's some overlap between groups), and Al Qaeda and ISIS are not at all the same deal and do not operate in the same way. It's a really well-written, fascinating article.

[Cleopatra7]

More often than not, people who are attracted to terrorism and revolutionary activity are middle class or wealthy, not who Franz Fanon would call "the wretched of the Earth." Osama Bin Laden was an heir to a billion dollar fortune. The underwear bomber (I forget his name) was from one of the wealthiest banking families in Nigeria. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were wealthy Saudis and the ringleader Muhammed Atta was a middle class Egyptian. Going back further we can see the Weatherman, most of whom came from privileged backgrounds. And going even farther, Lenin and his brother (who was hanged for trying to assasinate the Tsar) were also solidly middle class.

However, as these movement gain power and money, poorer people will be used as cannon fodder, which is I think what is going on with these most recent attacks. The types of men who were attracted to the Nazi paramilitary force (the Brownshirts) were mostly poorly educated men who liked beating people up and were already pre-disposed to dislike Jews and other targets of Nazi rage. They didn't have a great political formation in Nazi dogma, but they didn't need to in order to be a good Brownshirt. I think the same dynamic is at work with these ISIS-inspired terrorists. Having a solid formation in Islamic thought or the ability to read and understand the Qu'ran in Arabic isn't necessary to be a "good jihadist," they just need to have a taste for fighting and destruction. Its not surprising that the people who committed all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in the West in the past couple of months have been radicalized while in prison for various types of petty crime. These individuals already had a chip on their shoulder and jihadism gave them a reason to be violent and be political about it, just like the Nazi Brownshirts.

[sparkles]

More often than not, people who are attracted to terrorism and revolutionary activity are middle class or wealthy, not who Franz Fanon would call "the wretched of the Earth." Osama Bin Laden was an heir to a billion dollar fortune. The underwear bomber (I forget his name) was from one of the wealthiest banking families in Nigeria. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were wealthy Saudis and the ringleader Muhammed Atta was a middle class Egyptian. Going back further we can see the Weatherman, most of whom came from privileged backgrounds. And going even farther, Lenin and his brother (who was hanged for trying to assasinate the Tsar) were also solidly middle class.

However, as these movement gain power and money, poorer people will be used as cannon fodder, which is I think what is going on with these most recent attacks. The types of men who were attracted to the Nazi paramilitary force (the Brownshirts) were mostly poorly educated men who liked beating people up and were already pre-disposed to dislike Jews and other targets of Nazi rage. They didn't have a great political formation in Nazi dogma, but they didn't need to in order to be a good Brownshirt. I think the same dynamic is at work with these ISIS-inspired terrorists. Having a solid formation in Islamic thought or the ability to read and understand the Qu'ran in Arabic isn't necessary to be a "good jihadist," they just need to have a taste for fighting and destruction. Its not surprising that the people who committed all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in the West in the past couple of months have been radicalized while in prison for various types of petty crime. These individuals already had a chip on their shoulder and jihadism gave them a reason to be violent and be political about it, just like the Nazi Brownshirts.

Exactly. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power, which is why I think the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other in a quest to be top dog.

[Burris]

More often than not, people who are attracted to terrorism and revolutionary activity are middle class or wealthy, not who Franz Fanon would call "the wretched of the Earth." Osama Bin Laden was an heir to a billion dollar fortune. The underwear bomber (I forget his name) was from one of the wealthiest banking families in Nigeria. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were wealthy Saudis and the ringleader Muhammed Atta was a middle class Egyptian. Going back further we can see the Weatherman, most of whom came from privileged backgrounds. And going even farther, Lenin and his brother (who was hanged for trying to assasinate the Tsar) were also solidly middle class.

However, as these movement gain power and money, poorer people will be used as cannon fodder, which is I think what is going on with these most recent attacks. The types of men who were attracted to the Nazi paramilitary force (the Brownshirts) were mostly poorly educated men who liked beating people up and were already pre-disposed to dislike Jews and other targets of Nazi rage. They didn't have a great political formation in Nazi dogma, but they didn't need to in order to be a good Brownshirt. I think the same dynamic is at work with these ISIS-inspired terrorists. Having a solid formation in Islamic thought or the ability to read and understand the Qu'ran in Arabic isn't necessary to be a "good jihadist," they just need to have a taste for fighting and destruction. Its not surprising that the people who committed all of the Islamic terrorist attacks in the West in the past couple of months have been radicalized while in prison for various types of petty crime. These individuals already had a chip on their shoulder and jihadism gave them a reason to be violent and be political about it, just like the Nazi Brownshirts.

The fate of the brownshirts, when their leaders no longer needed a dimwitted army of bruisers - and worse, began to see them as a threat - should give these young Jihadis serious pause:

These people mean as much to their leaders as the men they kill mean to them.