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Adeye upset at clinic practicing sound medicine


mystikchick17

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Looks like Adeye's embryo transfer is temporarily on hold because the big bad mean clinic makes you sign a waiver saying that unless they agree to selective abortion in the event that more than two embryos take, they won't implant more than two embryos.

BUT, all four embryos must be unfrozen at once because of how they were frozen. And since Adeye believes these embryos are totally real people and have been longing for a family for a decade (which despite being medically impossible...), she can't unfreeze them all and then only implant two. So the transfer is now on hold while they wait for Jesus to clear obstacles try to find some shady-ass clinic to go ahead and do the transfer for all four embryos at once. Which I'm sure they will do after much praying.

All I can muster up is "for fuck's sake."

nogreaterjoymom.com/2014/10/fighting-for-life.html

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this one commenter - krista - has me puzzled with her comment.

Anything over triplets is seen as a failure in the world of infertility, hence the reason the fertility clinic wants you to sign the paper. To them it is all about the numbers and not about the life they assist to create.

um, what? in what world does that make logical sense? number one, how is that a "failure". the selective reduction is for the mother's health and to ensure that all babies are carried as close to term as possible, but nothing about that says "failure". a definition of "failure" to me, would be nothing implanting. (and even so there could be many factors involved with that, some completely out of anyone's control. just a disclaimer.)

secondly, if it were "all about the numbers" then why would they want to selectively reduce at all? wouldn't that mean more babies would be born? more babies means higher numbers, right? selectively reducing means less babies, which means less numbers, right?

fuck, i just gave myself a headache.

at least commenter adrienne has some sense.

If we drove our car off a cliff, we wouldn't reasonably say, "If God wanted to he could save me and prevent all my injuries." Everyone would agree that's an insane test of God's love, devotion, etc. But we can say, "Let's create a horrifically high-risk pregnancy, because it's in God's hands." That doesn't make sense to me.

THANK YOU, JAYSAS, SOMEBODY GETS IT!!11!1!eleventy!!

i also take umbrage with the fact that she insists that the clinic is whitewashing the "ugly" term of abortion by calling it selective reduction.

lady, fuck you, first of all. secondly, maybe take your head out of your ass so you can get a clue. in the medical world - the one that you are sticking your nose so deeply into right now, MY world - "abortion" can mean a number of things that end a pregnancy, not just the mechanical or chemical means that women sometimes choose to use to end said pregnancy. by using the term "selective reduction" it specifies the procedure, making everything clear to all parties involved. we in the medical field HAVE to be specific, because we have so many laws and standards that apply to us, if we aren't specific in one circumstance, it could come back and bite us in the ass. so, to help prevent that, we start making EVERYTHING specific and spelled out, just to cover our asses on all bases in the offchance it comes back. sometimes (from what i've seen personally) there are times when it seems unnecessary. but living in this world where a multi-million dollar fine is leveled at a hospital for a severe breach of information that THEY THEMSELVES CAUGHT AND REPORTED...because it still happened, and that's still the penalty...yeah, we tend to get ancy when non-specific terms are used. so fuck you very much.

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That's kind of an interesting clause because I don't see how they could enforce it.

They can't AFAIK, but they can refuse to continue to see her as a patient. She might be able to find a sympathetic OB who would work with her, but your run of the mill OB isn't going to take on a high order multiple pregnancy. I doubt their malpractice insurance would let them, too much of a risk. She's should go to someone who specializes in high-risk pregnancies (a perinatologist or Maternal-Fetal Med OB) and these doctors will have to have privileges at a hospital with a NICU to ensure a safe delivery. They may be hesitant to take on a patient who has already not followed the orders of her original doc. Doctors are not obligated to see you and continue with you as a patient. (Obviously the exception of the EMTALA exists, but unless she is in active labor or in another emergency situation, a hospital or doctor has no obligation to treat her)

It may not be an issue if you live in an area with a high concentration of such doctors and hospitals, but in rural parts of the US, there may only be one or two such doctors for 250-500 miles. I haven't read her blog, so I don't know where she lives.

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That's kind of an interesting clause because I don't see how they could enforce it.

it's a clause to protect them from liability. so, if a woman does get more than two to implant, she will need to get a reduction in order to continue in their care. nothing would prevent her from seeking another obgyn or clinic to continue in her care if she chose not to do so. but, for example, let's say four implanted and the woman chose to not reduce. when the clinic refuses to see her from then on out, she can't come back and try to file any kind of lawsuit against them, because here's the paper she signed saying she'd selectively reduce! also, if something does happen during the high order multiple pregnancy and there are complications, again she can't come back to the clinic for any damages because of that waiver. this clinic just doesn't want to take on that kind of risk, which is well within their right. and it's well within adeye's right to find another clinic who is more fudgey on that kind of thing.

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They can't AFAIK, but they can refuse to continue to see her as a patient. She might be able to find a sympathetic OB who would work with her, but your run of the mill OB isn't going to take on a high order multiple pregnancy. I doubt their malpractice insurance would let them, too much of a risk. She's should go to someone who specializes in high-risk pregnancies (a perinatologist or Maternal-Fetal Med OB) and these doctors will have to have privileges at a hospital with a NICU to ensure a safe delivery. They may be hesitant to take on a patient who has already not followed the orders of her original doc. Doctors are not obligated to see you and continue with you as a patient. (Obviously the exception of the EMTALA exists, but unless she is in active labor or in another emergency situation, a hospital or doctor has no obligation to treat her)

It may not be an issue if you live in an area with a high concentration of such doctors and hospitals, but in rural parts of the US, there may only be one or two such doctors for 250-500 miles. I haven't read her blog, so I don't know where she lives.

Forgive my ignorance -- but wouldn't the fertility clinic stop seeing her in any case, once the embryos were implanted and seen to be doing well? I would think the Doctors in their office aren't the same ones who she would see for regular prenatal care and delivery - even if she did have high order multiples.

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I guess I just don't get this.

Isn't this the flip side of abortion?

You aren't getting the results you want so you use medical intervention to make it happen - either create a pregnancy or end one.

If you and your husband cannot conceive naturally, is that not God's message to you? Why is medical intervention okay sometimes but not others?

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God but she is delusional.

First:

A woman can walk into any Planned Parenthood and demand an abortion—even in the second trimester.

Hahahahhahaha NO. I would direct Adeye to this post: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/ ... ans-maria/ She is clearly woefully uninformed, as greater and greater restrictions are being placed on abortion across the country - even first trimester abortions.

Second:

I lost my right to choose what’s best for me and my family somewhere along the line.

You and your daft husband are the only ones who think that trying to add quadruplets who are likely to have special needs to a family of nine children - most with severe special needs - is "best" for any of the parties involved. And you actually still have a choice - just thaw and implant the embryos yourself! I'm sure Anthony can do it, 'cos !

And last!

Some have said, “Just sign it, there is nothing they can do about it.†Nope! Telling them that I would be willing to do it when we have less than zero intention of following through with it is just plain dishonest. Cannot do that either.

Guys, not only is Adeye a saint for taking on four unwanted little biracial special-needs embryos who cry themselves to sleep because they do not have a family, but she's going to do it honestly! She's going to find the shadiest, bible-thumpingest doctor who will insist on no safety or liability procedures unless Jesus Christ himself okays it. Send cash!

:disgust:

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Whoa. WTF kind of fertility clinic is this??? They're all individually packed now, and have been for years and years, but before that they were frozen maybe two at a time. I'm not sure I'm buying what she's selling.

Besides, the clinic will always transfer two, just won't transfer all four (letting two DIE). If that's a problem, you can always transfer embryos to another clinic. Maybe you can get quadruplets and that would just be a freaking awesome outcome for everyone.

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Why is medical intervention okay sometimes but not others?

because it's only okay when it's what said fundie wants...err, i mean, what JESUS tells them.

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Whoa. WTF kind of fertility clinic is this??? They're all individually packed now, and have been for years and years, but before that they were frozen maybe two at a time. I'm not sure I'm buying what she's selling.

Besides, the clinic will always transfer two, just won't transfer all four (letting two DIE). If that's a problem, you can always transfer embryos to another clinic. Maybe you can get quadruplets and that would just be a freaking awesome outcome for everyone.

Interesting! I assume you have some experience in this area-- do you know when the began to be individually packed?

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Interesting! I assume you have some experience in this area-- do you know when the began to be individually packed?

I have a family friend who did this in the 90s and paid a tiny amount of money to have them frozen in singles instead of twos, and it was not exactly a cutting edge place. They don't even use those freezing methods anymore, well, nowhere good does, so that choice doesn't even make sense today. Just saying it's possible to be in two sleeves of two, but that's not as dramatic, is it?

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I have a family friend who did this in the 90s and paid a tiny amount of money to have them frozen in singles instead of twos, and it was not exactly a cutting edge place. They don't even use those freezing methods anymore, well, nowhere good does, so that choice doesn't even make sense today. Just saying it's possible to be in two sleeves of two, but that's not as dramatic, is it?

don't tell me she's trying to go the route of razing ruth. i mean, she does have several heavily special needs children, and i know that there will be lots and lots of costs associated with that...

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I think I'm still stuck on the adamant refusal to see this as a sign of God's will. God doesn't want you to have the embryos implanted after He told you to do it via prayer you decided to pursue this harebrained idea, therefore you got given this out - one that lets you pretend to be a martyr. But no, this is the work of THE ENEMY! And Evil Liberals! And stuff! And you're going to take the persecution complex even further off the damn cliff.

Fundies, man.

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I guess I just don't get this.

Isn't this the flip side of abortion?

You aren't getting the results you want so you use medical intervention to make it happen - either create a pregnancy or end one.

If you and your husband cannot conceive naturally, is that not God's message to you? Why is medical intervention okay sometimes but not others?

To the bolded, I know what you are trying to say, but it comes off as cold. I most likely cannot conceive naturally. I will most likely need medical intervention. I have a condition that has scarred my tubes. I don't believe in the Christian god, but to say that if there's a god, the message is that because I cannot have children naturally, "god" is saying I should not have children, is frankly rude and wrong. I love children. I want to be a mother. I like to think I would be a wonderful mom. Not perfect, but still good enough.

I say all this because I have heard similar things over and over already since I found out. If you don't want a child and get pregnant anyway, is that "God's" message that you are supposed to have children? I think most of us would say no. It's the same in the opposite scenario.

Back to Adeye...she's a total nutcase.

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I don't think they can force someone to do selective reduction,even if they sign an agreement saying they will.

I imagine the agreement actually says something along the lines of them not being responsible for the outcome if selective reduction is not done,in the event that more than 2 of the embryos implant.

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I guess I just don't get this.

Isn't this the flip side of abortion?

You aren't getting the results you want so you use medical intervention to make it happen - either create a pregnancy or end one.

If you and your husband cannot conceive naturally, is that not God's message to you? Why is medical intervention okay sometimes but not others?

No, Adeye is actually a special case unto herself. She had her tubes tied voluntarily after her third bio-child was born (he's now like 8 or 9, I want to say). This is stemming from a desire to rescue the orphans, not be quiverfull - these embryos were frozen a decade ago and never implanted because the mother's life circumstances changed, but they are available to be adopted. Adeye sees this as her new way of saving orphans, because the ones she adopted from orphanages in China and Ukraine weren't apparently, enough. Now that she knows about embryonic discarding, she MUST SAVE THE EMBRYOS.

Incidentally, the prohibition on medical intervention to create a pregnancy is, to my knowledge, a much more Catholic than Evangelical Christian mindset.

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um, what? in what world does that make logical sense? number one, how is that a "failure".

It's a failure because the goal is a healthy pregnancy, and triplets and above create a high-risk situation. So if you look at failure as only being non-pregnancy, then it's a very big win, but when you look at it from the view of trying to create a healthy pregnancy, then you're starting right off with a high-risk situation that almost guarantees preemies and time in the NICU.

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To the bolded, I know what you are trying to say, but it comes off as cold. I most likely cannot conceive naturally. I will most likely need medical intervention.

I don't think BM agrees with that, but is pointing out the hypocrisy of fundies. They say if you get pregnant, that it's God's will and you're supposed to carry to term no matter what, and keep doing that until God "closes the womb." But some of them also have no problem with NOT seeing this as God telling them no kids, or no more kids. That's hypocritical of them.

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I don't think BM agrees with that, but is pointing out the hypocrisy of fundies. They say if you get pregnant, that it's God's will and you're supposed to carry to term no matter what, and keep doing that until God "closes the womb." But some of them also have no problem with NOT seeing this as God telling them no kids, or no more kids. That's hypocritical of them.

Which is why I said I got what she was trying to say. I just think it could come off as cold. A reminder that, yes, while it is hypocritical in Adeye's case and I completely agree on that fact, that statement in and of itself can be offensive since there are many who cannot get pregnant so easily. Of course, I do not doubt some of the people we discuss actually would agree with that statement. I am thinking asses like Lori A for one. I do not think Brownie actually feels that way though.

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DGayle, the aim is not just a healthy pregnancy, but healthy children. It is well established tha twins have higher risk of most complications, from cerebral palsy to learning disorders.

it's a clause to protect them from liability. so, if a woman does get more than two to implant, she will need to get a reduction in order to continue in their care. nothing would prevent her from seeking another obgyn or clinic to continue in her care if she chose not to do so. but, for example, let's say four implanted and the woman chose to not reduce. when the clinic refuses to see her from then on out, she can't come back and try to file any kind of lawsuit against them, because here's the paper she signed saying she'd selectively reduce! also, if something does happen during the high order multiple pregnancy and there are complications, again she can't come back to the clinic for any damages because of that waiver. this clinic just doesn't want to take on that kind of risk, which is well within their right. and it's well within adeye's right to find another clinic who is more fudgey on that kind of thing.

It also helps the clinic have that conversation, and have it seriously, with their patients. Intentionally conceiving even twins is sacrificing the health of the children for the wants of the parents. Unfortunately, it's often financial - since insurance won't cover IVF, people do IUI, which has a higher chance of multiples, and they transfer two or more embryos to try and get a baby when funds are limited. Ifinsurance covered it they could make IUI rare and put in place trict guidelines for transfer of more than one embryo. There have been studies done showing that this saves money because of the xtra costs of NICU and ongoing care fr twins and HOM.

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DGayle, the aim is not just a healthy pregnancy, but healthy children. It is well established tha twins have higher risk of most complications, from cerebral palsy to learning disorders.

It also helps the clinic have that conversation, and have it seriously, with their patients. Intentionally conceiving even twins is sacrificing the health of the children for the wants of the parents. Unfortunately, it's often financial - since insurance won't cover IVF, people do IUI, which has a higher chance of multiples, and they transfer two or more embryos to try and get a baby when funds are limited. Ifinsurance covered it they could make IUI rare and put in place trict guidelines for transfer of more than one embryo. There have been studies done showing that this saves money because of the xtra costs of NICU and ongoing care fr twins and HOM.

true, but gods forbid insurance companies make sense

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This post truly infuriates me. What a self important entitled bitch.

Since when do you have the right to demand a doctor, or a fertility clinic, put your health AND that of the potential embryos in danger and do medically unethical procedures just because you are so daft you think this is about what YOU want done with your body and four embroyos that you have "adopted" already?

Furthermore, she was traveling out of state because this clinic in question is one of the BEST for this procedure, but part of how they are the best is that they follow ethical and medical guidelines and won't let you sign a waiver stating you know you are being an idiot and won't sue them for your lunacy.

So fine, find a doctor with no morals who will play god with you, but don't throw a temper tantrum because you thought this clinic would buy into your martyr complex and let you do whatever you wanted with THEIR medical skills, THEIR personnel, THEIR technology and instruments. It may be your body lady, but you do NOT own the fertility clinic, nor the staff and doctors who work there.

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