Poseurs, non-authorities & why we love them

[MamaJunebug]

Nancy Leigh DeMoss was born into money, never married nor had children. Dominionists consider her a font of wisdom with regard to women's lives in making do, marrying and child-raising.

Elizabeth and Anna Sofia Botkin were raised around 5 brothers by parents who prevented them from going to school outside the home, working outside the home and dating, and they are nearing 30 as single women. Fundamentalists consider them the experts on boy-girl relationships, courting and finding one's way into marriage.

Bill Gothard dated one woman, quit her for his mother's sake, never had children, never had a wife, never had a family of his own, made his money on the tails of his father's ministry to delinquents. Gothardites consider him the be-all and end-all of marriage and child-raising advice.

Doug Phillips has never done anything remotely unconventional without a multi-man camera crew following his every movement. Vision Forum fans pay good money to send their sons on his bold adventures (to spas and on river cruise boats with air-conditioning).

Jenny Chancey has had the help of free au pairs to raise her large brood while Jenny herself travels far and wide. Her acolytes look to her for guidance on how to live simply, frugally and happily within the home, day in and day out.

There are many more examples within the communities we snark on, and there are examples of similar charlatans and poseurs in the liberal Christian and other religions, and in the non-religious worlds.

My question is: why? Why do they/we do that? Does nobody ever realize how ridiculous it is to take advice from someone who has no experience behind their advice?

I've been listening to a dreary webinar by Victoria Botkin, and while much of what she says is wrong-headed and annoying, I must acknowledge that she has been married for decades, has birthed children and raised and home-educated them.

But there are so many examples of gurus who speak with authority about things with which they have no experience!

Why do people listen to them, and follow them? :pull-hair:

[infooverload]

To answer the posters question in a word charisma. People are drawn to it and will convince themselve the person speaking is smart, not realizing they are down to the charisma aspect. For example my husband's former church had this pastor who I didn't think was deeply intellectual, but everyone would rave about how smart the guy was. I would just sit back and think are we listening to the same thing.

[MrsYoungie]

You left out the entire Roman Catholic clergy.

[Sobeknofret]

Because many people don't want to think for themselves. Life is so much easier when we have someone telling us how it should all go, and guarantee the results. They don't *want* to think about their qualifications, that would be too difficult and frightening.

[Marian the Librarian]

Written from the road, so please forgive my brevity -

I think many people are hard-wired to seek out "heroes" (not that I think any of the above-mentioned folk even BEGIN to qualify for that description), so when someone reasonably good-looking and verbal comes along, they get sucked into the vortex. Or, as PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Dougie, Botkins, et. al. know this, and capitalize on it.

[doggie]

Religion and gullibility walk hand in hand. They want someone to follow and if a person has the right presence and says the right thing they are the next thing to Jesus. every televangelist has got this and exploits it to the max to make money.

[wtylcf]

I think many people are driven to seek affirmation of their beliefs whenever they can find it, and doing so leads them to overlook serious flaws with their heroes - because if they acknowledged these flaws in their leader, they'd have to confront the same potential for failure in themselves. I know my mentality was very defensive when I was a religious 21 year-old engaged to a very controlling guy. I was terrified that the internal and external pressure to acknowledge that the match was unsuitable and that I was too young would break me, leading me astray from a choice I'd been brainwashed into believing was the most "godly." A simple acknowledgement of reality would mean betrayal of everything I'd held dear - my religious beliefs, my fiancee, the self-identity I'd constructed.

Eventually we did break up, thank God, and I have become a far better and happier person for it. But when you're on the inside of a belief system that encourages people to use their beliefs to oppress others, it's very hard to break out, because of everything you've been told. Breaking away is conceived as a personal failure and a betrayal, and that makes it very difficult to accept as an option. It often means breaking off close friendships or entirely changing your circle of friends, which is also very difficult. Flaws in the system which ought to be obvious to any outsider are brushed away by fervent, if shaky, arguments to the contrary - for example, remember how Natalie Nyquist was very reluctant to discuss the flaws in the courtship model until her second marriage failed? And when she came out denouncing courtship, she was told repeatedly that she must have been doing it wrong. The Botkin's singleness must be handwaved away as "the will of God" or some other such rationalizing bullshit.

Yes, this is a slightly different issue than the fact that many fundies purport to be expert in things they have never experienced, but I think the tendency to overlook this fact points to their followers' need for self-affirmation in their beliefs.

[Sweetpea1]

Because many people don't want to think for themselves. Life is so much easier when we have someone telling us how it should all go, and guarantee the results. They don't *want* to think about their qualifications, that would be too difficult and frightening.

That... instant success in 10 easy steps.

[Black Aliss]

You left out the entire Roman Catholic clergy.

This. If you don't play the game you shouldn't get to make up the rules. (Assuming you were referring to the Church's stance on birth control here)

[MamaJunebug]

This. If you don't play the game you shouldn't get to make up the rules. (Assuming you were referring to the Church's stance on birth control here)

A very traditional Roman Catholic man, father of 11 and an easy-going guy blessed with a good sense of humor, said thoughtfully when he found out I was Lutheran: "Your priests, pastors marry, don't they? I've never figured out how a man can minister to his family when he's got one of his one."

I replied mildly, "I've never understood how a man can minister to a family without knowing what it's like to have one."

His look acknowledged that he'd never quite considered it that way, and we remained friends. But yes, celibate priests attempting to offer counsel to married people is one of those "why do we listen?" items. As well as chaste priests (those living without sexual activity) counseling young folks who have not taken such a vow.

[MamaJunebug]

That... instant success in 10 easy steps.

Sorry for multiple quote/replies, I'm internet-challenged these days.

Sweetpea1 and Sobeknofret, everybody's replies have been good but yours really struck home. I graduated high school and headed for university when a young woman going to a four-year college was still fairly unusual. My roomy and I once famously agreed that it would be easier to have a dictator to tell us what to do with our lives, since at a certain point, choosing majors and planning one's life out seemed really overwhelming. Mentors and career-counseling programs weren't in vogue.

I had a friend whose upbringing was so chaotic, and who sought to treat her considerable pain with several unwise options (drugs, drink, promiscuity). She had a spiritual spark, though, and found a religious tradition that spoke to her, and began to live a healthy life, good for her! Even so, she would become starry-eyed at forceful, charismatic persons in positions of leadership, and our own relationship ended when she accused me of rejecting God (I think I had begun to take dance lessons, and her guru du jour was against that).

A couple - very often the wife - are in conflict and in trouble, see uniformly happy and smiling couples with their perfect children and they want the results! - the qualifications of the person who claims to have Found The Secret aren't important at that moment. Getting better, is.

Not satisfying, but explanatory. Thanks to all.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Ding Dong! Dr Laura and Donald Trump-your thread is here!

Dr. Laura claims to be the foundation of morals and family values. Yet, this is a woman who fucked her way into a radio career, cheated on her first husband, got involved with her husband while he was still married to his first wife, raised a son who is a fuck up, is completely estranged from her family, expects others to take responsibility for their actions but rarely takes responsibility for her own, and treats her callers with utter contempt and cruelty. And let's not forget the time she dropped the N-word nearly a dozen times while talking to an African-American caller.

Donald Trump has filed four bankruptcy many times. He's countless sums of his investor's money. He's been named of NY's worst landlords by Village Voice magazine. He completed alienated a Scottish village when he wanted to build a golf course by treating the locals like absolute shit. His reality show is not a big ratings grabber. And now he's being sued for his bullshit Trump University.

Yet, both of these people are considered experts in their fields? Why? Well, to me both of these people are great at marketing themselves and blatant self-promotions. They just seem so confident in themselves. Both Dr. Laura and Donald Trump are brands, and brands are great at getting attention and therefore, getting respect. And in this country, if you're not getting attention, then you don't exist. It doesn't matter if you truly have something that matters.

[Sweetpea1]

Sorry for multiple quote/replies, I'm internet-challenged these days.

Sweetpea1 and Sobeknofret, everybody's replies have been good but yours really struck home. I graduated high school and headed for university when a young woman going to a four-year college was still fairly unusual. My roomy and I once famously agreed that it would be easier to have a dictator to tell us what to do with our lives, since at a certain point, choosing majors and planning one's life out seemed really overwhelming. Mentors and career-counseling programs weren't in vogue.

I had a friend whose upbringing was so chaotic, and who sought to treat her considerable pain with several unwise options (drugs, drink, promiscuity). She had a spiritual spark, though, and found a religious tradition that spoke to her, and began to live a healthy life, good for her! Even so, she would become starry-eyed at forceful, charismatic persons in positions of leadership, and our own relationship ended when she accused me of rejecting God (I think I had begun to take dance lessons, and her guru du jour was against that).

A couple - very often the wife - are in conflict and in trouble, see uniformly happy and smiling couples with their perfect children and they want the results! - the qualifications of the person who claims to have Found The Secret aren't important at that moment. Getting better, is.

Not satisfying, but explanatory. Thanks to all.

You know, it makes me think of the lovely, glossy magazines that I buy occasionally. I will never look like the models do; my home will never make the cover of Martha Stewart's magazine, and my meals don't look anything like they do in the pictures, but they might!!! Someday, they just might! :embarrassed: :)

[YPestis]

Yet, both of these people are considered experts in their fields? Why? Well, to me both of these people are great at marketing themselves and blatant self-promotions. They just seem so confident in themselves. Both Dr. Laura and Donald Trump are brands, and brands are great at getting attention and therefore, getting respect. And in this country, if you're not getting attention, then you don't exist. It doesn't matter if you truly have something that matters.

Both Dr. Laura and Donald Trump are brands onto themselves. They are successful promoters and marketers of a product. It doesn't matter how screwed up their personal situations are, they are charismatic and their followers believe in what they say. I don't think those celebrities are imparting true knowledge. It's more like they shout opinions which find traction in parts of society. Whether they believe in those opinions is another matter.

I vaguely remember reading how Donald used to be a moderate Republican in the 90's when he first entered politics. He had fiscal conservative leanings (of course), but was socially pretty liberal (you'd think). That, to me, was more likely the "real" Donald. Those values certainly reflect his own life. However, The Donald's changed since those early political beginnings. I think he's found a political audience (Tea Partiers) and wants to take advantage of the publicity that that following brings him and continues to rally that base with stuff like Obama's birth certificate and the "9/11 mosque" stuff.