"Divided" the movie is now online 4 free.

[justlurking]

Watch it while you can: dividedthemovie.com

Come back and snark :D

[xDreamerx]

I'm trying to watch it. I don't know how far I'll get. I was wondering if other people could explain or a tell me a bit about this whole culture and youth ministry. To me it's completely alien and strange. Growing up Anglican, there was no such thing as youth group. That was something the United Church down the road did or the Pentecostals (I say this because my friend who sat beside me in school was Pentecostal and she was always talking about what she did at Youth Group) or pretty much any type of Protestant. At my church Sunday school took place during the service for the children. Once you were Confirmed you joined the regular congregation as an adult and sat through the Mass. In Sunday school, we have songs, collection, a little prayer and a Bible story sort of simplified to level of children, and then usually some game or craft based on what the story was about. Once I hit about 8 or so, after First Communion, I still did Sunday School but it was a bit more advanced and became just lessons. There were little worksheets with questions and answers. The idea of a Youth Minister wasn't there and the only time we sat down the Priest/Minister (people used different titles depending on whether they were slightly more Catholic or slightly more Protestant) was to prepare for Confirmation classes and we did lessons and then a written exam.

I realize some of it is demographics. Anglicans and Catholics tend to be old people. But just in general the idea that the Church and the people of your Church would be a force in your life rather than a weekly event seems strange to me. Apparently in Mormonism, one is encouraged to participate in the ward and they have things like Young Womens for girls etc. Is it similar or not so much? I genuinely don't mean to sound rude or stupid but I just don't know much about it.

[Crackedeggs]

Youth ministry around here is just another social club. My daughter has been through a few different groups, trying this and that.. she can only go where her social group now goes. One church has all the jocks and cheerleaders, another won't welcome kids from her school... it's just the same crap as what she gets 5 days a week at school, no God there.... she's better off going for a walk in the woods.

[failsafe]

More of the "if you don't believe MY brand of Christianity, you aren't a real Christian" bull. Honestly, I'm not impressed.

[justlurking]

If you FWD to the 28 minute mark you'll see that Voddie B. has shaved his head---someone's going through a mid-life crisis aren't they ;)

[xDreamerx]

I managed 20 minutes. Basically they think Sunday School and separating kids in church will cause them to leave the faith and like everything else fundies hate "destroy the family". Bullshit.

[samithemage]

I am always amused by the argument that "the Bible never said anything about X. It never even implied that the people even thought about X!" So if the Bible never mentioned it, then it obvious shouldn't exist. I guess they should get rid of their cars, washing machines, fridges, etc. Also, I'm pretty sure they should start drinking wine (not grape juice!), having multiple wives, and dancing, because as I recall those were all looked upon favorably in the Bible. Though, I went to Sunday School (the heathen Catholic version) and Youth Group, so I'm corrupted.

[JenniferJuniper]

It's mostly Greek to me also. I was "raised" Catholic although I completely stopped listening the day the parish priest and his assistant passed out pictures of aborted fetuses to my 5th grade CCD class right after Roe v. Wade passed. I distinctly recall thinking, "man, these two old geezers are sickos". (One was later arrested for soliciting sex from an undercover cop in a local park and the other left a note in his desk to be read after he died in which he apologized to all the underage girls he'd had sex with but that's another story for another day.)

The basic theme seems to be that Youth Ministries are very bad because they remove kids from their fathers' control and Christians need to return instead to an entirely patriarchal society were The Man is the leader and lawgiver over his wife and children.

I am still scratching my head over some of the strange historical connections these guys make. Like the guy who says the teaching of the theory of evolution is responsible for the fact that we separate kids into different age groups to be educated. Somehow it's related to accepting the notion that Neanderthals and Australopithecus actually existed. Don't quite get it, but it helps explain why the Duggars think it's a good thing to educate teen aged Joseph at the same table with toddler Jordyn.

[notsocommon]

Petty snark.....Ken Ham looks like an extra from planet of the apes. I have always thought so.

Young earth vs old earth...because, you know, that is completely a salvation issue! (BTW, my youth group as a whole believed in young and most still do) They no doubt picked the dopest old earthers and put them in the movie.

Ape man going on and on about this being THE critical issue? Yeah, I can tell you right now that it is thinking like that which makes our youth run for the hills the first second they can. If 'christian belief' is so contrary to obvious science and the 'church' decries science...what is a thinking person going to pick? It isn't a belief in evolution that destroys faith, it is the concept of science and faith being incompatible.

Does youth ministry need to be re-worked? Yes, it does. However, removing the whole concept, putting children completely under their fathers, telling them they are in danger of hell fire if hey disagree or even think differently, marrying them off as young as possible so they can pop out babies as early and quickly as possible is not the answer.

No where does the Bible say 'this is the ONLY' way you can do church. Just because he Bible records something does not mean that is THE way to do it. People meet in small groups, usually underground....because....DUH!!!! They were often persecuted and being found in a 'church' meant you were lion food.

Youth group came from some place other than the Bible!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN.... HORRORZZZZ!!!!

I fully agree that it is primarily the parents job to disciple children, it is a job I take seriously. I teach my daughter at home and I am involved in the Children's ministry at church. .....but some parents DON'T have a clue. My husband is still 'new' to the faith. He can't explain the finer points of scripture and doctrine. When the kid has a question, he often looks to me (Evil, I know!)

Then what of kids who have non-Christian parents (like me?) Who is to teach those kids who have parents who can't or won't disciple them? What happens when parents are hostile towards faith? I would not be in the faith today if it wasn't for my youth ministers and youth workers, and even fellow youth.....most of whom I am still in close contact with!

Some guy starts educating the poor children and church leaders flip a damn nut at the fear of something new...OH NOEZ!! When don't these people freak out at something new that may transform the culture? I think their objections had more to do with educating and helping the 'unworthy' than anything else. If these kids were getting an education on Sunday mornings they were not in church......and we all know the fundies hate education and love indoctrination! ( I am two drinks in, so I think I am getting foggy here)

I am not trusting FICers interpretation of what was said and the reasoning behind the early objections to SS. They twist everything to suit their own goals. Maybe something for me to look into on my own. Even if what FICers claim is accurate, that does not mean a damn thing.

Watching this dude lean back and his expressions in these interviews makes me think he's mighty full of himself.

.....and I rest my case. Modern education was formed by an ebbil atheist, therefore, education is bad, mmkay? Nothing good can ever come from an atheist!

Doug is SUCH a flamer.

So, now the concept of child development is evil because it is somehow related to evolution??? WHA??? How about this, we did not have the concept of childhood till recently, it is a fairly new idea. Children were looked upon as mini adults. Could it possibly be that as we learn more about ourselves, people started to see that children are NOT mini adults? That they have their own special needs? That they need to be taught differently? A 6-year-old IS very different from a 12-year-old, dumbass Douggie.

Just know this 'age segregation' is EVIL! It is Evolutionary and Pagan!

Is that V*ddie's house? DAYUM! I don't think the story about the ark can be twisted to mean what he thinks it can.

END FIRST HALF CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

[Burris]

LeClerc begins with the assumption youth who abandon Christianity are also turning their backs on maturity and adulthood, and then he comes to the conclusion youth groups are to blame.

I'm willing to bet a lot of those kids are appalled by their parents' hypocrisy: These parents go to church once a week and act like complete degenerates the other six day, for example by condemning the poor and the stranger with media-informed diatribes about how God helps those who help themselves. (Tip: That statement is not in the Bible.)

The kids might be disillusioned with light-weight youth groups as well, but that isn't what ultimately drives them away: They see what their parents do - and this also applies to all those fundie kids at age-integrated churches who nonetheless grow up to become what the Botkins call "Homeschool Drop-Outs."

[notsocommon]

Why do these people pretend that children are not in worship at a 'typical' church? News to me. Sunday school and other activities take place at a separate time. Children are present in worship at MOST churches! Just because Paul addressed children in worship does not mean the Bible is anti age appropriate Bible studies.

"God's pattern works in every culture?" How about NO.or rather NO to your interpretation of 'God's pattern.' Funny how we see Paul tailor his teaching to fit with the culture. Paul even used a pagan idol to preach about God! Something tells me these people would die f a heart attack of some modern preacher did something similar.

Even Jesus modified his style according to His audience.

Again, they are harping on what they did in the Bible. I am wondering why these people do not accept polygamy? The Bible records it, that is how things were done, and the verse about an elder being a man of ONE wife indicates that it was still common even in the church!

Didn't shadow guy in the trailer say that his retention level was ZERO? Now he said 20%. Can't be both.

I have NEVER in my life heard ANY church leader say "Give us your kids and let us seminary degreed people disciple your children for you!" Quite the contrary. I have always heard (and said as a ministry leader) that the church is only a small part of a child's discipleship.

Yes the Bible said fathers should teach their children, but Paul praised Timothy's mother and grandmother for teaching him! Paul did not seem to care that, apparently, Timothy did not have male leadership in this area (and it was PAUL who wrote that fathers should teach the kids!) They say that 'we should raise up fathers to do this" Again...what about kids of non-Christian parents? Oh, they are screwed. Nevermind. They weren't 'elect' or they would have been born in a 'Godly' family.

These people take super small snippets and hang the while gospel on them.

My youth group was the most stable thing I had as a teen.

They say people like me should be put under another man's authority if my dad was unwilling? Um, isn't that defeating the whole blasted point? They go on and on and on about how it is biblical for a child's FATHER to teach, how we need to transform fathers, they can't delegate this role to others.....but, we will toss the heathen kids under some other father's authority? What does it matter if I, from a non-christian family, was under a youth minister or under some other man? Consistency fail.

[justlurking]

There's so much fear and (so little) "research" in the NCFIC/VF circles about children who participate in youth based ministries "leaving the church", but I've never seen them take a look at the number of individuals who "return to church" later on in life or do an examination of new converts who are brought in by "segregated ministries". It's almost as if they're saying that if you weren't raised in a church and consistently attended all you're life then you're screwed forever!

From the video, I now know that Dougie feels that human development theories are EVIL :evil: , but according to Fowler, and his stages of spiritual development it is normal for most college-aged, young adults to desire individuation from their parent's beliefs and begin to take personal responsibility for their own beliefs and feelings (individuative-reflective). Most children who come from religious (particularly Christian) backgrounds are forced to go to church as often as their parents require it. It's usually not until college that young adults are able to really make the choice for themselves as to how they will handle their own spirituality. The only difference between most college-aged kids and the NCFIC/VF crowd is that most "normal" young adults are given the freedom/option to make their own decisions about their spiritual life without having to feel as if they will be disowned/shunned from their communities if they choose to live differently.

Dougie and the gang would have you believe that young adults are "leaving the faith" at this time because youth ministries did not/cannot effectively disciple them, when in reality it is more a symptom of them going through a human development stage. The reason why the NCFIC model APPEARS to be so "effective" in keeping young adults in the church is because the parents intentionally choose to stunt their children's growth and ability to move on to the next development stage by keeping them as SAHD and SAHS. In the first three stages of spiritual development individuals rely on some authority outside of themselves for their spiritual beliefs. NCFIC/VF intends to keep people in these first three stages (hence the emphasis on authority) which is why they often come off appearing cultish.

[notsocommon]

The only difference between most college-aged kids and the NCFIC/VF crowd is that most "normal" young adults are given the freedom/option to make their own decisions about their spiritual life without having to feel as if they will be disowned/shunned from their communities if they choose to live differently.

and

The reason why the NCFIC model APPEARS to be so "effective" in keeping young adults in the church is because the parents intentionally choose to stunt their children's growth and ability to move on to the next development stage by keeping them as SAHD and SAHS.

~~~~~~~

THIS!!! Nail, head, bang!

The kids who grow up in these circles do not have a real choice unless they literally want to give up EVERYTHING!

Oh, and I asked in a FB convo with people from V's church about those that return, typically once they have their own children. According to them, no one ever returns. About 1/3 of the people in my age group at my church would disagree.

I can also say that many churches do not have efective college ministry and that can make people drop out as well.

[Marian the Librarian]

Kevin Swanson (approx. 34 minutes) = Major Drama Queen. He's ready for his closeup, Mr. DeMille.

[notsocommon]

Kevin Swanson (approx. 34 minutes) = Major Drama Queen. He's ready for his closeup, Mr. DeMille.

Watch the Extra " Hope for the future" and :shock: :lol: then :angry-screaming:

[lilah]

Let's call a spade a spade, I was reading Voddie's debate with another reformed baptist about family integrated churches and the whole thing sounds a patriarchal father worship power trip. The idea is that a family that worships together puts the father as the spiritual authority for his whole family without those pesky children's ministries or women's bible study groups to undermine the man's authority (suddenly imagining cartman saying "respect my authoritah!!!!"

). It's just another way for patriarchal men to feel more in control of their family and to place himself at the center of the universe for father-worship.

Anyway the pastor argues rather brilliantly (http:// reformedbaptistfellowship.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/the-relation-of-church-and-family/) that the FIC worships the famiy over the individual, that the church is a family of believers and should be about individual relationships vs family one.

[Marian the Librarian]

And in the extra, "Church Leaders Who Promote Carnality" -- mercy, the titillation. Paul Washer (with just a hint of a well-timed sob) compares the church to his wife being assaulted by men on her way to the grocery store.

[finleeport]

I don't understand the point of this movie. Do the grown-ups want their children to listen to their sermons and never leave the family or something? What is this trying to teach?

[FloraDoraDolly]

Random thoughts/impressions:

1. Did anyone else notice that almost everyone interviewed in this documentary was male? That's one huge reason why the fundamentalist chuches are losing so many young people right there. They are disenfranchising 50 percent of their potential membership by excluding them, ignoring their opinions, or by relegating them to helpmeet status. And as much as these male church leaders like to talk about God's specially ordained role for women, only the truly brainwashed are going to buy into it at a time in history when even the fundie lites are fielding their own female presidential candidates.

2. How can we be sure that 80 percent of young people really are leaving the church? Sure, they might be leaving the fundamentalist churches, but the documentary showed these same kids at a Christian rock concert. Why would they be there if they had truly turned their backs on their faith? Those kids may not measure up to fundie standards of how a Christian "should" behave or dress, but their words and actions in the documentary indicate that they still believe on some level. I can picture a lot of them returning to the church once they've grown up and settled down, but it they'll probably go fundie lite or mainline.

3. The way I see it, the fundies' insistence on a literal interpretation of the Bible is what's really pushing young people out the door. The dialogue about young Earth creation vs. old Earth creation says it all right there. In this day and age, most people simply cannot believe in the notion that God created the universe in six literal Earth days and that all of this happened 6,000-10,000 years ago. They might believe God created the universe billions of years ago. They might believe God directed the evolutionary process. Or they might believe God created everything, but we don't know exactly how. However, the fundies won't have it any other way but their own. They also expect intelligent, educated adults to believe that the Old Testament stories about Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, David and Goliath, and Jonah and the whale are literally true, not to mention Methuselah who supposedly lived to be over 900 years old. When the documentary mentioned how many kids mentally leave the church in middle school or even earlier, I suspected this was what they meant. You'd get the same results if you expected these 11-year-olds to keep believing in Santa Claus, or else. And by "believing in Santa Claus", I mean literally believing in the bearded man in the red suit who comes down the chimney and brings you toys rather than maturing into a belief in the spirit of giving or a belief in helping those who are less fortunate.

[Blonde Hedonist]

Thanks for the link, I need a diversion.

P.S. I like this new forum, good to be back :)

[erunerune]

This movie sounds so boring - the fundie media-whore in me just can't muster enough enthusiasm to click over, much as I appreciate the link being made available!

But will that stop me from giving my opinion? Oh hell no:

Is this supposed to be a recruitment film for potential NFIC members, maybe ones who are feeling lost in the shuffle at their current, more mainstream churches? Cause everyone's a special snowflake in Dougie's world, right?

or

Is it feel-good, self-congratulatory propaganda for the already NFIC-indoctrinated, as in "we are so lucky to be watching this crappy movie that Dougie's pets have made for us"?

There seems to be some obvious fear-mongering going on, but it just seems fairly superfluous given how narrow this audience for this type of flick likely is.

Oh, and remember I haven't watched the movie, but might change my mind if I get desperate enough.

[SweetTexasCrude]

I can't get over how a quarter of this movie is b-roll of the host in transit. He flies! He drives! He walks! He even takes elevators!

Oh, and the shrunken vest is distracting. What an odd wardrobe choice.

[Marian the Librarian]

I agree with SweetTexasCrude, much of the film is b-roll of its strutting maker. It strikes me that this was a made-for-film version of the "position papers" that Scott Brown made Peter Bradrick write before he'd even consider him as a potential suitor for Kelly. It's a vehicle for "Look at what good fundie husband material I am, parroting the elders getting all verklempt about keeping a tight grip on the multi-generational vision." And indeed, Philip Leclerc recently married (http://estherzimmermanDOTblogspotDOTcom), thus joining the Lord And Master ranks.

[BlackHawk]

They seem (I have only read the posts here, no time to watch it just yet) to talk a lot about FATHERS teaching their children... but don't the mother's do the homeschooling? Isn't that... off from what they say?

[finleeport]

What was this movie trying to teach anyway? I couldn't get where there going at.