Courtship and dating

[AtroposHeart]

My daughters and I have been reading together the books of 1 and 2 Samuel as we examine the life of King David. One of twins expressed interest so we decided to take our time, read a chapter a day and discuss what we can learn from the saga that was the life of the king after God’s own heart. That God, through the writers of these Scriptures, reveals such a complete picture of David (the good, the bad and the ugly) is something that we have found ourselves returning to in conversation again and again.

Recently we read 2 Samuel chapter 13 which recounts the rape of David’s virgin daughter Tamar by her half brother Amnon. The treachery of the assault and the way she was treated afterward by Amnon sparked quite a discussion about love, lust, incest, and sex. I found it off topic at the time, but dating was an issue raised as well.

It just so happened that as we approached those chapters two of my nieces, also adolescent girls, were spending the week with us and were a part of the discussion. They too are being raised by Christian parents. One part of our conversation, related to dating went something like this:

Me: “When your fathers (my husband and their father are brothers) put certain boundaries in place for you, it is to protect you from being hurt by the fruits of lust and the resulting disrespect and loss of self-respect that always occurs when you give any parts of yourself to anyone other than your husband. This is one of the reasons you are not allowed to date.â€

My niece: “How are we supposed to know who we like if we are not allowed to date?â€

Me: “Tell me how you or girls at your school decide who you want to date. What are the criteria?’

My niece: “If he’s cute, on the basketball team, is dressed nice, and is popular, he’s someone all the girls want to date.â€

Me: “That list lets us know that you are not prepared to date-anyone. Not only are you too young (the 6 girls ranged in age from 13-16 at the time), but your priorities are wrong. In your list was no mention of godliness, intelligence, respectfulness, or responsibility. And until you can honestly say in your heart that your criteria are even remotely based on something other than the superficial, you are not ready to considering dating or courtship. I’d feel that way even if you were 18 years old. You shouldn’t consider dating anyone until you are prepared to settle down and be a wife. Otherwise, what’s the point of it? You can go see a movie with anyone!â€

There was a pause to consider what I’d said. I don’t think young girls stop to consider that the things they think need a boyfriend to do can be done with just about anyone. Except of course, the things that should only be done with a husband!

We are entering the stage of parenting when our girls have to live out what they’ve been taught and begin to develop their faith for themselves, apart from us. I must admit that I view these high school years with more than a little trepidation. In many ways, these are the years when we’ll see the fruit of what we’ve sown- be it good or bad. With three in college (one full time, two dually enrolled), this is where the rubber meets the road, when they (and we) get a glimpse of how much they have internalized of what they have been taught.

The question then becomes of course: What is the best way for a young woman to approach dating and courtship when she is prepared for marriage? Our opinion on that will come in part 2.

http://terrybreathinggrace.wordpress.co ... ip-part-1/

[bellicosebroad]

The question then becomes of course:

Just what do you hope to accomplish with this annoying, pointless, obnoxious and completely self-serving post? And :doh: there's a part 2? Whatever for?

[Witsec7]

Just what do you hope to accomplish with this annoying, pointless, obnoxious and completely self-serving post? And :doh: there's a part 2? Whatever for?

I think she wants to teach a bronze age philosophy about chastity to the girls and at the same time paint all noncourtship dating with a big dirty brush. Keep 'em scared.

[AddieBelle]

I seriously hope this was meant to be a quote from a fundie blog or something like that.

[erunerune]

uh, I'll skip Part II, and I want to be compensated for the time I spent reading Part I. tyvm.

[Witsec7]

I seriously hope this was meant to be a quote from a fundie blog or something like that.

I read it through a couple of times. I don't think she was forgetting any quotation marks. I could be wrong. :think:

[Three and Done]

I read it through a couple of times. I don't think she was forgetting any quotation marks. I could be wrong. :think:

I was hoping the same... ?

[Witsec7]

Relief, I went to the link. She did forget the quotes.

[Marian the Librarian]

Mercy, that website! Pepto-Bismol never had it so pink.

[Three and Done]

Relief, I went to the link. She did forget the quotes.

Oh, that's good! I was VERY confused!

[erunerune]

There's a lesson here: quotes matter ppl!

[swissbeauty]

Fundies are sex obsessed. They are possibly some of the most sex-driven groups of people ever. Everything they do seems to revolve around modesty and homosexuality, virginity, "submitting" to the "Father"...like damn these people...

[Justme]

Recently we read 2 Samuel chapter 13 which recounts the rape of David’s virgin daughter Tamar by her half brother Amnon. The treachery of the assault and the way she was treated afterward by Amnon sparked quite a discussion about love, lust, incest, and sex. I found it off topic at the time, but dating was an issue raised as well.

/

humm.... my take on this verse is that brothers can't be trusted.... :think:

[Olive Plant]

"the resulting disrespect and loss of self-respect that always occurs when you give any parts of yourself to anyone other than your husband."

I'm reminded that I used to think this way. I LIVED this way. I can now say that this is not true. Can you lose your self-respect if you sleep around? Yes, you can. But "always"? Not true, not even a little bit. As I'm sure the vast majority of you know already, you can feel WAY more un-respected by a husband in bed than by a boyfriend. Marriage isn't magic, and it doesn't ensure that men won't be assholes. I never felt respected in bed until I found a guy I loved OUTSIDE of marriage. The sex isn't always perfect, but it has taught me a lot about how good and RESPECTFUL it can actually be. It's changed my whole attitude about sex. If we break up, I'll be taking that knowledge with me.

[shesinsane]

Dating and courtship:? With so many fundies saying they don't believe in dating, courtship only, I thought it was one or the other.

I'd imagine if you're dating, your significant other would be bothered if a third party was trying to court you. And vice versa.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Me: “When your fathers (my husband and their father are brothers) put certain boundaries in place for you, it is to protect you from being hurt by the fruits of lust and the resulting disrespect and loss of self-respect that always occurs when you give any parts of yourself to anyone other than your husband. This is one of the reasons you are not allowed to date.â€

My objection comes down to this line. All of it.

Let me list the wrongness:

1. Why is it only the fathers putting up boundaries? What about the mothers? What about teaching the kids themselves something about self-discipline?

2. Doesn't the story of Tamar and Amnon demonstrate that rape can be a threat anywhere (since Amnon was a half-brother)? Fathers can't magically protect girls at all times, and neither can "boundaries". Why not teach girls to protect themselves as much as possible, and learn what to do if a rape does happen?

3. Is she saying that being raped always leads to disrespect and loss of self-respect? Wow. Let's focus on decision-making and behavior instead.

4. If you tell kids that they won't be respected or respect themselves, isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy? Why not focus instead on the fact that they are worthy of respect?

5. What's with the "give away part of yourself" crap? Having sex isn't like removing a leg. It's a decision, it can have physical and emotional consequences, and you can talk realistically about those instead.

6. A husband also needs to respect a wife. Marital rape is still a violation.

7. If you don't like your sexual behavior, you can always change it. She makes it seem with this language that a woman is forever broken if she has premarital sex.

I know people who only dated for marriage purposes, and it worked for them.

I also don't think that it's bad advice to think about what traits you want in a partner. That's a matter of maturity and common sense. You can teach that as part of responsible decision-making, without the rest of the patriarchal BS.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

One of the commentators said she was a "wild child" when she was young because she had two kisses by age 19. :-)

[roddma]

I left a comment over there. Just waiting for reaction.

[debrand]

Knowing the story of Tamar makes the writers' interpretation even more sick. For those who don't know, King David had a buttload of wives. Some of those wives he had taken from other men.

I haven't read the story in years but the first time I did, I was 12. The book of Sammuel fascinated me but it did not strike me as romantic, at all.

Tamar's brother(don't know if he was a half brother or not) wanted to have sex with her. She would not have sex with him. So, he told his mother that he was dying and only a cake made by Tamar would cure him. She went to his house on a mission of mercy and baked him the cake. While she was there, he raped her and refused to marry her. This meant that she could never marry. The bible says that her rapist hated her.

In the bible, the punishment for a rapist should have been death. King David was upset by his daughter's attack but did nothing to punish her attacker. Later Tamar's brother, Absalom kills the brother who raped her. Absalom then goes on to try to take over his father's kingdom and have sex with his wives.

The real message of the story is that King David should have had his one son killed. It was his own refusal to apply the law to his children that led to his eventual downfall. It also plays into the fact that David was a deeply flawed man who probably followed his emotions.

The bible does not in anyway condemn Tamar or suggest that she was at fault. The reason that the writer in the OP believes Tamar must be at fault is because she views rape as being mainly the woman's fault.

[debrand]

:

Me: “When your fathers (my husband and their father are brothers) put certain boundaries in place for you, it is to protect you from being hurt by the fruits of lust and the resulting disrespect and loss of self-respect that always occurs when you give any parts of yourself to anyone other than your husband. This is one of the reasons you are not allowed to date.â€

http://terrybreathinggrace.wordpress.co ... ip-part-1/

“So Amnon pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, “Please let Tamar come to take care of me and cook something for me to eat.†– 2 Samuel 13:6

So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him. – 2 Samuel 13:7″

Tamar was doing what her father asked her to do and she was raped anyway. The reason the bible gives for her rape is simply that her half brother was stronger than her.

[AtroposHeart]

I for one am very curious about how the subject got changed from incest rape to dating.

[SPHASH]

Personal story here...my aunt was raped by one of my grandmother's brothers while she was a teen. The brother had gotten fired my my Grandpa so the brother wanted to retaliate. When my aunt told my grandma what happened, not only Grandma would not call the police, she actually defended her brother! She said "oh he wouldn't do that". The brother was a drunk and an all-around asshole who ended up in prison for murdering his wife's boyfriend. That was the problem in Grandma's family...instead of taking the right side they took the family members side.

The brother finally confessed on his deathbed 30+ years later. Then to add insult to injury, Grandma took care of the burial arrangements and had him buried in the same cemetery that Aunt and her husband were going to be buried in, their son was buried in that same cemetery too. This led to a permanent estrangement between Aunt and Grandma.

I don't know if Grandma was just dumb or evil.

[AtroposHeart]

Personal story here...my aunt was raped by one of my grandmother's brothers while she was a teen. The brother had gotten fired my my Grandpa so the brother wanted to retaliate. When my aunt told my grandma what happened, not only Grandma would not call the police, she actually defended her brother! She said "oh he wouldn't do that". The brother was a drunk and an all-around asshole who ended up in prison for murdering his wife's boyfriend. That was the problem in Grandma's family...instead of taking the right side they took the family members side.

The brother finally confessed on his deathbed 30+ years later. Then to add insult to injury, Grandma took care of the burial arrangements and had him buried in the same cemetery that Aunt and her husband were going to be buried in, their son was buried in that same cemetery too. This led to a permanent estrangement between Aunt and Grandma.

I don't know if Grandma was just dumb or evil.

I find they are usually synonymous

[kb2]

I for one am very curious about how the subject got changed from incest rape to dating.

Oh, you know: priorities.

[latraviata]

Fundies are sex obsessed. They are possibly some of the most sex-driven groups of people ever. Everything they do seems to revolve around modesty and homosexuality, virginity, "submitting" to the "Father"...like damn these people...

This!!