How undereducated are Christian Fundie homeschoolers?

[gustava]

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_chr ... n_partner/

[doggie]

Yes I read that a few days Go. They don't understand how much it actually hurts their cause.

[neuroticcat]

Probably worth clarifying that the article is particularly looking at fundamentalist homeschoolers.

There are plenty of well-educated homeschoolers out there, and homeschooling offers some great ways to broaden a child's education and tailor learning to each individual child.

BUT it also gives plenty of opportunity for mediocre education and indoctrination of all kinds.

[Four is Enough]

Probably worth clarifying that the article is particularly looking at fundamentalist homeschoolers.

There are plenty of well-educated homeschoolers out there, and homeschooling offers some great ways to broaden a child's education and tailor learning to each individual child.

BUT it also gives plenty of opportunity for mediocre education and indoctrination of all kinds.

I agree with this. I have friends who homeschool, and they do a LOT of work preparing lessons, arranging outings, and providing opportunities for their children to learn, interact with others, and do service. Of the high school/college aged homeschooled children I know, they've all seamlessly integrated into the public school system or college life. Their one complaint? The children who have brought their own parents to school with them... not a one of my homeschooled kid friends has helicopter (or indoctrinated) parents.

[SamE]

My kids go to Catholic school. My 3rd grader has a kid in her class who's always been homeschooled. The kids in her class are around 7-8 years old. This kid is almost 11.

At least someone recognized that he wasn't getting a good education and made a change.

[salex]

I will say that my fundie light cousin and his wife homeschooled. Their oldest got advanced degrees in math, the rest, so far have all got at least bachelors degrees at normal state universities (the girls in nursing, the guys in business... mom's a nurse, dad's in business) and frankly, their kids are very educated and well rounded. I heard their youngest perform music he had written and he is really very good. It helps that both parents are college educated and brilliant, and it helps that they eventally got into co-ops to supplement what they might be weak in-- but their kids are amazing, grounded, etc, even if I think some of the stuff I saw on their whiteboard about revelation is scarey.

Some other relatives who home school, or go to weird private christian school? not so much.

[neuroticcat]

Okay, having read the whole article, I think it's pretty unbalanced. I mean, the author admits there is no hard statistical evidence and goes on to list a few anecdotal stories of homeschooling gone wrong. While we all know religious indoctrination is going on in Quiverfull homeschooling families, what percentage of the nation's homeschooled kids are they? Also, there are plenty of kids falling through the cracks in the public school as well, so it's not like you can condemn an entire system based on the times it's failed kids.

The author does go on to say there are some homeschooling families who are doing it "right", in her opinion, but she doesn't really give a description of what they are doing and kind of dismisses as frivolous away the whole idea of unschooling as an alternative philosophy of education.

It's not homeschooling that's the problem - it's the destructive religious beliefs, and we live in a country that protects the right of individuals to hold those beliefs. Until the state starts regulating religion - which is a VERY different conversation - there's not much to be said about regulating homeschooling.

And there is something relevant about different educational goals. For example, the Amish schools do not have the same educational goals as regular public school, primarily because it is irrelevant to the Amish lifestyle. So it is more important that they learn the skills of running a farm, a trade, etc. Now. I'm NOT advocating that the Quiverfull lifestyle is a good one (obviously), but it does make sense that they would not see the educational goals of the public school system as relevant to their "keeper of the home" and "support your family on a single-income" goals. As much as I disagree with fundamentalist philosophies, I do stand by their right to have them and to not have the state interfere in that.

[browncoatslytherin]

i would agree with the fundie homeschoolers. although, my mother homeschooled me during most of my elementary years, and despite being fundie (and ati for a spell), i was taught extremely well. i think her being a teacher previously helped in that regard, but i would count myself as an exception.

[Sister Mozz]

Fundamentalist homeschoolers are definitely lax in education. I'm a product of that. My math and science knowledge were about 9th grade level when I "graduated." However, I have worked hard to overcome the deficit and now work in education. We do see homeschool transfers who regularly test behind, but at least like SamE said, someone saw the need and is making a better educational choice going forward.

I do think homeschooling can be done correctly - but it takes a lot of work. I have homeschool graduate friends who have gone on to become nurses or teachers. If the parents aren't willing to go to the effort and put in the work, I don't think they should be homeschooling.

[Feberin]

I used to run homeschooled programs at a library. It always amazed me the huge difference you see among homeschooled kids the same age. Some are way ahead of grade level while others seem to have a very limited education. Typically those kids would be the ones to list the bible as their favorite book.

I feel like overall I know more homeschoolers who are giving their children an amazing education. However since I mostly know the type who will bring their children to library programs that's going to skew the statistic.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

And how it damages children

Interviews Vykie Garrison and several others who give an insight into how bad the educational neglect can be

salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

[Toothfairy]

How are fundies suppose to take over the world with no education??

[lemonhead]

How are fundies suppose to take over the world with ni education??

My random thoughts, having grown up fundie with parents involved in the early grassroots right-wing movement of the 80's...The idea is to instill such rabid fear and hatred of the government that those children will grow up to vote and campaign aggressively and tirelessly, getting the message out in a much louder and provocative manner than moderates and liberals, motivating their base and thus drawing in much larger numbers to the polls. So far it seems to be working. Here in Texas, at least, the Tea Party is still knocking more moderate Repubs out of office (note that in Texas, "moderate Repubs"=far right wing Repubs in the rest of the country). And there's at least a decent chance the right-wingers will take over the U.S. House in the midterms. In short, charisma and the ability to instill paranoia and rage is more important than education.

As to the OP, I was homeschooled by a mother who was a high school dropout. She went back and got her GED, but she was completely unprepared to homeschool my brother and me all the way through 12th grade. I still managed to get through graduate school, but it was in spite of my homeschool education, not because of it.

[dilannsmom]

I teach in a public high school. My daughter has attended private and public schools. I have friends who homeschool.

I do have some concerns with homeschooling, although I know that it can be done well. But, with a lack of oversight who is holding the parents accountable for educating their children to the extent that they can/will be productive members of society (i.e. employable at some point in time). For example, a woman at my IFB church (we are not crazy no pants, no work outside the home, give your man sex whenever he wants it because you have a vagina and therefore must submit to the penis) who is homseschooling her 5 kids yet she dropped out of high school at 16 because she was pregnant! Who is ensuring that her children are learning the skills that they need to be successful? All 5 of the children are anxiety ridden, dislike even small crowds of friendly faces and REFUSE to speak in a group of more than 3 friends. Somebody needs to help these kids. But because they are flying under the radar that isn't happening.

[felicity]

Well, I homeschool my kids -ages: 7, newly 5, and 2 - and I am pregnant. These sorts of articles really drive me bonkers because they misrepresent pretty much ALL of the homeschoolers I know.

My 7 (almost 8) year old was in public school for kindergarten (in a top rated district in California), but we pulled her after kindergarten because she was then (age 5) reading at a 7th grade reading level and doing 4th grade math at home. She is about to turn 8 and would be in 2nd grade based on her age - but at home, she is completing middle school math (moving on to Alegbra 1 in a week or so) and reads at a 10th grade level.

My five year old (who has never been to typical school) is reading at a 5th grade reading level and is finishing up 3rd grade math. She is also realllly good at chess.

Both my 7 year old and 5 year old take piano lessons (my 7 year old is playing Bach - the real thing, not arranged pieces) - they both take Spanish lessons from a native speaker - and they are regularly involved in theatre class, art classes, and are members of swim team. They have lots of friends, and we are always out at the parks and playgrounds, meeting up with both public/private school friends and homeschooled friends. We live in a very diverse area (large metro city) - and our kids regularly go to art exhibits, museums, and are very comfortable around people of all races and ethnicities.

So....I kind of get defensive when I hear homeschoolers (even Christian homeschoolers) lumped into one category. Even though my kids have basically a secular curriculum, many of my homeschooling friends use Christian curricula and their kids are doing great - above grade level. The fact is that Christians have built up a pretty formidable homeschooling curricula - so sometimes the best products on the market are Christian-based. (Believe me, I have explored A LOT of different curriculum options) - I think secular homeschooling options are catching up - but there are certain products that are Christian and are awesome for learning/teaching.

It also drives me crazy when people talk about how you have to have a degree in education to homeschool because statistically, children whose parents don't have education degrees end up testing higher than children whose parents hold degrees in education. I have three degrees (bachelor's, master's and a law degree- all from very well regarded schools, all graduated with honors, and I passed the California Bar Exam 39 weeks pregnant) - and yet - I feel like those degrees and accomplishments aren't AT ALL necessary for teaching my children how to read, write, and many of the other academic pursuits. Really, it just takes an involved and focused parent with a desire to help their children learn...

[ThatSnark]

This post reminds me of my sister-in-law, who is mother to six children, the first four of whom are about 18 months apart each. She and bro-in-law drank the Kool-Aid in the early 90s and tried to homeschool this cohort of kids; mother-in-law came for a visit, found SIL close to a nervous breakdown with four-under-eight or whatever the age was at that point, and marched the oldest two to a Christian private school and paid for two years' tuition. Both children, aged 8 and 7 at the time, could not identify alphabet letters or numbers. Mom was overwhelmed with too many kids, a demanding husband, an enormous house, and pregnancies; she has never been an organized person and this was just not a lifestyle that was a good idea for them. They lived in Alabama at the time which had no requirements for reporting or submitting curricula.

The eldest daughter is bright, learned to read in school, and ended up going to boarding school near us. She never developed very much academically and decided against finishing college, after starting in several, but is good at music. The second, a boy, did a lot better academically and socially, and finishes college this year.

I'm a literacy tutor and I have a former homeschool student who wants to learn how to spell and get his GED so he can go to community college. He is not a strong reader at age 19, but reports that there was little education in the homeschool and more trade-learning. *sigh*

I'm not sure what would have happened if my mother-in-law hadn't intervened. She was horrified that an 8-year-old didn't know her letters.

[nelliebelle1197]

Well, I homeschool my kids -ages: 7, newly 5, and 2 - and I am pregnant. These sorts of articles really drive me bonkers because they misrepresent pretty much ALL of the homeschoolers I know.

My 7 (almost 8) year old was in public school for kindergarten (in a top rated district in California), but we pulled her after kindergarten because she was then (age 5) reading at a 7th grade reading level and doing 4th grade math at home. She is about to turn 8 and would be in 2nd grade based on her age - but at home, she is completing middle school math (moving on to Alegbra 1 in a week or so) and reads at a 10th grade level.

My five year old (who has never been to typical school) is reading at a 5th grade reading level and is finishing up 3rd grade math. She is also realllly good at chess.

Both my 7 year old and 5 year old take piano lessons (my 7 year old is playing Bach - the real thing, not arranged pieces) - they both take Spanish lessons from a native speaker - and they are regularly involved in theatre class, art classes, and are members of swim team. They have lots of friends, and we are always out at the parks and playgrounds, meeting up with both public/private school friends and homeschooled friends. We live in a very diverse area (large metro city) - and our kids regularly go to art exhibits, museums, and are very comfortable around people of all races and ethnicities.

So....I kind of get defensive when I hear homeschoolers (even Christian homeschoolers) lumped into one category. Even though my kids have basically a secular curriculum, many of my homeschooling friends use Christian curricula and their kids are doing great - above grade level. The fact is that Christians have built up a pretty formidable homeschooling curricula - so sometimes the best products on the market are Christian-based. (Believe me, I have explored A LOT of different curriculum options) - I think secular homeschooling options are catching up - but there are certain products that are Christian and are awesome for learning/teaching.

It also drives me crazy when people talk about how you have to have a degree in education to homeschool because statistically, children whose parents don't have education degrees end up testing higher than children whose parents hold degrees in education. I have three degrees (bachelor's, master's and a law degree- all from very well regarded schools, all graduated with honors, and I passed the California Bar Exam 39 weeks pregnant) - and yet - I feel like those degrees and accomplishments aren't AT ALL necessary for teaching my children how to read, write, and many of the other academic pursuits. Really, it just takes an involved and focused parent with a desire to help their children learn...

I thought the article was a very clear dissection of a very particular type of fundamentalist Quiverfull homeschoolers. Did you read the article? The first half is about wacko Christianists. Another portion discusses people who are doing it well. She is basically saying the government and public schools are failing the kids with wacko parents because so many states have allowed ideology to trump the best interest of kids. Your anecdote proves nothing about the larger issue of educational neglect by Quiverfull and other extremists, which is what the author is addressing. As a successful and diligent homeschooler, you cannot ignore that your situation may not be typical for kids in states with low to zero supervision of homeschoolers whose parents think Bible copying is a substitute for curriculum.

[Coco]

Well, I homeschool my kids -ages: 7, newly 5, and 2 - and I am pregnant. These sorts of articles really drive me bonkers because they misrepresent pretty much ALL of the homeschoolers I know.

My 7 (almost 8) year old was in public school for kindergarten (in a top rated district in California), but we pulled her after kindergarten because she was then (age 5) reading at a 7th grade reading level and doing 4th grade math at home. She is about to turn 8 and would be in 2nd grade based on her age - but at home, she is completing middle school math (moving on to Alegbra 1 in a week or so) and reads at a 10th grade level.

My five year old (who has never been to typical school) is reading at a 5th grade reading level and is finishing up 3rd grade math. She is also realllly good at chess.

Both my 7 year old and 5 year old take piano lessons (my 7 year old is playing Bach - the real thing, not arranged pieces) - they both take Spanish lessons from a native speaker - and they are regularly involved in theatre class, art classes, and are members of swim team. They have lots of friends, and we are always out at the parks and playgrounds, meeting up with both public/private school friends and homeschooled friends. We live in a very diverse area (large metro city) - and our kids regularly go to art exhibits, museums, and are very comfortable around people of all races and ethnicities.

So....I kind of get defensive when I hear homeschoolers (even Christian homeschoolers) lumped into one category. Even though my kids have basically a secular curriculum, many of my homeschooling friends use Christian curricula and their kids are doing great - above grade level. The fact is that Christians have built up a pretty formidable homeschooling curricula - so sometimes the best products on the market are Christian-based. (Believe me, I have explored A LOT of different curriculum options) - I think secular homeschooling options are catching up - but there are certain products that are Christian and are awesome for learning/teaching.

It also drives me crazy when people talk about how you have to have a degree in education to homeschool because statistically, children whose parents don't have education degrees end up testing higher than children whose parents hold degrees in education. I have three degrees (bachelor's, master's and a law degree- all from very well regarded schools, all graduated with honors, and I passed the California Bar Exam 39 weeks pregnant) - and yet - I feel like those degrees and accomplishments aren't AT ALL necessary for teaching my children how to read, write, and many of the other academic pursuits. Really, it just takes an involved and focused parent with a desire to help their children learn...

This article is talking about how homeschooling in a culture of fear is a disservice to children in oppressive religious settings. Fundie mothers are led to believe that homeschooling is the only way to keep their children safe. It results in educational neglect because of simple lack of time or talent from the parents. This is what the article is trying to bring to light.

Other home educated children do very well, in a custom-made atmosphere that allows them to flourish. Surely you'd agree that your children would be brilliant in whatever setting they were taught. It's like the homeschooler urban legend about the little boy who taught himself to read while still tiny, just by studying the world map hanging over his crib. Of course, to begin with, his parents were very intelligent and the type to hang a world map by a crib. :lol: Brilliant children like yours deserve the wide-open opportunities that homeschooling can provide.

The real tragedy is that fundie parents feel that homeschooling is their only option. Many may not be equipped to do it properly even if they truly want their children to be well-educated.

[felicity]

I thought the article was a very clear dissection of a very particular type of fundamentalist Quiverfull homeschoolers. Did you read the article? The first half is about wacko Christianists. Another portion discusses people who are doing it well. She is basically saying the government and public schools are failing the kids with wacko parents because so many states have allowed ideology to trump the best interest of kids. Your anecdote proves nothing about the larger issue of educational neglect by Quiverfull and other extremists, which is what the author is addressing. As a successful and diligent homeschooler, you cannot ignore that your situation may not be typical for kids in states with low to zero supervision of homeschoolers whose parents think Bible copying is a substitute for curriculum.

I did read the (poorly written) article. Who gets to decide who is worthy to homeschool? Who gets to decide what is "wacko" religious philosophy, what is extremist, and what is acceptable? My issue is that once you have the government deciding who is fit to homeschool, and which practices are acceptable - it means that everyone (athetists, moderate Christians, Muslims, etc.) all fall under the same umbrella. What curtails religious freedom for the outliers restricts religious and educational freedoms for everyone. Restricting these freedoms for homeschoolers means that private schools will also be regulated - all private schools. So - you know, that's the reality and what this article fails to address.

I mean - I know MANY kids in the public school district who are failing (I live in CA, which has pretty horrible, underfunded public schools). And many of these kids who are diagnosed with ADHD and other issues at school, they come home and are doing much better in a homeschooled environment.

Obviously, not every child is going to be at or above the 50% mark in standardized testing. So, when there are certain benchmarks placed on a child's performance in school (homeschooled or otherwise) - and if that is made to be a measure of the teacher or parent's aptitude at teaching - then certainly, MANY public schools are falling short of that.

I am not some great homeschooling mom - my kids are very bright, independent, self-directed learners. If I had a child with a learning disability who was not learning well in school, I would take that child out. And who knows how that child would do at home (vs. at school?) Probably better than in an overcrowded, underfunded classroom - but maybe they would still be failing.

I mean, obviously - my kids are an easy example of why homeschooling CAN work (because the public school system was failing my child - she learned NOTHING at school and was instead put in a corner every day to read to herself alone bc they didn't know what to do with her)...

So - I guess it's just a slipperly slope. The idea that government can regulate homeschoolers is tricky because it puts undue restrictions on all families. Just as I don't want the government dictating how many kids I have, or my ability to marry the person of my choice - I don't want them interfering in the education of my children. Obviously, children need protection and need to be shielded from abuse, etc. - But in many situations, just because a child is not in mainstream public school - it doesn't mean that the child is receiving an inferior education.

I found the article completely lacking any real data or statistics or any sort of hard facts about homeschoolers - it was largely anectdotal and as I mentioned before - it does not define what an outlier Christian fundamentalist is - and who gets to decide what that means. For all we know, it could include anyone who believes in God. Who gets to decide what is wacko and what's not?

[formergothardite]

I was homeschooled and I know lots of people who were homeschooled, and I have to say it drives me crazy that it is almost impossible to discuss problems with homeschooling without people dragging up public schools. Usually when I'm having discussing this subject with former homeschoolers who received horrible educations because of religious beliefs or their parents weren't capable of teaching them it is always brought up how frustrating it is that people often deflect the conversation to the problems of public school or they downplay the educational neglect in homeschooling.

Let's stick to discussing homeschooling and the lack of oversight. There is so little oversight that no one can actually say how well homeschoolers are doing compared to public schools. The studies that are often brought up to "prove" homeschoolers are doing better are all completely useless, one of the studies that is often brought up actually concluded that the children in the study would have done just as well in public school as they did being homeschooled, but that part of the study is usually left off the discussion. There needs to be some way to track and see how homeschoolers are actually doing when it comes to educating their children. Just letting parents get a free for all where they can get away with not providing their children with an education should not be an option.

[gustava]

i would agree with the fundie homeschoolers. although, my mother homeschooled me during most of my elementary years, and despite being fundie (and ati for a spell), i was taught extremely well. i think her being a teacher previously helped in that regard, but i would count myself as an exception.

Did she teach you to begin sentences with capital letters?

[RosyDaisy]

My autistic nephew is being homeschooled in a liberal Christian environment by my sister and our cousin (who has a special needs child and has a degree in education from a secular college). My nephew is thriving. Public school wasn't meeting his educational needs. Outside of homeschooling, he interacts with kids his own age and is not kept isolated. As for the Christian aspect, my cousin is mainstream, fundie. That part of her homeschool curriculum consists only of prayer before lunch and half-hour bible study My sister and her ex-husband have no objection to this, because the religious aspect is very similar to their own beliefs, which is liberal.

Because my nephew is autistic, he doesn't really understand what is being said in church or Sunday school. So, including Bible study on his level is great for him. He is not being indoctrinated or forced to drink the fundie kool-aid.

My sister and I are practicing liberal Christians, and she and her ex husband want to raise their children to be the same. My youngest niece goes to pubic school and all of her educational needs are being met. She makes honor role, is a cheerleader, and somewhat of a social butterfly. Of course Bible study is not part of the curriculum. However, she goes to church and understands what is being said during services.

Not all Christian homeschoolers are fundamentalists or quiverfull. However, my nephew is the exception not the rule when it comes to Christian homeschooling.

[RosyDaisy]

It's not homeschooling that's the problem - it's the destructive religious beliefs

QFT! It's so sad seeing children getting proper education because of their parents' fundie religious beliefs.

[nolongerIFBx]

My three siblings and myself were home schooled. They all have bachelors degrees. I should get mine in May. My oldest brother attended a fundie college and then decided to go for an accredited degree and CLEPed out of many of his classes. He took the GRE and a few masters level classes but has decided to devote more attention to his job than further schooling. I attended a fundie school and got an associates before deciding that as a single woman I would never be able to support myself on a Christian school teacher's salary. My university did not allow many CLEP tests (only very specific topics, no general studies) so I started at the beginning (actually more the middle since the evening classes offered were usually junior/senior classes). My sister went to college right out of high school as did my youngest brother. We have all been above average students, making the deans and presidents lists. My oldest brother and sister both graduated in less than 4 years.

Difficulties: I did take remedial algebra. However, I will freely say I was highly resistant in HS to learning it. That wasn't my parent's fault. It had also been 20 years since I had done any algebra so I don't think that needing a reminder was all that horrible. There were public school graduates in my class who had been out of HS less than two years. I was not immediately accepted into a state university and attended as a non-degree seeking student for a few years. My sister also was not accepted immediately, attended as a non-degree seeking student and then switched schools. She says that she felt unprepared in math and science and she had more math than I did in HS.

However, our education was my parent's priority. School was done first before anything else. My parents wanted us to have a good education. My parents were IFBx but they were not Quiverfull so my mother only had 4 students and that for only a very few years as my brothers are 12 years apart. I don't think my brothers or I would consider ourselves as undereducated in HS. My sister does.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Did she teach you to begin sentences with capital letters?

:roll: