Any FJingerites with conservative opinions?

[Miggy]

Is anyone else here against illegal immigration or have some issues with it? That is the controversial issue I mentioned in a previous post, I decided to ask about it.

My main problem with illegal immigration is the tendancy to treat the people involved as less than human. I can completely understand someone in a poor country wanting to come and live in a wealthier country. I know that there are cases of peoplesmugglers telling people they are wanted in wealthier countries as housekeepers or labourers. It must be devastating to turn up in the new country, thinking that you are wanted and instead, be thrown in gaol for an indefinate length of time. I want to see detention centres made less like gaols or preferably abolished altogether, children allowed to attend schools and other community activities (don't punish the children for the adults activities), waiting times for court hearings should be measures in weeks not months or years. I guess that probably still leaves me on the left end of the political spectrum ...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm very, very liberal with one exception: I think English should be made the official language of the U.S. If you cannot read, write, and speak (unless there's a physical issue) standard American English after three years of residence then, sorry, you're going back where you came from. You are free to speak your native tongue in your home, when you're out with your friends, standing in line to vote, whatever. But all signs, gov't. documents, all job applications, every everything will be in English and you will conduct your business in English. Period. Your native tongue will not be accommodated. Also, in that three years, I'm asking for competency, not fluency. Fluency takes more time, but I would expect people to constantly be striving for it.

There is a huge problem with that argument, and that is that signage is not only for citizens, or residents, or permanent residents. It is for people inside the country's borders, and that very much includes the families of people on short term working visas and even tourists.

Most bilingual (or multilingual) signage is not mandated in any way whatsoever. Rather, businesses and public service places put it up because it SAVES them time and money compared to struggling every time some temporary resident with nonexistent English competency comes in to take care of some trivial task. It's just easier to be able to hand over a flyer and say "here, read this and come back next week." (If the flyer has English and the other language on it, it's free language lessons too.)

If you travel to other countries, you'll find the same situation in place - public offices, DMV equivalents, transit signage, police/fire/etc, all have accommodations for the "most common" foreign languages they're likely to encounter.

If the country decides that it wants to have voting materials in English only, that's fine, as long as they make English competency (of some level to enable you to read a ballot) an actual requirement of citizenship. Unless that happens at the same time, you end up depriving people of their right to vote.

But police hotlines? There's a reason they have multilingual help, they want even tourists to be able to report crimes.

[samurai_sarah]

My main problem with illegal immigration is the tendancy to treat the people involved as less than human. I can completely understand someone in a poor country wanting to come and live in a wealthier country. I know that there are cases of peoplesmugglers telling people they are wanted in wealthier countries as housekeepers or labourers. It must be devastating to turn up in the new country, thinking that you are wanted and instead, be thrown in gaol for an indefinate length of time. I want to see detention centres made less like gaols or preferably abolished altogether, children allowed to attend schools and other community activities (don't punish the children for the adults activities), waiting times for court hearings should be measures in weeks not months or years. I guess that probably still leaves me on the left end of the political spectrum ...

I agree with you, Miggy. From an admin view-point, illegal immigration is a nightmare, but it gets to me, how often privileged people will not understand that illegal migrants don't risk their lives for a laugh; it's often better than anything they have to look forward to, and in the same breath will ask someone who's complaining about their homecountry "why don't you leave".

In my undergrad days, I used to drive from Calais to Dover. It broke my heart to see people camping out in the dunes, walking along the road, and getting pulled off of lorries. How desperate do you have to be to do that? It shames me that I never stopped for any of them (I'm too chicken to try anything with border patrol, but I usually had a few Euros going spare). Not aimed at you lilwriter85, but a general issue. If I were starving, facing real persecution, or simply wanted to give my kids a better life, if it were impossible back home, I might not care about papers either, but just GO, if I could. Seriously, how absolutely fucking desperate do you have to be to do that? And French detention camps are absolutely horrific. :(

[Wolfie]

Teacher education programs would be rigorous and weed out those not up to the task. A graduate degree would be required of all teachers.

California already requires a graduate degree. The biggest challenge in schools is NOT the quality of teachers (yes, there are some that should not be there, but they are not the norm), but the fact that this country thinks of it as an extra and doesn't fund it enough to meet the needs of all children. There is very much a lack of respect for education in this country.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Is anyone else here against illegal immigration or have some issues with it? That is the controversial issue I mentioned in a previous post, I decided to ask about it.

If a country wants to get serious about restricting immigration, that is its right to do. However, that means they should ideally have some way for LEGAL immigration to happen, and they should not be racist about enforcing their immigration rules (or checking for compliance with same).

The US honestly boggles my mind, because there's this constant "ZOMG foreigners oh no" sentiment going on, this desire for "we must be strict on immigration" going on, at the SAME TIME as they say they are loathe to have citizens required to actually all have some consistent standard form of national ID. Well, sorry, you can't have one without the other. Too often it boils down to "I want officials to confront all those 'foreign looking' (yeah, you can imagine just what that means) people but I don't want anyone being suspicious of ME or requiring ME to prove my citizenship to get a job" which is just not logical at all.

Also people need to realize that it's only 100% pure luck and chance that they are born citizens of the countries they are born in. Nothing else. Being born a citizen of a first world country is NOT any credit to you, personally. It's blind chance. And they need to realize that if they did not win that birth lottery and were born a citizen of some extremely poor place, odds are that in their "rational economic self-interest" they too would possibly be trying to get elsewhere, the law be damned. All the pious "but *I* would never do that" from people sitting comfortable is just silly.

And people need to realize that status crimes (illegal visa overstay, illegal working when not having a visa, drinking underage, that sort of thing) are not the same as murder and theft and the usual crimes, and crank the paranoia down a notch or two. Yes, people who illegally work without a valid visa are criminals. That does not mean they're dangerous.

[Wolfie]

As for education, I'm okay with public schools -- attended them, even. However, I've seen what high-stakes testing and "teaching to the test" have done to lower standards here in my state, so I strongly support school choice initiatives -- both within the district (magnet programs, charter schools) and outside (vouchers). I'm cool with homeschooling and am actually considering it when the time comes for my child -- but done more within a co-op environment to have more access to socialization and extra-curricular activities.

My issue with vouchers and charter schools is that private schools in most states have very little regulation. Pretty much anybody can set up a "school" and take money to teach students. Charter schools have slightly more regulation, but not as much as public schools. IF these schools had the same regulations, were unionized (often good teachers will stay in the public schools because of the union rights if they have a bad admin, ect- yes, I've used the union when a principal has threatned or harassed me, in a private school I wouldn't have that) I would be okay with your suggestions, but as of now, they are often lesser quality schools that only look better because they can pick and choose who their students are.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

In my undergrad days, I used to drive from Calais to Dover. It broke my heart to see people camping out in the dunes, walking along the road, and getting pulled off of lorries. How desperate do you have to be to do that?

Some of the craziest illegal entry stories I've read involved people stowing away on the Eurostar. It's dangerous enough if they manage to make it into the cargo of freight trains (you can read any number of horrific deaths on regular domestic US "danger of being a hobo in modern days of high speed rail" websites) but there are people who CLING TO THE UNDERCARRIAGE, I just cannot even imagine.

[Wolfie]

Some of the craziest illegal entry stories I've read involved people stowing away on the Eurostar. It's dangerous enough if they manage to make it into the cargo of freight trains (you can read any number of horrific deaths on regular domestic US "danger of being a hobo in modern days of high speed rail" websites) but there are people who CLING TO THE UNDERCARRIAGE, I just cannot even imagine.

I totally agree with this. I have students who are illegal. Occasionally they slip and tell me stories of being smuggled into the US. If a parent is desparate enough for a better life to put their child through those things, it has to be very bad where they were.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I totally agree with this. I have students who are illegal. Occasionally they slip and tell me stories of being smuggled into the US. If a parent is desparate enough for a better life to put their child through those things, it has to be very bad where they were.

With kids there's the extra bit about it not being their choice, either. I mean, come on, say you're five years old and your parent decides to illegally immigrate somewhere, it's not like you can just say "why no, Mother, that would be illegal, I'll just stay here in our hometown by myself!" :roll:

[Mama Mia]

With kids there's the extra bit about it not being their choice, either. I mean, come on, say you're five years old and your parent decides to illegally immigrate somewhere, it's not like you can just say "why no, Mother, that would be illegal, I'll just stay here in our hometown by myself!" :roll:

And some of the primary legitimate problems people have with undocumented immigrants is brought about purely because there has been no way for children brought her to legally adjust their status and have a real future.

If you have thousands of young people going to school in the u.s. , growing up with citizen children, watching t.v. and generally participating in American life, only to discover they have 0 means of a legal career or driving a car or in any way buying into adult life - it is it any wonder they are drawn to dealing drugs and run in gangs ? It is so devestating to see the lack of hope and options. ugghhhh. Of course most will find work under the table somehow, or just hang out at home minding their own business and stay out of trouble. But the lure of income and actual status from a gang that you aren't allowed in regular society is a horrible side effect of kids growing up this way.

The incredibly blatant feudal underclass system brought about by having two tiers of human beings is atrocious.

[Irishy]

I'm lucky to live in a country with good welfare and socialised medicine. I think the fact that there are zero infants placed for adoption in Ireland is testament to our system. Sure, there are a lot of areas that need improvement but it is very reassuring to have that huge safety net under every citizen.

There is no abortion here. There is pretty equal support for legislating for it and for keeping Ireland abortion free. The pro choice lobby have not been very vocal until recently. Honestly, I am not sure where I stand on it. I have no strong feelings either way. It's still something I'm working out. I probably see it case by case and I find it tricky to form a definite opinion either way. I would not like to see repeat abortions happening because its just so easy. But at the same time, I wouldn't like to see any woman forced to give birth.

There is generational welfare abuse here. Long term unemployed, no intention of working. There are families who could tell you exactly what you're entitled to word for word and what situations will benefit you substantially. There are teenage girls who have a baby deliberately to have a dolly to dress up and to get a free house to get away from home. Education is the key here. However, it pisses me off that EVERY single person had the same opportunity here. Education (including university) is free for everyone and yet through ignorance and a lifetime of sponging, parents in these generational welfare families do not encourage their kids. There is no hope for them growing up in that cycle.

[amster]

The big three:

# Abortion = I've had one myself and don't regret it for a minute. Definately support.

# Homosexuality = That would be my brother and he deserves exactly the same rights that I have. He is a really good person; kind, gentle, generous, loving. Why can't he marry his partner? It won't change anyone elses life. It won't destroy the "traditional" family or devalue man/woman marriage or anything else conservatives like to argue.

# Guns = Pacifist. I would never own one and I don't believe there is ever a need to shoot another human being. i do not object to other people owning guns for use in sport and/or hunting but I believe there should be very strict rules controlling what guns can be kept and who can use them.

So, no, I don't think I hold any conservative opinions.

Wow, you pretty much wrote exactly what I was going to say

[Ramona]

And some of the primary legitimate problems people have with undocumented immigrants is brought about purely because there has been no way for children brought her to legally adjust their status and have a real future.

If you have thousands of young people going to school in the u.s. , growing up with citizen children, watching t.v. and generally participating in American life, only to discover they have 0 means of a legal career or driving a car or in any way buying into adult life - it is it any wonder they are drawn to dealing drugs and run in gangs ? It is so devestating to see the lack of hope and options. ugghhhh. Of course most will find work under the table somehow, or just hang out at home minding their own business and stay out of trouble. But the lure of income and actual status from a gang that you aren't allowed in regular society is a horrible side effect of kids growing up this way.

The incredibly blatant feudal underclass system brought about by having two tiers of human beings is atrocious.

I remember reading a story one time about a young girl down there who had (or was going to) graduate(d) top of her class (she had that "valedictorian" thing or whatever you call it) and it turned out that because her parents had come to the US illegally, she was now at risk of being "sent back" to -- is it Mexico where most of them come from? -- anyway, I remember thinking "what kind of messed up system punishes the children?" --- now granted, I have a weird view of borders, meaning I actually don't think they should exist - I'd like to see a world without them, I realize that sounds strange yep - and I hate that the parents would be punished either, but my point is that this young lady was brought here as an INNOCENT child. SHE didn't commit a crime, SHE did nothing illegal. So why is SHE getting punished?

I don't know how the story turned out.. it was posted on another forum or something at the time... I know her school was fighting for her.. I hope she got to stay.

[OkToBeTakei]

Anyone who's ever criticized Hellatrix is right-wing, so quite a few of us might as well own up.

Ok. Spat my morning coffee out. :lol:

[Ramona]

I remember reading a story one time about a young girl down there who had (or was going to) graduate(d) top of her class (she had that "valedictorian" thing or whatever you call it) and it turned out that because her parents had come to the US illegally, she was now at risk of being "sent back" to -- is it Mexico where most of them come from? -- anyway, I remember thinking "what kind of messed up system punishes the children?" --- now granted, I have a weird view of borders, meaning I actually don't think they should exist - I'd like to see a world without them, I realize that sounds strange yep - and I hate that the parents would be punished either, but my point is that this young lady was brought here as an INNOCENT child. SHE didn't commit a crime, SHE did nothing illegal. So why is SHE getting punished?

I don't know how the story turned out.. it was posted on another forum or something at the time... I know her school was fighting for her.. I hope she got to stay.

I found her! (and my mistake, her parents had brought her from Columbia - not Mexico)

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/06/08/va ... r-diploma/

So it looks like she got to stay, at least for now. I hope that doesn't change!

[moodygirl86]

I'm really enjoying this debate! I could talk about some of this stuff for hours. Right, where do I start...?

I wasn't 18 until the 2005 General Election, so I was only eligible to vote in that one, and the next one in 2010. Both times I voted Liberal Democrat, and I plan on voting Labour in 2015. I have been called a "woolly liberal" and a "do gooder" for some of my views, so I guess I'm not very conservative.

I'm anti-death penalty for the reason that it's irreversible, and we've had cases in the UK where the defendant was initially found guilty, but later allowed to appeal and acquitted on a technicality. However, I definitely think prisons should be harsher than they are, with just the basic essentials, and that somebody found guilty of murder, rape or GBH should automatically get a life sentence (although they should be able to appeal as many times as they like if there were no eyewitnesses and they have always maintained their innocence). I'm pro-choice when it comes to abortion, although I'm unsure what I personally would do if I ever found myself in that position. Touch wood I won't. But as a feminist, I definitely believe it's the woman's choice. She's carrying the foetus inside her, with all the associated risks, no one else is. As for euthanasia, I'm in favour of this with the patient's consent, as no one should have to live in constant pain. Basically, if it's the individual's body it's the individual's choice.

Now we get to the welfare debate! (Rant alert). I'm only one of many who has been affected by the economy in recent years, and since 2008 have been on and off the dole (thankfully I'm currently in work). I've needed to claim benefits more than a few times but always made an effort to look for work, and a recent study showed that 99% of JSA claimants are genuinely looking. It boils my piss when a Tory or the right wing press says something judgmental about this, like somebody on the dole is an entirely different species! Yes, we do have a small minority of benefit claimants who are taking the piss, and they need to be dealt with appropriately if caught, but they are just that - a minority. I'd rather have a system where a small percentage of piss takers get away with it than one where no one gets away with it, but genuine people are also punished in the process. David Cameron (PM) thinks slashing certain benefits will force more people into work, but he also wants to take away workers' rights and make it easier for employers to sack people. At best, this makes him incredibly naive because he's so blinded by his own privilege/rich background that he doesn't really understand the problems faced by Mr/Ms Average. At worst, he's an evil megalomaniac who only gives a shit about his rich friends in Parliament and doesn't want ordinary people to have any rights. And that's why I'd have to be half lobotomized before I'd ever vote Tory. :evil:

Oh yes, and I'm all for marriage equality. As long as it's consenting adults, it's really no one else's business.

[debrand]

Religious anti-choicers are usually just pro-fetus, that is why they are for the death penalty and don't give one shit about a kid once it is born.

I'm pro-choice, pro-euthanansia and anti-death penalty.

I think that the root of most antichoice is the fear of female sexuality and not love of babies. When you have debates with antichoicers, the issue always boils down to the fact that women should pay the price for having premarital sex.

[formergothardite]

I think that the root of most antichoice is the fear of female sexuality and not love of babies. When you have debates with antichoicers, the issue always boils down to the fact that women should pay the price for having premarital sex.

Yeah, despite all the claims that being anti-choice isn't being anti-women or wanting to punish women, forcing women to be pregnant against their will is doing just that.

[Mama Mia]

I think that the root of most antichoice is the fear of female sexuality and not love of babies. When you have debates with antichoicers, the issue always boils down to the fact that women should pay the price for having premarital sex.

I think that might be true a great deal of the time, but certainly not 100%, I know quite a few people who would say they are fairly firmly pro-life ( or anti-choice -however you want to phrase it ) - but only two or three who are anti- pre-marital sex. Although i don't think I've personally met anyone who would be in favor of abortion bans for rape/incest/life of the mother etc.

It is strange that generally people hold the combination of views of "pro-choice, anti-death penalty" or "pro-life, pro-death penalty"

Oh, and I don't know if this is a conservative view or not - but I hate casinos and wish they would be banned. The proliferation of them is wrecking people's lives.

[debrand]

Is anyone else here against illegal immigration or have some issues with it? That is the controversial issue I mentioned in a previous post, I decided to ask about it.

I have no idea how this would work in actuality, but sometimes I think that we should have open borders with Mexico. If all immigrants were legal than employers couldn't take advantage of them and those immigrants would have legal rights. I don't think that this would hurt the American worker because they would not longer be competing with individuals who employers can underpay and mistreat. However, I am not certain how this would work with national security. It is a subject that I'd like to read more on and study.

[debrand]

I think that might be true a great deal of the time, but certainly not 100%, I know quite a few people who would say they are fairly firmly pro-life ( or anti-choice -however you want to phrase it ) - but only two or three who are anti- pre-marital sex. Although i don't think I've personally met anyone who would be in favor of abortion bans for rape/incest/life of the mother etc.

It is strange that generally people hold the combination of views of "pro-choice, anti-death penalty" or "pro-life, pro-death penalty"

Online-but not in my offline world-I've come across a few individuals who are prolife but also believe in free access to birth control and are antideath penalty and aren't prowar. I disagree with their views on abortion but I have to give them credit for actually being consistent.

edited: to change a word to fit better with the meaning of my post

[formergothardite]

I don't think it is always about punishing women for having sex, but it is always about punishing women. Forcing a woman to risk her life and health and go through the pain of child-birth against her will is punishing a woman. It comes down to saying that no matter how a woman got pregnant, she is going to be punished for that.

[slh12280]

I lean conservative in my views, mostly fiscally. In recent times I have become more liberal socially compared to what I was. For me personally I have conservative lifestyle views. However, there are things that I don't agree with but don't want criminalized.

I personally don't think I would ever get an abortion. I support comprehensive sex ed as I feel it would cut back on abortion and is much more effective than abstinence only.

Children should be taught scientific theories without regard for how people feel about it. So evolution in schools.

I am big on defending the first amendment even if that means letting the Westboro nuts out. I believe in fighting free speech with more speech and freedom of religion is a big one for me. However, I am also for separation of church and state in most instances but still think we should have the Pledge of Allegiance.

I support gay marriage while allowing churches and other religious institutions to make their own choices about it.

I don't support the legalization of drugs or prostitution so I guess I am conservative in that sense.

Other than that I am pretty standard conservative although I still cringe at some of the things that conservatives say regarding women and could never be a part of the "Christian right" but compared to most on freejinger I am super conservative (in the US sense). So, I guess I sometimes feel like I don't fit anywhere. Too liberal for "real" conservatives but much too conservative for "real" liberals.

Edited to add stuff.

[SamuraiKatz]

My issue with vouchers and charter schools is that private schools in most states have very little regulation. Pretty much anybody can set up a "school" and take money to teach students. Charter schools have slightly more regulation, but not as much as public schools. IF these schools had the same regulations, were unionized (often good teachers will stay in the public schools because of the union rights if they have a bad admin, ect- yes, I've used the union when a principal has threatned or harassed me, in a private school I wouldn't have that) I would be okay with your suggestions, but as of now, they are often lesser quality schools that only look better because they can pick and choose who their students are.

Bolded: QFT

My issue with vouchers and charter schools is the taking of tax payer funds to fund essentially religious or private enterprises. Many charter schools are overseen/managed by private management companies. Many private schools are religious. I do not think the tax payer should fund private or for profit education.. Both vouchers and charter schools drain tax payer money away from the public schools. I don't think defunding the publc school system in the United States is the answer to the the problems found in education.

[GolightlyGrrl]

SamuraiKatz mentioned: "I think that all financial institutions should be heavily regulated. There is no such thing is as 'too big to fail'"

Well, is it just me or does it seem as we dismantled regulation for financial institutions and other large corporations, we forced more regulations on workers and employees? Or am I crazy?