Is there such a thing as an acceptable fundie?

[AVENues]

If she had never met that khreep... Zsue would have made SUCH a good feminist. She's got such huge balls. Why turn fundie?! We. Need. More. Feminists!!! Now hiring!

[formergothardite]

Well then, at one time in my life I was a breastfeeding fundie. Thankfully I stopped caring what other people do.

I have so run into some natural birth/breastfeeding fundies! Mothering.com is like the mothership for that sort of fundie. Pretty sure Elle was one of the natural birth fundies.

[jaelh]

Hi Formergothardite.

I totally understand what you're saying about teaching about hell being harmful.

But.

(there had to be a but, right?)

Is it enough to bin all fundamentalist parenting? Parenting "without god" isn't, in and of itself, necessarily any better. In some cases it's messed up in other, just as bad but different, ways.

While you have been on forums with fundamental Christians and gotten to know them, I've, not only lived it, but been on forums with children who were raised in households like you are describing and that way of raising children can be very, very harmful. And most of those kids looked and acted happy growing up. Some of your friends are teaching just as much hate as I was taught. They are creating the childhoods I lived. Not all children are bothered by it, but there are plenty who are.

I'm not disputing for most children it IS harmful. In particular and without question, abusive parents that don't educate their children and limit their opportunities. However, parenting minus fundamentalism isn't some kind of unqualified good. yes, teaching hell can be harmful. But I'm not sure that teaching hell is necessarily harmful enough (depending on what and how it is taught) to prima face result in a "bad childhood" or unhappy children.

Ditto on the hate. What I saw was about as loving as I could imagine discrimination being (promotion of celibacy for anyone with same sex tendencies). It was still necessarily setting up any gay child for a life with incredible limits, and wrong. No questions.

However. The anti-gay approach is the approach of the *vast majority of the persons of the world*. The vast. majority. It's abhorrent, but it's not uncommon (and usually much more brutal than what I've just described as these families practice). Unless you're willing to shout down every parent, everywhere (from Indonesia to Afghanistan to Chile to Nigeria to the US) that advocates against "the gays" as bad parents, then I'm not sure 'teaching hate' is enough. It's abhorrent, but it's not uncommon. It should be stopped - no questions at all - but is it enough to be a bad parent? I'm not sure that teaching your kids "the wrong thing" can ever be enough, in and of itself for us to class people as wholesale, necessarily, entirely bad. Because many people have been taught awful, dog awful lessons and had perfectly happy, wonderful, joy filled lives.*

The women I'm referring to are not ATI or ACE pamphlets only parents (no, one was ATI, sorry. But only one); they're not baby-wise; they not SOTDRT; they're not (all) IFB; they don't hit their children. Girls are encouraged to be wives and mothers, but are prepared for lives supporting themselves or making a financial contribution to the house they end up a part of. Of the adult children I've met, there are no PCC students; no one went to Bob Jones; no one went to World of Life Bible College (or a million other variants). One went to Liberty, another to a denominational specific school; two of the others went to secular colleges. One of the fathers was a Prof. of science at a local university (yes, really!). But wholesale - the families were bible believing, submissive women etc etc They really were quite extraordinary, all things considered.

Honestly, I'm not sure what families you think I'm describing, nor do I understand how you know what these kids are being taught. As I've just spelt out above, I imagine at least their education is entirely different to yours. I know you grew up in ATI; and you know many others who suffered enormously with an ATI upbringing. But, with all respect, you have had one experience of fundamentalism; not *the* experience of a fundamentalist childhood. And the forum communications you write about are with a necessarily self selecting group - those that didn't have a good experience of a fundamentalist childhood.

I'm totally willing to accept that maybe these children suffered at their hands of their parents. On the other hand; they had extraordinary educations (led by children's interests; engaging; very involved parents - no ignorance); their houses were full of love (genuine, real, caring, gentle love) and their parents were invested in them as individuals. Even if bits of their lives were less than ideal; many people have childhoods that were lacking. I see no reason to believe that prime facie these children had or have any better or worse lives than any other child.

I hope this doesn't sound awful. I don't mean to diminish your experiences or suffering. Overwhelmingly, such experiences may be common and indeed normal within fundamentalists homes. Good lord - if I could have intervened in the lives of a number of other families on the board, I would have. I called CPS on two. Some of the children were learning nothing, being brutalised and no doubt had life experiences just as you would imagine.

I don't dispute this, all I want to say is that some of these families were really wonderful. And I think I can pinpoint the difference: the focus was on love (on "Jesus"). Exactly as you see in the very best of families, everywhere. (what is it; all happy families are alike; all unhappy families are miserable in their own way).

Maybe using XJD's list they weren't actually "fundie". But I don't see the need to entirely demonise the other. I think fundamentalists demonise themselves well enough. But if sometimes, some things are good - well; it's ok to acknowledge that. If we don't, we make a mockery of those people whose experiences are not as yours were, FG; we entirely necessarily exclude their experience from our narrative of truth. How can we be surprised then, when they throw everything we say out, wholesale?

*no, you're right. I'm not suggesting that gay children growing up hearing this message have wonderful lives. No doubt; many will have had very difficult lives. I wholly and unreservedly accept this.

[RosyDaisy]

I have fundies in my family. Most of them I barely tolerate. But, I also have fundies (not the abusive type) in my family who have helped me a lot. Those I would consider acceptable despite the fact they are fundie. How can I turn my back on those family members who have help me and have done the same for them? For that reason alone, I can't turn my back on them despite their fundie beliefs. I'll even go a step further and say that the if the fundie family members I can barely tolerate needed help, I would give it. Jesus didn't make exceptions when he helped people, so why should I?

[formergothardite]

I'm not saying those people are horrible parents, my parents were fairly good parents despite the fact that they joined a cult, threatened us with hell, and raised us to believe being gay is a sin. I also got a great education, went to a secular college and got jobs in the real world starting when I was 16. But my parents were fundie, and IMO, so are all those other people that you mention. You can be a fundie and still not be the worst parent ever. In some ways my mother was a better parent than I am. But it doesn't take away that teaching your children that being a happily married gay person is not acceptable is teaching hate. Just because a good portion of the world teaches it doesn't make it any less hateful.

Sure there are plenty of people who are raised being taught horrible things end up with great childhoods and happy lives. Take my dad for example. He grew up at a time where segregation was still legal and by a dad who was a horrible racists and taught him that racism. He still had a great childhood. Took him years to get over the racist things he was taught. Even in the last 10 years it was difficult for him when one of my siblings started dating a black person. But he had a great childhood, doesn't take away from the really shitty things that he was taught growing up. So your friends might be giving their kids great childhoods, they are also teaching hate if they are teaching their kids to be anti-gay(and anti-gay sex is being anti-gay), anti-woman(patriarchy), and they might be scaring their kids with hell. The hate they teach is really no different than the hate my dad was taught.

ETA: I don't really expect anyone to agree with my definition of what a fundie is. I always thought fundie was just short for fundamentalist, so fundamentalist Christian/Muslims/Jews/naked roast sitters automatically fell into the fundie category.

[miffy]

Rebecca Eleventy is the only one.

[fundies_like_zombies]

Rebecca Eleventy is the only one.

She does seem nice. Not sure what she would do if a family member was gay or anything like that tho.