Why VF/ATI?

[AmyP]

Why do you think people choose to follow these rigid lifestyles? What is the appeal?

 

Many of you have direct experience, I would love to hear your opinions. I would love to hear the opinions of those who are not from a VF/ATI background as well.

[finleeport]

In a way, its kinda like alluring, because most people want to have a 'perfect' life. The rest is just brainwashing.

[Anxious Girl]

In a way, its kinda like alluring, because most people want to have a 'perfect' life. The rest is just brainwashing.

^This, so much.

[doggie]

Plus they need someone to make the decisions for them and they can get high from their belief in god. God endorphins make them feel good thinking the way they do.

[Visionoyahweh]

Quick, easy answers to EVERYTHING is very alluring.

[Creaky Mom]

Christianity is too easy otherwise.

[AmyP]

Plus they need someone to make the decisions for them and they can get high from their belief in god. God endorphins make them feel good thinking the way they do.

but most people don't want other people to make decisions for them. not consciously anyway. I mean- how many people do you know that would say "I want people to make decisions for me"?

[holierthanyou]

but most people don't want other people to make decisions for them. not consciously anyway. I mean- how many people do you know that would say "I want people to make decisions for me"?

I think some adults do want that. It might be particularly appealing for those with a tendency towards black/white thinking who prefer concrete absolutes over abstract reasoning. Following "rules" provides a sense of comfort and security to a few personalities.

[doggie]

but most people don't want other people to make decisions for them. not consciously anyway. I mean- how many people do you know that would say "I want people to make decisions for me"?

they want god top make them they don't want the responsibility of the decisions. I mean the whole leaving the family size up to god is a classic example of shirking responsibility. it's easier to let god then if it goes wrong you are not to blame. there are plenty of people like that. Gothard thrives on it.

[uber frau]

1. Rules make the world a safe place for some ppl

2. It reinforces the prejudices ppl already have

3. Gives ppl who haven't had the best educational or financial resources something to feel morally superior about.

4. Happy Shiny ppl sell well. The Bittner blog is a good example of how things good things can look.

[bananacat]

Vyckie explained it pretty well on the NLQ blog. A big part of it is that the people promoting the lifestyle don't tell all the truth up front. They start with just a few rules and regulations and make big promises, so it seems like a worthwhile trade-off. But as you keep going, more and more rules pile up until you are nearly dying from a dangerous homebirth while your 5 other young children are overburdened with adult chores at a young age. Vyckie said that when she first got involved, she never imagined that it would end the way it did. If someone had told her from the start how many rules she would have to follow, she wouldn't have joined in the first place.

I do feel like it's somewhat dishonest. The Duggars portray themselves as a big happy family to lure people in, but they don't let the cameras film the blanket training or other dangerous aspects of their cult.

[Georgiana]

Some I have read include people that come from homes that are other than a stable, happy household. This includes homes with abuse, homes with addiction, and all manner of other home environments. Initially, it was a two fold desire: first, the husband and wife embraced fundamentalism as a way to belong to a unit and receive the sense of safety, belonging, and acceptance they were denied growing up and second, they very much wanted to give their children the perfect life they never had.

In the first place, I think some people come into the movement very vulnerable because of their pasts, and perhaps more vulnerable still mentally because they are trying to create something they have often idealized from the outside looking in. If you come from a truly happy place and have a happy home-life as a model, you are often more realistic about what that entails. But if that's something you've never personally experienced, you may be more inclined to believe that it's all about "submission", "godliness", and continual pregnancy.

Also, I feel like there's almost a predatory nature to the movement. So often I hear stories of women who for one reason or another are vulnerable, and the men who sweep in, "save them", and lock them in the movement. I always wonder what Zsu was going through for her to end up with PP. She certainly has little enough POSITIVE to say about her childhood/homeland.

Obviously, this isn't the case for all families. The Duggars and the Bates are a great counter example. But I think there's a fair few that this is true for.

[Lala]

My parents were involved in ATI because my mom came from un-Christian, abusive home. The church that she went to growing up (by herself) was very legalistic. To fit in and "be a christian", she needed to follow the rules. If you grow up in a church that is focused on rules and what not to do, it only makes sense that someone would find this lifestyle normal. My dad liked it because it gave him so much power. He's very passive-aggressive and this way HE wasn't the one telling my mom to be submissive. So he didn't look like a jerk.

[Shana]

Loving this topic! I found the NLQ blog awhile back and remember reading about how it was a slow process. That made sense to me. Like, the way you fall in to an abusive relationship, it happens bit by bit.

[Deleted07]

The allure for me when I was looking into religions was to belong and also to fit in.

Also I think being scared of the afterlife is a big factor for a lot of people.

For a lot of years I was scared of if I would die, I would go to hell and such. And that scared the heck out of me, and look if I'm honest still does.

BUT I came to the realisation the hoops, and hypocrisy and judgements that were in place within the churches were intolerable to live with, and it was like living a hell on earth. So if I am to go to hell, I rather it be on my own terms knowing I did so having lead a full and happy life, not offending or judging or being a hypocrite in the name of some God that has never done a thing to help me understand him.

[Mango]

I think a lot of it is interestingly similar to what some folks involved in the BDSM lifestyle describe as the appeal of 24/7 power exchange- the fantasy that following the rules means 100% will result in a 100% positive outcome (and ties in to the fantasy of control that permeates some abusive relationships 'if I just act like X, I can keep him from doing Y'). There are a lot of people who are really and truly AFRAID of uncertainty, and need to believe that they can control the outcome of things by acting a certain way- and they don't want to guess at what that way is, they want someone to tell them so they can get it right. .

Mango

(This is NOT to imply that a nice kinky relationship is a bad thing. It's like religion- there's lots of perfectly nice ethical religious people out there- but there are also some really unbalanced people who use it to justify all sorts of not-good things.)

[sippin0nsunshine]

If you grow up in a church that is focused on rules and what not to do, it only makes sense that someone would find this lifestyle normal. My dad liked it because it gave him so much power. He's very passive-aggressive and this way HE wasn't the one telling my mom to be submissive. So he didn't look like a jerk.

I agree this seems like it could be the case with a lot of the families.

Also, it seems The Duggars in particular fell into the movement after their (supposed) miscarriage. Like others have said, maybe they wanted control after tragedy? I've heard stories of people going through hard times and turning to religion. This seems like the same situation kind of.

[JuJuBee]

I think some people also feel overwhelmed by the world and want someone else to tell them what to do. Instead of seeing all their possible options (different colleges, careers, family, children, hobbies, travel) as exciting, they panic and can't make their own decisions. This might be especially true of people with unstable childhoods and controlling parents. In a sense, they never really grow up and become their own person; they always need that parental figure making their decisions for them.

[dawbs]

I think some people also feel overwhelmed by the world and want someone else to tell them what to do. Instead of seeing all their possible options (different colleges, careers, family, children, hobbies, travel) as exciting, they panic and can't make their own decisions. This might be especially true of people with unstable childhoods and controlling parents. In a sense, they never really grow up and become their own person; they always need that parental figure making their decisions for them.

This.

I think it's surprising at first blush how many adults want someone else to make decisions...and then, when you ponder on it a bit, it's somewhat understandable. And I think there are a lot of paths people choose to abdicate their responsibility to a 'higher' power.

I have a family member/IL who is retiring from the military shortly. He's pretending he's not a wreck about getting out but we all know he's a wreck about it. He, in many ways, joined so he could turn off his brain (no, the military isn't 100% brainless drones. But there are some)--he doesn't know how to dress w/o a uniform. He doesn't know how to interact with people w/o pissing people off. He doesn't know how to deal with rules that have any form of 'gray area'. He doesn't know how to be firm wihile remaining polite. He knows, however, how to follow orders and be a brainless drone.

I wonder how he can live like that--but at other times, I'll have to admit there's a small part of me that wishes I could not question things and have it decided for me and have it not be all my fault. (then I shake myself and turn on my brain :)

[freehannie]

I also think that for people who grew up in abusive homes they expect to have to be perfect in order to receive love. They've internalized that to such an extent that the idea that they are worthy of love simply by existing is so foreign that they always feel like they have to work really hard for it. And they feel generally unworthy without all that effort. If you grew up always jumping through hoops trying to please someone who has unreasonable expectations, it's very difficult to change that pattern for a healthy pattern. I just see them repeating what they learned in a new situation. What is so sad is that it's highly unlikely to have the results they desire like feeling at peace or happy because they deny so much of themselves in order to be accepted. Not too mention that they teach their children to continue this.

I also think that the instant community and acceptance is very appealing to someone who has been without support. Once they become accustomed to having that community, they are willing to follow the rules in order to maintain that.

[Avalondaughter]

I think for women, the lure can be the promise of an easier path.

What if you're a young girl who isn't particularly good in school, has no exceptional talents, and no idea what she wants for a career. She sees rosy pictures on TV of SAHM and imagines how great life could be if she could just be Carol Brady and spend her time with her children and taking care of the house and let her Mike make the money. Some women truly do love spending all of their time with their kids (not that there is anything wrong with wanting a career or other adult time) and want to make watching over them a full-time job. The patriarchal lifestyle seems like paradise. Imagine never having to worry about making money. Imagine never having to settle for a career path. Your man will TAKE CARE OF YOU like a man should. It's a great way to surrender responsibility for your life. It's in God's hands. It's in your husband's hands.

Making your own choices can be scary. You might make the wrong one and screw up your life. It's better to let someone else make your choices for you.

[Austin]

I think for women, the lure can be the promise of an easier path.

What if you're a young girl who isn't particularly good in school, has no exceptional talents, and no idea what she wants for a career. She sees rosy pictures on TV of SAHM and imagines how great life could be if she could just be Carol Brady and spend her time with her children and taking care of the house and let her Mike make the money. Some women truly do love spending all of their time with their kids (not that there is anything wrong with wanting a career or other adult time) and want to make watching over them a full-time job. The patriarchal lifestyle seems like paradise. Imagine never having to worry about making money. Imagine never having to settle for a career path. Your man will TAKE CARE OF YOU like a man should. It's a great way to surrender responsibility for your life. It's in God's hands. It's in your husband's hands.

Making your own choices can be scary. You might make the wrong one and screw up your life. It's better to let someone else make your choices for you.

There are a myriad of reasons why women who were not raised in a fundie tradition might find it alluring, as others have mentioned. I do think one of the main reasons is connected with the bolded: they simply do not want to have to grow up. Fully autonomous, self-determined individuals must make their own decisons and take responsibility for them. This is apparently very scary for a lot of people, but most people do the hard work of becoming a grown up. These fundie convert women are just relieved that they can remain permanently infantalized and someone else can be responsible for making the tough calls, even if it means they have to "submit" to that someone else.

I see it as a rather Faustian bargain.

[emmiedahl]

I think for many, the allure is that they can feel superior. We all want to feel like we are little better than others in some way, that we are special.

So they form a group that mixes faith with an extreme but not-too-hard-on-the-whole life. Michelle, who actually had a choice in VF/ATI, does less than the average mother of two and pulls in Mother-of-the-Year awards. If she had stopped at 3 or 4 kids and cared for them herself, she would be doing a lot more and getting less recognition. The children have a harder lot, but they are not the ones who made the choice.

[bellicosebroad]

I think for many, the allure is that they can feel superior. We all want to feel like we are little better than others in some way, that we are special.

I think that's true, and I also think that many want to revert to childhood, where they nostalgically (and inaccurately) paint things as having been super-rosy, where Mom and Dad took care of everything, they were blissful and carefree, and had no responsibilities. Suddenly, religion gives them a chance to have that, in theory, with a loving and stern "father" in charge. They don't even have to be responsible for their treatment of others or their own actions, because "God" either directed them to do what they did (abusive behavior toward their kids, frex) or will forgive them for their sins. And if they're women, it goes even further, if they accept patriarchy and put husbands in charge of them, the wives, as "heads of household." I can't see wanting that (I didn't like having others be in charge of me the first time around, either, so it's not attractive), but I hear so many people being nostalgic about their childhoods and how "free" they were. I think they're probably not remembering all the trials and tribulations they actually went through as kids because they're looking back with adults' perspectives and not as the kids they were, but anyway. Patriarchal religion looks attractive if you want to be childlike and "taken care of," badly enough to suspend critical thinking.

[bellicosebroad]

There are a myriad of reasons why women who were not raised in a fundie tradition might find it alluring, as others have mentioned. I do think one of the main reasons is connected with the bolded: they simply do not want to have to grow up. Fully autonomous, self-determined individuals must make their own decisons and take responsibility for them. This is apparently very scary for a lot of people, but most people do the hard work of becoming a grown up. These fundie convert women are just relieved that they can remain permanently infantalized and someone else can be responsible for making the tough calls, even if it means they have to "submit" to that someone else.

Yup.