Do Mennonites/Mennolites court or date?

[terranova]

The Yoder family yoderfarm.blogspot.com have an announcement on their blog about their son Logan and a girl, Sandy. They don't say anything else but it's a safe assumption they are dating/courting. In the previous post they talk about "dating" couples. I would have thought these people would go for the 6 inch rule, courting etc etc.

I think these people are Menno-lite or faux Mennonites? Or perhaps lapsed? I know there are many many sects so I don't know how to catagorise them. Anyone?

[dawbs]

THe few I knew well 'dated'.

Of course, the few I knew were definitely not fundie and were a pretty liberal sect.

[Peas n carrots]

Mennonites run the gamut from nearly Amish to uber liberal. All my Mennonite friends in high school dated whoever they liked, had premarital sex, dressed normally etc. All around, they were 100% mainstream.

As I understand, even the more conservative Mennonites date, but I think they tend to have fewer boyfriends and usually delay premarital sex.

A great website to learn more about anabaptists is amishamerica.com. It's not limited to just Amish. But from everything I have read on there it seems like Amish/conservative Mennonite dating is closer to mainstream dating than fundie dating.

[mrs]

Could they be Beachy Amish Mennonite?

Check them out on Wikipedia.

[Peas n carrots]

The Yoder family yoderfarm.blogspot.com have an announcement on their blog about their son Logan and a girl, Sandy. They don't say anything else but it's a safe assumption they are dating/courting. In the previous post they talk about "dating" couples. I would have thought these people would go for the 6 inch rule, courting etc etc.

I think these people are Menno-lite or faux Mennonites? Or perhaps lapsed? I know there are many many sects so I don't know how to catagorise them. Anyone?

Btw...it's called the Anabaptists escalator. You have your uber conservative Amish such as the Nebraska Amish and Swartzendruber Amish, then the Andy Weaver Amish, then Old Order Amish, New Order Amish then Beachy Amish.

When it comes to th Anabaptists escalator, it is based purely on the level of technological acceptance. Whereas Nebraska Amish won't even put screens on their doors, Beachy Amish drive cars and use the Internet.

So called moral guidelines dont necessarily apply to the AE either. Many sects of Swartzendruber still practice bundling, in which unmarried dating couples are allowed to sleep in bed with each other before marriage. Also many of the groups on the low end of the escalator allow some alcohol and tobacco use. On the other hand New Order Amish do not allow bundling and are anti tobacco/alcohol.

Keeping this all straight? ;)

Mennonites overlap with the Amish more than being the next step up the escalator. I think the main difference between Amish and Mennonite is that Mennonites typically have meeting houses for worship whiles Amish worship in each others homes in their church district (but once again, this is not 100% all across the board true either!). Old Order Mennonites only use horse/carriage transport, for example. Then you have my friends, who never bothered dressing plain nor did the girls wear the kapps (my bf in high school who was Mennonite called them coffee filters...her term, not mine!)

[xDreamerx]

On the Living with the Amish Channel 4 series, one of the Mennonite girls showed the girls her parlor. She explained it as her dating room, that she got to decorate and use for dates. Once she was married, the next sister would use it in birth order. She said they were allowed to be alone in the room and talk. Later, she explained that she would not have premarital sex but some kissing would be ok.

Other sects of Amish featured, or that I've read about, have completely hands off courtships more like the fundies we snark on. From what I can gather it varies by sect and by the Order of that community and its elders.

[Peas n carrots]

On the Living with the Amish Channel 4 series, one of the Mennonite girls showed the girls her parlor. She explained it as her dating room, that she got to decorate and use for dates. Once she was married, the next sister would use it in birth order. She said they were allowed to be alone in the room and talk. Later, she explained that she would not have premarital sex but some kissing would be ok.

Other sects of Amish featured, or that I've read about, have completely hands off courtships more like the fundies we snark on. From what I can gather it varies by sect and by the Order of that community and its elders.

Varies by sect and even within a sect it varies by the church district's ordnung. At least with most Amish that I'm aware of the young woman has a lot more freedom in choosing her life partner than a lot of fundie kids.

[Wolfie]

Btw...it's called the Anabaptists escalator. You have your uber conservative Amish such as the Nebraska Amish and Swartzendruber Amish, then the Andy Weaver Amish, then Old Order Amish, New Order Amish then Beachy Amish.

When it comes to th Anabaptists escalator, it is based purely on the level of technological acceptance. Whereas Nebraska Amish won't even put screens on their doors, Beachy Amish drive cars and use the Internet.

So called moral guidelines dont necessarily apply to the AE either. Many sects of Swartzendruber still practice bundling, in which unmarried dating couples are allowed to sleep in bed with each other before marriage. Also many of the groups on the low end of the escalator allow some alcohol and tobacco use. On the other hand New Order Amish do not allow bundling and are anti tobacco/alcohol.

Keeping this all straight? ;)

Mennonites overlap with the Amish more than being the next step up the escalator. I think the main difference between Amish and Mennonite is that Mennonites typically have meeting houses for worship whiles Amish worship in each others homes in their church district (but once again, this is not 100% all across the board true either!). Old Order Mennonites only use horse/carriage transport, for example. Then you have my friends, who never bothered dressing plain nor did the girls wear the kapps (my bf in high school who was Mennonite called them coffee filters...her term, not mine!)

As a liberal Mennonite myself, I've never heard of the term "Anabaptist Escalator." There are a lot more liberal Mennonites than you mention, generally members of the Mennonite Brethren or Mennonite Church, who look like any other mainstream Christian.

I wouldn't consider Mennonites "Fundy, " Even the conservative groups, it's just a different sort of thing. And for the original poster- I've never known anybody (even friend's parents who grew up Amish) who wasn't allowed to date.

[Peas n carrots]

As a liberal Mennonite myself, I've never heard of the term "Anabaptist Escalator." There are a lot more liberal Mennonites than you mention, generally members of the Mennonite Brethren or Mennonite Church, who look like any other mainstream Christian.

I wouldn't consider Mennonites "Fundy, " Even the conservative groups, it's just a different sort of thing. And for the original poster- I've never known anybody (even friend's parents who grew up Amish) who wasn't allowed to date.

Above I mentioned growing up with many liberal Mennonite friends, who were 100% mainstream....asides from the odd grandma who wore a knapp and a plain-ish dress I never encountered more conservative Mennonites.

I don't remember who coined the Anabaptist escalator term, but it seems to be more or less a term used amongst sociologists who study Amish society.

socihttp://books.google.com/books?id=SvxpZ37sRd8C&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=anabaptist+escalator&source=bl&ots=pnJYL8RI_l&sig=rFmNEZsQofYp_KEgcYux3RxDhfU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N484T73tHcq3twea1OmwAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=anabaptist%20escalator&f=falseologists

What I was getting at was Mennonites have some parallels to the Amish, but not necessarily more technologically advanced than Amish...hence my mention of Old Order Mennonites.

[tropaka]

I remember reading once that there are so many sects/groups of Amish and Mennonites because every time there's a tech advance some group or another will be against it and break off. Sounds like they're just as varied as any other group (it was a tongue in cheek description, but not far off according to one of my friends who called herself "modern mennonite".

The fundies we talk about like to make a big deal about how courtship is not dating - but it is, just super supervised and with more pressure.

[xDreamerx]

This is a bit random but I was reminded of the novel A Complicated Kindness. The girl in it is Mennonite but she's not exactly what you would expect. She's very modernized.

[notamishwithcars]

I am a Mennonite. My husband and I "dated" in a more conventional way. When we decided to marry, it was with the encouragement of our pastoral couple (yep a husband and wife pastoral team) and lots and lots of pre marital meetings. They also met with us for years afterwards to talk with us about our marriage. We were not "in LUV" in the way you might see in the movies (yep- I have seen movies), but rather we knew (and our pastors knew) that we would be a good match for one another. Love, in a western sense, starts as a large flame and over time cools to embers. In our marriage, it began with a small spark and has grown to a roaring flame. 20 years later--things have never been better. This really only works with great community support and individual commitment.

The key for me, was that I had a choice of spouse as well as options outside marriage and childbearing.

I worry about girls who see only one option for their lives- as if God only has one purpose for us.

My experience is not universal. Nor is my experience optimal.

My headcovering is a PRAYER COVERING, my marriage is egalitarian. We are co-equal heirs in salvation.

Humbly.

L

[bananacat]

I think that even the most strict Amish don't practice courting in the way our fundies do. At the very least, the community hosts events for young people to get together and meet each other, instead of keeping them isolated until Daddy hand-picks a child of one of his associates. A group date with peers of your own age is so much better than dragging your 7 year-old sister everywhere as a chaperone.

[CustardTart]

. You have your uber conservative Amish such as the Nebraska Amish

Wow, I thought I've read everything there is to know about the Amish, but I've never heard of the Nebraska Amish. VERY interesting. Thanks.

[samurai_sarah]

I think that even the most strict Amish don't practice courting in the way our fundies do. At the very least, the community hosts events for young people to get together and meet each other, instead of keeping them isolated until Daddy hand-picks a child of one of his associates. A group date with peers of your own age is so much better than dragging your 7 year-old sister everywhere as a chaperone.

I was wondering about that, although approaching it from a linguistic angle. I'm nowhere near the Amish, but every time I see and hear them on telly, I can understand Pennsylvania Dutch to a reasonable degree, i.e.: not every single word, definitely can't speak it, but my local German dialect is close enough. Point being, in my local dialect we use words and phrases that translate to "courting" or "paying court to someone" to describe dating/boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. But it's not the same concept as fundie courtships at all. In modern German, it just sounds ludicrously old-fashioned, but it's just a local way of saying that someone is seeing someone else. (For fellow German-speakers: I mean "freien/hoffieren/jemandem den Hof machen" - definitely not universally used, but still used in my local dialect, back in "Hintertupfingen" (the back of beyond).)

So, I wonder if maybe it's a matter of translation, rather than strict patriarchal concept in the fundie sense?

ETA: I realise this is sounds like a bit of a leap, jumping to conclusions just because our dialects are similar enough. I'm not a professional linguist, just interested and all old-fashioned German terms I can come up with, I would translate with "courting" or "paying court". So it is just as likely that I am projecting, assuming that the Amish would make the same choices in translating as I. :oops:

[Elle]

Even the very conservative Mennonites tend to allow a measure of rebellion, and to even encourage it. Rumspringa. To make sure that the youngsters know both sides and are there of as much of they own choosing as can be. If you don't join, you're cut off from your family, but at least you're given a taste of the other side. Unfortunately a lot of youngsters go haywire the second they're in the real world and get into trouble.

Anyway of the Mennonites I've known, it was like a blend of the two. Daddy didn't hand-pick since they're so isolated that any young man in the group is going to be acceptable. But they don't date like we think of it.

[holierthanyou]

Even the very conservative Mennonites tend to allow a measure of rebellion, and to even encourage it. Rumspringa. To make sure that the youngsters know both sides and are there of as much of they own choosing as can be. If you don't join, you're cut off from your family, but at least you're given a taste of the other side. Unfortunately a lot of youngsters go haywire the second they're in the real world and get into trouble.

Anyway of the Mennonites I've known, it was like a blend of the two. Daddy didn't hand-pick since they're so isolated that any young man in the group is going to be acceptable. But they don't date like we think of it.

Rumspringa is Amish, not Mennonite. The jokes is that Amish youth are rowdy and leave the church in their teens during Rumspringa, but come back to join and contribute to the church community through the rest of their lives as adults. Mennonites do service work and worship humbly during their youth, and then as adults become disenchanted and leave the church for the rest of their lives.

[sableduck]

My sister is marrying a guy who grew up old order mennonite. Read that: horse and buggy, no electricity, almost Amish.

He said that they date in secret, often kept even from the parents until it is really serious. Nobody else even knows until the wedding is just a few weeks away. Its very, very hands off. This has frustrated my parents a bit because he has no idea why he is invited to family events, why they expect my sister(who is young and still lives at home) to at least tell them what time she will be home, etc. He has the idea that my parents should know absolutely nothing about their dating life, and my parents see that as controlling and somewhat concerning. I suspect it is merely a culture clash that he doesn't have the ability to explain, and my sister is, well, on the naive side.

His parents have left the Old Order but still subscribe to the clothing and gender rules, etc. The Mennonites do not shun, so they expect many of his relatives to attend the wedding(Culture Clash #2 is that my parents have refused to pay for a wedding that includes literally 250 of his relatives, as it is a traditional American wedding with a full, catered dinner, and they are giving them the same amount towards the wedding that the rest of us got. Apparently it is not unusual for them to have very, very large weddings, held at home)

The whole thing is pretty interesting.

[Elle]

Rumspringa is Amish, not Mennonite. The jokes is that Amish youth are rowdy and leave the church in their teens during Rumspringa, but come back to join and contribute to the church community through the rest of their lives as adults. Mennonites do service work and worship humbly during their youth, and then as adults become disenchanted and leave the church for the rest of their lives.

Some Mennonites are Amish and Amish are Mennonites. Mennonites and Amish started as the same Anabaptist church, and then there was a separation into Amish by some who felt that the mainstream was becoming too worldly. The most conservative and old-world Mennonites are likely to be Amish.

[faeriequeene]

They look like conservative Mennonites to me. I knew some beachy Amish in my old town, and they dressed more "plainly". These people wear some relatively modern-looking clothes, even if modest ones. Not sure about the courting/dating, though.

[farmwifegina]

IMHO, having grown up exposed to and a part of many of these "plain" circles, I would put the Yoders in a camp comprised of people who may have come from a Mennonite background, but probably don't out and out call themselves Mennonite, probably because they don't want to be associated with the rules and standards of the conservative Mennonite church. In my experience, this camp kind of drifts somewhere between the Charity groups, the conservative Mennonites, with a little IFB/ATI and maybe even some holy roller Pentecostal thrown into the mix. They probably consider themselves to have more freedom from legalism than their Mennonite counterparts. "Look! We don't all wear the same head coverings, dress styles, etc.!"

This stripe (camp, flavor, stripe, color, whathaveyou) probably leans more towards the courting standard than actual conservative Mennonites would. It depends on the family, but my guess is that there is still a request to date the daughter made to the father, dating with intention (not just for "fun", to see if this person is complementary marriage material), short engagements, and so on and so forth. Hands off or not probably differs from couple to couple, family to family, but saving the first kiss for the wedding day is probably not unusual.

But, as you can tell by all the probablys I just included, this is all just an educated guess. Although, a pretty well educated guess considering I've recognized people in some of the photos on the Yoder family blog and am familiar with a lot of people in these circles.