How undereducated are Christian Fundie homeschoolers?

[chaotic life]

Illinois has NO requirements for homeschoolers. You don't even have to notify the school district that you are homeschooling.

My husband dropped out of school in 8th grade, primarily because he couldn't take the bullying anymore and his mother placed NO value on education. The local DA pursued his mother for truancy and she avoided having him legally removed from her permanently because she agreed to have nothing more to do with his raising. He bounced and eventually landed with his grandparents, earned his HS diploma and now holds a Bachelor's degree and Master's degree. He's only the second person in his extended family to have ever attended and earned a graduate degree. His grandfather, who helped finish raising him, was the only other one to achieve that in his family.

By the time his younger brother dropped out of school in 6th grade, his mother had learned that Illinois had NO regulations. That time, when the truant officer called to start the investigation, the 6th grader informed the officer that he was now being homeschooled.

He was NEVER actually homeschooled. In fact, he had severe dyslexia, so in addition to a mother who put no value on education he was being left behind in the school system because he was functionally illiterate. She never did anything but use the lack of any regulations to allow her 12 year old to drop out of school permanently.

BIL has a not horrible story. Because she used the cover of homeschooling, when he realized his life was going nowhere at 17, he was able to use special federal consideration for enlisting in the Army despite having not passed his GED testing twice. Army accepted him without the GED under their homeschooling initiative at that time, but delayed his deployment to basic training and the recruiting office tutored him until he passed his GED. After basic training, the army sent him to specialized training where they taught him basic educational skills such as reading and writing in addition to the specialized training he was supposed to be learning. No, he hasn't achieved to the level his brother did but at least he is capable of earning a living now. He's a smart kid, but because he fell into the no oversight loophole he wasn't caught the same way my husband was. If his grandparents had been able to finish raising him as well, I can guarantee he would have not only a high school diploma but would have gone to college.

It would be easy to try to discredit that is an abberation. However, I know too many stories that are similar. That is why I would be 100% in support of increased oversight for homeschoolers, especially in states such as Illinois where there are NO regulations. I would also be 100% in support of prosecuting parents for educational neglect when they fail to comply with basic oversight regulations. I've known families who have thrown out all academic curriculum and only taught the Bible personally. I've had homeschooling friends who have openly admitted that they aren't even doing *that* because they have no funds, but if they were to send their children to the public schools they fear that CPS would come after them for the level of educational neglect they know they have committed.

I've also known over-achieving families where the children are surrounded by a brain trust and will go on to earn an Ivy League education eventually. I know a former special education teacher who is homeschooling because her own child needed special ed services and the school was violating her child's IEP. The level of work she does with her child is far, far beyond what any school system would do, but there is no doubt that the child is receiving the best education possible in the environment.

I'm not suggesting we do home visits, scrutinize curriculum to minutia and demand parents jump through more hoops and oversight than public schoolers. I am suggesting that we can implement some level of oversight more than the lack of any requirements in states such as Illinois. If MIL had been required to provide proof that she was homeschooling, even the most basic proof, she could never have provided it. She talked constantly that she was going to buy school supplies and books for him, but she never actually did it. If she had been required to do something, she would have been forced to put him back into school or actually DO some schooling.

[Coco]

I am a bit wary of more oversight because in order to protect children in families where their education is being neglected (and they absolutely SHOULD be protected) extra regulations would make it harder for parents to, say, unschool. While I am personally not a fan of unschooling, I respect a parents right to do so and I guess I worry about that right being taken from parents. I think that is my main issue with the idea of extra oversight- it is this blurring of the lines of a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, you know?

But oversight is the answer, even with unschooling. Unschooling, when done correctly, is completely suited to reporting. If a child is focusing on a certain topic such as bugs, the parent can show how the child studied math, reading, social studies - all of the standard subjects - focused from the starting point of bugs; no big deal. Iiuc the point of unschooling is to bring all subjects into the orbit of whatever it is that has become the child's focus.

Or maybe i'm actually describing unit studies instead of unschooling? Oversight is still the answer. If a parent's interpretation of unschooling is so random and unfocused that it doesn't meet the oversight standards, then it isn't a suitable education for the child.

[Alexandra]

I've known families who have thrown out all academic curriculum and only taught the Bible personally.

I've also known over-achieving families where the children are surrounded by a brain trust and will go on to earn an Ivy League education eventually.

I'm not suggesting we do home visits, scrutinize curriculum to minutia and demand parents jump through more hoops and oversight than public schoolers. I am suggesting that we can implement some level of oversight more than the lack of any requirements in states such as Illinois.

Okay, I do agree with what you said. Maybe I picture more oversight as home visits, scrutinizing curriculum, etc. :)

Btw, the bolded horrifies me. How can you teach a kid any core class using the bible??

Maybe I am an oversensitive HS'er, and that is why I worry about extra regulations... We do lots of child-led (teenage led?) learning (example would be her english class this year- she asked to forego a textbook and she designed her own British Literature class, complete with 20 works of literature.) - but my DD is way above her peers in academic abilities- and I think I tend to view the extra oversight as this idea that there would suddenly be extra hoops and ridiculous requirements that I don't want to deal with.

Anyway, I think this is one area where I can agree with every side of the argument, because they all have great points. On one hand, I hate the idea of extra regulations, on the other I do see the fact that it could protect so many kids.

I tend to see extra regulations as punishing parents who are educating their children with their best interests at heart- but then I remember: a parent who truly is doing that has nothing to hide, and they should be able to meet any basic requirements.

[nelliebelle1197]

Okay, I do agree with what you said. Maybe I picture more oversight as home visits, scrutinizing curriculum, etc. :)

Btw, the bolded horrifies me. How can you teach a kid any core class using the bible??

Maybe I am an oversensitive HS'er, and that is why I worry about extra regulations... We do lots of child-led (teenage led?) learning (example would be her english class this year- she asked to forego a textbook and she designed her own British Literature class, complete with 20 works of literature.) - but my DD is way above her peers in academic abilities- and I think I tend to view the extra oversight as this idea that there would suddenly be extra hoops and ridiculous requirements that I don't want to deal with.

Anyway, I think this is one area where I can agree with every side of the argument, because they all have great points. On one hand, I hate the idea of extra regulations, on the other I do see the fact that it could protect so many kids.

I tend to see extra regulations as punishing parents who are educating their children with their best interests at heart- but then I remember: a parent who truly is doing that has nothing to hide, and they should be able to meet any basic requirements.

Alexandra, meet the Klein family. Not only does the Bible form the core of their homeschooling, they teach others how to do the same and make a living at it.

blog.inkleinations.com/p/about-copying-bible.html

[formergothardite]

Yes, I can absolutely see where children who were hurt by the lack of oversight could desire more regulations. If you see at the bottom of my post, I am not 100% against more oversight- I do think it can be beneficial in some areas, though I tend to not like the idea of it that much. In a perfect world, there would be a great balance between the two... I am a bit wary of more oversight because in order to protect children in families where their education is being neglected (and they absolutely SHOULD be protected) extra regulations would make it harder for parents to, say, unschool. While I am personally not a fan of unschooling, I respect a parents right to do so and I guess I worry about that right being taken from parents. I think that is my main issue with the idea of extra oversight- it is this blurring of the lines of a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, you know? It is easy to be a proponent of these issues when it is going our way, but what if it were opposite? What if we suddenly lived in a conservative families dream world and ATI homeschooling was being forced upon us by the government? Obviously an extreme example (lol), but I think that is where I come from- the idea of children being hurt from HSing breaks my heart, but is more oversight the answer? I don't know, but I do think my states oversight is enough- we have to provide proof of homeschool curriculum every year- but that is it. Anyway, sorry for the ramble...

There is barely any oversight now. So little that nobody can tell how homeschoolers do in general. In NC a parent has to turn in a yearly test, but nothing stops the parents from doing the test for their child(and I know parents who do that) and if the tests shows that the child is drastically behind nothing can be done about it. Most of the former homeschoolers I have been around think that more oversight and regulations is the answer. They also think that people should care less about the right of the parents and more about the rights of a child to be educated. There is a new homeschool alumni survey that is being done and there has been a lot of outcry from homeschooling parents because they are worried that what it ends up showing will cause stricter regulations. They aren't worried about the actual people who were hurt, they are worried that the stories are becoming more public and that they will be taken seriously.

http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org ... untability

Josh Powell reached age 16 without having experience in basic writing, geography, or mathematics. He begged his local high school to admit him, desperate to learn what was taught there, but his parents objected.

In most states, there currently is little accountability to ensure that learning takes place in homeschooling settings. “If we had been required to submit a plan, my parents would have made us follow it,†explains Lana, a homeschool graduate from Texas. “It wasn’t that we were trying to do bad. We were out of touch.†This lack of accountability can, in some cases, contribute to parents letting things slide. Sarah, another homeschool graduate, says that her mother meant well and purchased textbooks, but that she let things slide and certain subjects were overlooked entirely. “There was no accountability,†she explained. In some cases, parents may simply be out of their depth but unwilling to seek out the resources needed to educate well. Kierstyn King explains that her mother stopped trying to teach her algebra when it proved challenging—but that the problem was not her, but her mother. “It turns out, I did it RIGHT, my mom was just not getting it and kept insisting I show every line, which actually made me get answers wrong.â€

Sometimes the neglect is even worse. “My husband said his mom quit doing any schoolwork with him at age 10,†homeschool graduate Miranda says of her husband, also a homeschool graduate. “At that point he still couldn’t read at a 2nd grade level (he is dyslexic, something no one knew until he was an adult

I was self-taught throughout high school, and went an entire year without doing any math because I couldn’t teach myself geometry,†homeschool graduate Amanda explains. “By that point, homeschooling had become such a moral mission for my family that putting me in school was not even on the table.â€

The home-school law is abused up and down, left and right,†explained Kalamazoo County, Michigan, attendance officer Jerry Jansma. “I despise the law, because the families I deal with use it as a loophole. Happens all the time. You’ll have a parent who is clearly neglectful and we can’t get resolution, and they’ll say, ‘I’ve decided to homeschool my child’ and there’s nothing I can do about it.â€

Joseph Piazza, child-welfare officer for the Folsom-Cordova Unified School District, California, also expressed concern about the laxity of the homeschool law. “I call at a house and say, ‘Bobby is not in school,’ and the first word out of their mouths is, ‘Homeschool.’ It’s like an ally-ally-oxen-free

In some cases, like in Kierstyn’s story above, homeschooled children may be treated as servants and expected to do childcare and housecleaning rather than completing homeschool lessons. In other cases, homeschooled children’s education may cease at age 12 or 14 as they are expected to work full time, often in family businesses or doing various manual labor. “By 11, he was working full time with his dad who did construction,†writes Miranda of her homeschool graduate husband. “By 14, he was in the woods logging, carrying the full weight of a grown man’s job, helping bring home income for his parents.†These children are frequently not paid for their labor, and are thus both deprived of an education and exploited.

There is no doubt that if homeschooling is done correctly and done with the best interest of the child in mind, NOT the best interest of the parent, it is a wonderful thing. But the loop-holes, lack of accountability, and lack of oversight means that there are plenty of times that it is not wonderful.

[Alexandra]

Alexandra, meet the Klein family. Not only does the Bible form the core of their homeschooling, they teach others how to do the same and make a living at it.

blog.inkleinations.com/p/about-copying-bible.html

:shock:

Wow. Just wow. So, I assume they don't teach their kids Algebra or Calculus?

It makes me feel a bit better about the fact that my DD is still working on PreCalc so she won't start Calc until December or January. :lol:

[longtimelurker6]

And I agree about the regulation issues - I am thankful to live in a state that only requires me to show them my curriculum at the beginning of each school year... I can't imagine having to do required testing, etc. so the idea of wanting more oversight has just never occurred to me! With that being said, I do appreciate that some of the more regulated states offer homeschoolers a state-issued diploma if all requirements are met.

I was one of the first wave of homeschooled kids. I was homeschooled starting in 10th grade.

I had to go in at the end of every school year and take the state exams with my quondam classmates. I felt no resentment or compunction at having to do so, and neither did my mother. It gave us something to shoot for, something to keep our goals on track.

Some of these exams were tough. The geometry one in particular was arduous; I barely passed. The English ones I sailed through. Both of these results were probably what would have happened had I stayed in school; no surprises.

But because I wasn't in school, the state had an interest in assuring itself that I was still meeting the goals it expected. It's a perfectly reasonable requirement.

Without state exams, I suspect we might have fallen into educational entropy as many homeschoolers do.

[chaotic life]

Honestly, between Dh and I, we are very strong in science knowledge. I know earth sciences and health sciences like the back of my hand, and he knows Chemistry and Physics (which is a good thing because I'm quite proud to have survived to my age with the only exposure I've had to Physics being a planetary physics class I had to take for my first Bachelor's degree). I have never used a formal science curriculum for teaching science in over twenty years of homeschooling (was a homeschooling nanny before a homeschooling mother). I've always used a more unschooling approach to science learning, led by the interests of individual children and LOTS of exposure to science in their lives.

If someone asked me to quantify that learning, and for the two school years that we lived in a high regulation state someone DID, I can easily make the learning that goes on in science materials confirm to oversight requirements.

My beef with strict unschooling has everything to do with what happens if 1. the parents fail to set up learning environments so that the child can pursue learning or 2. the child has a deficit and the parent doesn't put their foot down and require the child to do more formalized learning in a subject they struggle or have little interest in learning.

However, when unschooling is done well, even unschoolers can and DO present their education in a manner that confirms to oversight requirements. If you cannot quantify what your child is learning, then you aren't intimately involved in teaching them. If you are, you can present that for oversight and explain what they are learning because you know what they are learning. I do not believe that minimal oversight requirements will put an undue burden even on eclectic or unschooling families that are putting education as a priority in their home. It only becomes an undue burden for families that are behind and not working to catch up. Keep in mind that even states with high regulation have allowances for children with true special educational needs. Some of them require you have a certified teacher to consult with your educational plans. Some of them require you hit minimal standardized testing scores. Some of them simply require you give more details to your educational goals and formatting. But, every state with high regulation still has a way to homeschool even children with legitimate educational struggles. Oversight and regulation is not the big, bad wolf. It's really not. It's a pain in the rear and annoying, but its not the out to get you mentality that too many homeschoolers view it as.

[chaotic life]

FWIW, I hate oversight with a passion. I hate oversight so much I give the details to my husband and HE deals with the paperwork side of the homeschooling. I HATE it. I can teach, and I can teach WELL, but I'm a terribly record keeper and I admit that.

I spent two years in one of the highest regulation states in this country and boy did I despite the oversight required there. My son has severe dyslexia and the state required that he had to score a minimal score on standardized testing every year, or I would have to present more paperwork to the state, including they reserved the right to overrule my educational choices and the right to compel me to put him into public school. He never came near the minimum score required, despite his challenges. Granted, I would love to see him score higher, and he does in his non-ELA testing. But, he was more than double the minimum required by the state in his subjects that he struggles in. It was merely the stress I felt that drove me batty about it.

Plus, I have a brother who nearly lose a NCAA scholarship to college because poor paperwork in homeschooled HS nailed him for more scrutiny by NCAA. He didn't know if he was going to be able to get his scholarship until weeks before the freshman year started. He had to appeal hard to prove he took Algebra I because our mother kept NO records. He had demanded he be allowed to go to public school after his freshman year, but he had to prove his education for that year without records to support his claim. So, I know full well that once you reach high school, you have a requirement to your child to keep those records anyway.

When I was a young homeschooler, I was one who declared we didn't need oversight. Now that I've been at this for 20+ years, I realize that's just arrogance. I've seen too many first hand accounts where oversight would have protected children from educational neglect so easily. I've also seen that while I consider the regulations a thorn in my side, it's DOABLE. It's a pain, but it's not something I cannot accomplish so long as I am actually teaching my children. For the protection it would provide other children, I am fully supportive of more standardized and consistent oversight especially versus the nothing some states have.

[Alexandra]

I was one of the first wave of homeschooled kids. I was homeschooled starting in 10th grade.

I had to go in at the end of every school year and take the state exams with my quondam classmates. I felt no resentment or compunction at having to do so, and neither did my mother. It gave us something to shoot for, something to keep our goals on track.

Some of these exams were tough. The geometry one in particular was arduous; I barely passed. The English ones I sailed through. Both of these results were probably what would have happened had I stayed in school; no surprises.

But because I wasn't in school, the state had an interest in assuring itself that I was still meeting the goals it expected. It's a perfectly reasonable requirement.

Without state exams, I suspect we might have fallen into educational entropy as many homeschoolers do.

Interesting! My DD started HSing in 8th grade, didn't take another standardized test until last year when she took a placement test for dual enrollment classes. She placed in to the english classes with no trouble at all, and when she took the ACT back in June, she did very well, as well (26 composite).

My DD has actually preferred the lack of emphasis on standardized tests, I don't think she'd like having to take them every year! But with that being said, she has taken many classes via an online school and she has had semester and final exams for those.

[formergothardite]

I always liked going and taking the end of year tests and my mom would always look at the results to see what we needed to work on*. I do know that there were parents who didn't like having to do this and were thrilled when they could order the tests and just do them at home without anyone making sure that the child was actually taking the test.

*except for any sort of science, that was just chalked up to the ebil government wanting us to know about evolution and all we really needed to know was that God made the earth in six days. With my younger siblings, after they got out of ATI my parents did higher a science tutor and they had actual science labs. It was still very Christian based but much better than what I got.

[August]

If you cannot quantify what your child is learning, then you aren't intimately involved in teaching them.

You also need to be able to break down what they're doing into the educational components (for lack of a better word). Not just "Susie learned math through baking!", but finding out for yourself the basic and advanced skills involved in mathematics, figuring out what your child knows and doesn't know, and how to help them learn those skills. If you are already doing that, then it's easy to report that you worked on equivalent fractions and multiplying fractions.

[nelliebelle1197]

I really love how the person arguing hardest for no regulation isn't 1) homeschooling; and 2) a homeschooled child/adult.

I really appreciate you, Alexandra. You are listening and accepting. I have no doubt you are doing a good job with your daughter, and I am sorry about her health issues.

Confession: I actually stayed at home during part of fourth and all of fifth due to an illness. Homeschooling was not regulated in the state and I basically got nothing other than what I did myself because my mom just didn't know what to do. I ended up in a small IFB church school that pretty much created a course of study for each child, and was able to catch up and thrive. But it took a lot of work and definitely was not a good thing for me.

[Alexandra]

I really love how the person arguing hardest for no regulation isn't 1) homeschooling; and 2) a homeschooled child/adult.

I really appreciate you, Alexandra. You are listening and accepting. I have no doubt you are doing a good job with your daughter, and I am sorry about her health issues.

Confession: I actually stayed at home during part of fourth and all of fifth due to an illness. Homeschooling was not regulated in the state and I basically got nothing other than what I did myself because my mom just didn't know what to do. I ended up in a small IFB church school that pretty much created a course of study for each child, and was able to catch up and thrive. But it took a lot of work and definitely was not a good thing for me.

Thank you!! I am so happy we got to the bottom of her health issues (celiac disease)- it took a while to find out the problem, but she is doing great now. She's also done fantastic with homeschooling- I didn't think she would do as well as she has, but she loves it and it has taught her so much about time management and helped her be responsible with getting things done. I am not that HS Mom that plans lessons and gives her child a set number of hours for school - my DD is responsible for staying on track and I definitely think that will help her when she gets to college. :)

Anyway, I think the more I read here, the more I realize most aren't promoting the type of oversight that I visualize, and I can certainly back the recommendations I have read so far.

[formergothardite]

There are 10(maybe 11) states that don't require the parents to do anything. No sending in even a notice that they are homeschooling. There are other states that only require a parent mail in a notification that they are homeschooling. I can't see how anyone could think that parents need that much freedom when it comes to their child's education. Are these laws or lack of laws really in the best interest of children? Or are they in the best interest of parents?

[Walking Cat Bed]

Note: I'm neither a parent, nor was I homeschooled, but I studied education during my undergrad. This is all from an ideological viewpoint, not one with experience. And I know that in the most extreme cases (in which kids are actively isolated), my Pollyanna ideas won't work.

As far as nation-wide homeschooling (and unschooling) oversight is concerned, I tend to visualize county registration (i.e., "the Smith family is homeschooling Bob, 14, Jane, 9, and Enid, 5; these children will not report to public/private schools in Random county", just so there's a record that those children won't be showing up but are receiving an education); a very basic curriculum submission process (i.e., "we will use XYZ Fourth Grade for Jane, ABC First Grade for Enid, and Bob is pursuing a comprehensive independent study of 14-th Century Science and Art"); and proctored/online testing (either in-home or at a local school/library/wherever).

I ALSO think it would be exceedingly helpful for school districts or local colleges (at any level) to offer basic homeschooling classes for the parents; teaching methods, finding content and sources, assessment, and local people to contact for help with specific subjects (like Calculus) or concerns (like a child with autism). Totally voluntary, no cost, taught by people who won't talk down to homeschooling parents.

...Yes, I know the money has to come from somewhere, and that even those ideas could be seen as too intrusive. I'm still going to be an optimist about this.

[nolongerIFBx]

FACT! It further proves that Alabama doesn't give a shit about education!

When we homes schooled in AL, we had to be tested every year. In fact, it was the only state we lived in where we were required to do so. They must have changed the laws in the last 25 years, LOL!

[Tiger Lily]

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

I think just like with anything else, homeschooling can be done well and it can be done poorly. Having said that, I know a couple (both teachers) who homeschooled their two children brilliantly. OTOH, I've known several who most definitely have NOT. My best friend invested a lot of time and effort into homeschooling her three children yet she went about some things in a way that I did not agree with and I called her on it. First of all, her son had a disability (from his immunizations) where he couldn't translate whatever he had learned into writing so she gave him EVERY SINGLE TEST verbally (no matter the subject, including math). I told her that wasn't helping him at all because one day he might need to write papers for college or reports for work. She never changed her method. BTW, he aced just about every verbal test. ;-) My friend's middle child was very bright but also very anxious about her work being perfect and when she'd earn a B, my friend would allow her to retake the test. Again, that's not real life at all and she wasn't doing her daughter any favors. On the positive, my friend was (she passed away several years ago) very bright and articulate and at least she was able to pass those qualities on to her children. In addition, the children attended a Christian-based homeschool where they did interact with other students on a weekly basis so that's certainly better than students who are isolated. OTOH, I've encountered several homeschooling parents IRL and online who had very poor grammar skills and wouldn't recognize sentence structure if it smacked them in the face. I have wondered from time to time how they educated their children adequately.

[Tiger Lily]

When we homes schooled in AL, we had to be tested every year. In fact, it was the only state we lived in where we were required to do so. They must have changed the laws in the last 25 years, LOL!

My bff lived in AL and her children were regularly tested (about 4-6 times per year) although they officially were under the umbrella of a Christian homeschool program and perhaps their testing was done for the school's benefit.

[chaotic life]

Alabama requires you to register under an umbrella school. Your homeschooling requirements are then dictated by the umbrella school and not the state. They range from nothing but an annual registration fee and a statement that you are keeping your own attendance records to strict religious schools with behavioral contracts. Some with testing and curriculum requirements and everything in between. The only requirement the state sets forth is the umbrella school and a document you submit to your local district that provides proof that you are registered with an umbrella school.

[Kitchen Princess]

I have spent many years giving careful consideration to education, not only that of my own children but education in general.

One thing I wish people would understand is that what is needed and necessary to run an education system is needed and necessary to establish and maintain a system. This is for a group with many students. When you have small and private situations, such as a homeschool or even a private school, the same elements are not needed.

It is very easy to know what comprises a typical American education. There are many curriculums and books if the parents need ideas of what to do to educate their children. There are other homeschoolers to draw on. A degree in education serves no purpose, because the purpose of a degree in education is to produce teachers for a school system.

Lack of oversight? This implies the government is actually good at this education system and has some inalienable right to children. Well, no. I do not agree the government should have this right. We are Americans, the very crux of our existence is freedom and independence. My children are my children, I am not a womb-bearer for the state.

I lived in the ghetto for almost ten years while going to school and working. Yes, it took me that long to earn a bachelor's degree and then gain career employment and then the means to finally move out. I was surrounded by people who live off the government and absolutely give no craps about their children's education.

This evidenced itself in everything from young kids being outside unsupervised late into the night on school nights. In little boys going to elementary with their pants sagging below their butt. In the parental outrage that little Johnny had to put on a pair of sweatpants at school because little Johnny's ass and underwear were on display for all the world to see.

This assertion that no one should homeschool unless they are homeschooling the way YOU think is the right way is nothing more than a witch hunt.

Oh, you better believe there are some bad homeschoolers out there. There are also plenty of parents who send their kids to public school who are terrible, awful, no - good parents. My mother taught public school for 23 years and it was just appalling at how little value is placed on education in certain subcultures. Does that sound racist to you? More like educationist. I have friends of all colors but all of them are educated and share similar ideas on the importance of education.

My kids have suffered every single year because of how school is dumbed down. Oh yes, this is very true. My children attended the local public elementary, riding the bus right there in the ghetto. They were immersed in a definitely not white middle class life. They rarely had homework... because the school policy is to not issue homework due to the lack of support from home for the majority of the students.

My kids never had to make a poster. They never made a diorama. They did get some individual support from their teachers because you can imagine that my children were an oasis for their teachers but overall my kids missed a lot of "normal" experience because their entire school experience was lessened in order to accommodate all these children.

I am pretty darn sure that if you tested my kid's knowledge against those who attend much different school systems, my kids are going to come up short. Now if I could have homeschooled them, that would be a much different story.

I have known a fair number of homeschoolers. I do not always agree with their ideas of how to homeschool. I am quite suspicious of unschooling, for example. I do not know any who actually admitted to unschooling. But I do support their right to educate their children the way they see fit.

The crisis in education are the ghetto kids with parents, who are mostly just the moms very few dads around, who are themselves high school graduates with little actual education and a whole lot of attitude and disrespect to the school system. These are kids who are being failed by the bucketloads. A few Christian homeschoolers here and there who are not teaching their kids whatever it is you think is important is not the crisis.

Homeschooling is like the Internet, one of the last few free places on Earth. It is a beautiful thing that should be protected and celebrated, not hunted down and regulated by the government.

Have to agree with that! Brava! But you know, unschooler here. Now you know one. Like I said, my kid just transferred to another college, on academic scholarship. Never attended school or had a math lesson until he decided he would like to go to college, when he was 17. It works.

[VodouDoll]

I went to public school so I don't really know buy I have two questions. Even when home schoolers are kept up to par, do they have like AP testing opportunities as often? Some schools even pay those fees now and they're a huge college advantage. I came into college with 37 credits and that's huge.

Oh, sure. Homeschoolers can take the AP Tests at their local public high school. That's totally allowed. If they've done college-level work they should get credit for it.

My other question -- how are science labs? I study chemistry and I'm not sure I would have loved it so young if it were only on paper. Some labs certainly cannot be done in a home and many chemicals high schools can buy cannot be purchased by just anyone. Same with biology and buying dead animals for anatomy labs. Are there co-ops that make this stuff kind of possible?

Yup! You can mail order dissection kits to do the labs at home. As for higher level chemistry, when you start getting into stuff that would be prohibitive to do in a home setting, there are co-op courses, or some school districts let homeschoolers come in for certain classes. Also, homeschoolers can take their upper level science courses at their local community colleges or nearby universities, which often have nice lab setups. Bonus: college credits when the student completes the course! The state university near me actually has a pretty cool program for homeschoolers where, if they pass an interview with the dean of students to make sure they're ready for college level work, they can enroll in two classes per semester for half price. They get college credit for their work, and if they pass everything they take as homeschoolers, they also get guaranteed admission to the university once they graduate high school. This way kids can take classes that require elaborate labs, calculus or other higher level math that parents might not be equipped to teach, or really anything that strikes them but is outside their parents' expertise: Econ, philosophy, Russian, whatever. The university keeps close tabs on the homeschoolers' progress and provides them with extra supervision and tutoring to make sure they're on track with the work. It's a pretty great program and I'm sure many other schools have similar setups.

(I'm not a homeschooler, but we're thinking about trying it in a few years so I've been researching everything I can.)

[Four is Enough]

Tiger Lily: one of my sons had a processing disorder of some sort.. he could not keep up with what he read. However, when things were discussed in class, he could process them and converse about them in an intelligent manner. Although he went to a private (Catholic) school, we'd taken him to the local public school for testing. They told us that if he'd been a student at the local elementary school, he'd have an IEP (or a 504, I never understood the difference) and one of his recommendations was that he be tested orally. The teacher read him the test questions, and he could often answer even without reading the multiple choice, if it was a multiple choice test. So That is indeed a real life application, at least in public schools in Maryland, for some children.

[Tiger Lily]

Tiger Lily: one of my sons had a processing disorder of some sort.. he could not keep up with what he read. However, when things were discussed in class, he could process them and converse about them in an intelligent manner. Although he went to a private (Catholic) school, we'd taken him to the local public school for testing. They told us that if he'd been a student at the local elementary school, he'd have an IEP (or a 504, I never understood the difference) and one of his recommendations was that he be tested orally. The teacher read him the test questions, and he could often answer even without reading the multiple choice, if it was a multiple choice test. So That is indeed a real life application, at least in public schools in Maryland, for some children.

Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad to see that approach is offered and works for some children. Do you know if the school worked with your son to develop his reading comprehension as well?

With my friend's son, after his first set of immunizations (around two months or so), he immediately began having seizures which dissipated eventually. Everything seemed normal (ish) until kindergarten where it was discovered that he could barely function. The school he attended wanted to put him in LD (not sure if that's the correct term) classes and my friend refused so her son struggled mightily for several years in regular classes. My friend's second child was scoring off the charts and so my friend decided to homeschool them both. For the most part, they succeeded although with the son, my friend had to read with/to and verbally test him (even for his driver's license). I'm not sure how able he was/is to read on his own and I still have my doubts here and there. After his mother died, he never pursued college (which was something she especially wanted for him and his sisters). I've wanted to ask why yet never thought it was any of my business. Then again, without the driving force of his mother (and she really pushed her children), he may not have wanted to risk failure. Perhaps he just assessed his risks and decided against college.

[Four is Enough]

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Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad to see that approach is offered and works for some children. Do you know if the school worked with your son to develop his reading comprehension as well?

.

My son is now 20, did attend trade school after he got his GED, but has never loved reading. We read to him for nearly every thing he had to read and discuss. He could always get spot on with his questions and responses. Even in trade school, he did very well in the hands on portion, where the instructor was demonstrating and talking. He did do reading of his textbooks and so on, but it was always a huge labor for him. He would grasp it readily when it was verbal.