No such thing as a failed courtship

[Pearl]

What I find interesting about her post is that rather than say that courtship didn't work for her she said that it was the right thing. The weirdest thing I find about the courtship advocates is that they say that dating leads to people giving away pieces of their heart - but I can't believe that she didn't cry in her pillow when this was all over.

http://110surrendered.blogspot.com/2010/03/success.html

I'm not as articulate or intellectual as the lot of you, so hopefully I'll express myself okay.

The thing about dating is that if the person dating is a Christian, presumably that person is dating with the idea of marriage on the mind. The person dates, finds out their boyfriend/girlfriend isn't right for them break up and then eventually date someone else.

With courtship it seems to be the same thing: you have chaperoned dates, e-mail, talk on the phone, and if the person involved isn't the one for you, you break it off and start over again.

What's the difference? The emotions are the same.

In fact, I would say there might be more devastation in a courtship ending because the expectation in the beginning is to be married as soon as possible and if the courtship falls through the woman (because I don't believe the males get this type of scrutiny) is probably looked down on or seen to be at fault.

As for the physical part - there are a lot of dating couples that don't kiss, and I'm sure there are quite a few courtship couples that do kiss. It's a personal preference thing.

I do want to say that I'm glad this girl isn't wallowing in her misery and that she is trying to put a good spin on it. Breaking up is hard to do.

[maybeizfundie]

I'm glad it was ended prior to the kind of lifelong committment and entanglement that marriage would have meant, when it wasn't right.

As to the rest, eh, people defend what they believe in. I've seen the same kinds of things said about dating. It "works" even if individual relationships don't. From her perspective, it did "work" the way it was supposed to. The intent was marriage, the "discerning process" made it clear that wasn't the right route, so the courtship ended. The goal of courtship is more directed at marriage, but there is no rule (that I know of) that once started, courtship *must* result in marriage.

DH and I didn't date or court, at least, not according to various definitions of either. Sometimes I think it is just semantics. I'm not sure what we did, but it did get us married. :D

[maybeizfundie]

So many times people think that when they get a boyfriend/girlfriend or get married that is when true happiness BEGINS.

That is so wrong.

Our happiness, contentment and satisfaction in life CAN NOT be dependent on a PERSON or on CIRCUMSTANCES.

I thought this was interesting. Not something one might expect from a super conservative gal, but it is totally consistent with Christian beliefs.

[fundiefan]

There is no difference. Others are involved and have ultimate motives - tangible aspects of life. Courtship with the goal and intent to marry. Date knowing that what happens, happens.

I would think a broken courtship is more painful and life altering than an end to dating. Most who date know they are taking chances, being happy for now, whatever. Courtship has an ultimate, end goal.

The loss or failure of that end goal has to be way more painful. Not only because you haven't reached your goal, but because there are others involved. Your parents, families, etc.

When people date and 'give away' their heart, they usually know they are taking a chance. When you court, with parental input and ultimate goals in mind, holy hell...that has to suck!

The chick from simplysanctified - she has what, three 'ended' courtships? Just imagine that pain and hell. Those who 'date' and 'give' their heart know they are taking chances. Those who 'court' - with all the rules behind it - lose everything if the courtship doesn't result in marriage. Simplysanctified chick is very obviously hurt and confused and disappointed...no less hurt than I was, or anyone else is, when a relationship ends. More pain though, since there was so much more riding on it.

You are right. No matter the specifics or dynamics, even these chaperoned, rule-following girls have emotions. And because they are raised to believe that courtship = marriage, if things change, they are no less hurt. More hurt, I dare say, because their life plan has changed.

But, ultimately, it is a huge red flag on the patriarchy system. Remove all emotions, questions, doubt, preferences, feelings and follow the rules. The rules made by human's, not by any god or bible or other holy book.

I have no doubt this girl IS wallowing - or at least feeling -she's hurt, confused, doubts herself, wonders 'why' and how and what she could have done differently. There is just WAY more riding on that than your average person and she is carrying that weight. That pain. That doubt and fear. That disappointment and hurt. Only, she can't turn to anyone to talk about it or learn from it.

[Kitten]

I think that the Lord wanted to know if I really believed what I had been teaching my girls in my Friday night Bible studies.

I had to CHOOSE.

I CHOSE Jesus.

I'd be curious to learn exactly what this means. All I could get from her dialogue was the sense that she is scared to death of her feelings for another human being - that somehow, loving a PERSON is the wrong thing to do, because you're supposed to love God/Jesus. I only hope she comes to realize that our love for God/life/whatever you want to call it is manifested in our love for others, including romantic love. It doesn't replace or detract from our spirituality to love another person emotionally, passionately and sexually.

Maybe she's being truthful when she says he doesn't "complete" her, but the rest of it is a little too much "methinks thou doth protest too much".

In any event, she says she's "healing," which sounds an awful lot like there's a piece of her heart missing. I wish her the best...

[Kitten]

Ah, didn't even look at the date of that post. She's now married and expecting. Looks like she got pregnant within a month of the marriage. Here's a weird excerpt from her last post about the pregnancy:

Please pray that Jesus doesn't take me to heaven early and that both Mama and I are healthy and everything goes smoothly.

WTF? This girl really has a negative thought process...

[deelaem]

I hope those in the know will school me on this "giving away pieces of your heart" stuff. For me,the phrase is meaningless. Is it code for letting your naughty bits be touched? Or do they assume that a heart has a finite amount of love to give? Following that logic, they should be loving each successive child less and less. It just makes no sense to me.

[Kathryn31]

They have only been married for 32 days and they are announcing the pregnancy? Wow. They must have registered for pregnancy tests.

[darkplumaged]

I hope those in the know will school me on this "giving away pieces of your heart" stuff. For me,the phrase is meaningless. Is it code for letting your naughty bits be touched? Or do they assume that a heart has a finite amount of love to give? Following that logic, they should be loving each successive child less and less. It just makes no sense to me.

Giving away pieces of your heart = getting emotionally involved, in a romantic sense, with anyone other than your future spouse. Of course, this concept raises more questions than it answers:

--Why does this only happen if a dating relationship ends and not if a courtship ends?

--Why does it only apply to romantic feelings? What if my close friendship with another woman ends... won't I have given away a piece of my heart to her?

--Why would anyone with a lick of sense think that if Jane dated Joe when she was 16, she'd probably still be thinking about him years later, after she was married, in some kind of wistful, "if only" kind of way?

[duplessis3]

The courtship thing is icky because everyone involved (which seems to include grandma and the dog) have prayed about it, and Jesus gave the a-ok. So when it ends...

Plus with the emphasis on quick marriages, you can't hang out with a guy for a year and then decide. Or even have a male friend that turns into "the one."

[MamaJunebug]

Oh, I thought sure you were talking about the Loomii!

This is from "part 1" of their courtship story. Part 2 has yet to appear, doubt it ever will.

To set the stage, the two families have known each other a little over two years and the Servens have announced their plans to move from California to Missouri.

"A couple of months later, after much prayer, counsel, and consideration, Steven requested of Rebecca’s father if Steven could court her.

This, also in God’s providence, was not granted. However, it was hoped that the friendship between our families would continue, and the invitation to visit as convenient was graciously extended.

( As an aside, how do you define a successful courtship? To answer this, one must first define what the goals are. If the goal is “Get married!!!â€, then this attempted “courtship†of Rebecca was a failure. However, our goal should be (1) glorify God and (2) determine whether He is calling to marriage. Therefore, this brief (2005) attempted courtship was immediately a success. It was not the right time… yet. )"

[politely] Uhm-hum. MJB comments quietly, Welcome to Westworld, where nothing can go wrong! go wrong! go wrong! [/politely]

[frankly] Fathers decide. Fathers are pretty much infallible, knowing God's perfect timing and implementing it. I don't know the sitch with the blogger the OP quoted, but it certainly sounds as if her heart was broken, possibly as was her court-er's. But nothing has gone wrong, you see, because it's either father or courtship writing the story, so it's all God's perfect timing.

Only...not.

[moreorlessnu]

Giving away pieces of your heart = getting emotionally involved, in a romantic sense, with anyone other than your future spouse. Of course, this concept raises more questions than it answers:

It seems virtually impossible not to get emotionally involved during this time unless there is absolutely no chemistry between the two. They should be able to discern that problem pretty quickly in the process. With all the pressure on these girls to become a 'help meet', it seems impossible that they would be able to approach this process from a totally logical point of view. In most cases, this is their first foray into romantic situations.

[bbfreethinker]

Me thinks she doth protest too much.

It was a SUCCESS, damn it!

[Lewis]

"The courtship thing is icky because everyone involved (which seems to include grandma and the dog) have prayed about it, and Jesus gave the a-ok."

And they all feel entitled to have a say. Trust me on that. But...they wouldn't know Jesus if he cut a hole in the ceiling, repelled down a rope, and hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em. All of the "Jesus" and "God's providence" stuff with these people is Christianese BS and windowdressing to cover up for fathers micromanaging the lives of their children, no matter the age.

"No courtship for you! Come back one year!" ~Jesus

[Lewis]

And trust me when I say that this devastated the girl. I've seen all this crap before. I feel sorry for her - denying her feelings.

I have serious doubt as to the emotional health of any relationship/marriage she's in now.

[denimjumper]

There is no such thing as a failed courtship if you are Christopher Maxwell. Your dad just deletes every blog post and photo mentioning it as if it never existed in the first place.

[clibbyjo]

My niece has had 2 failed courtships at the ripe age of 22. She broke them both off.Although both were years long.(the first about 3 years, the second almost 2) I am actually glad, give her a few more years before she starts cranking out babies.

[MamaJunebug]

"The courtship thing is icky because everyone involved (which seems to include grandma and the dog) have prayed about it, and Jesus gave the a-ok."

And they all feel entitled to have a say. Trust me on that. But...they wouldn't know Jesus if he cut a hole in the ceiling, repelled down a rope, and hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em. All of the "Jesus" and "God's providence" stuff with these people is Christianese BS and windowdressing to cover up for fathers micromanaging the lives of their children, no matter the age.

"No courtship for you! Come back one year!" ~Jesus

"cut a hole in the ceiling, rapelled down a rope" cracked me up! :D

but "hit 'em where the Good Lord split 'em"???? I am a midwesterner and a stranger in the land of good old-fashioned Southernesses. What does that phrase refer to? :?:

Thank you in advnace and a million thanks for your Commandments Of Men blog. I set aside what I'm doing when I see a new message in the e-mail.

[moreorlessnu]

I think that means your rear end. That's where your body splits into 2 legs.

[MamaJunebug]

I think that means your rear end. That's where your body splits into 2 legs.

:D Well, sure! :lol: I actually thought of that about three minutes after I posted. The butt cleavage!!!

Thanks, moreorlessnu. Just goes to show, even old dogs haven't necessarily heard 'em all. ;)

[moreorlessnu]

I have this mental image of you slapping your forehead, murmuring "butt cleavage", your family looking up at you silently, and then going back about their business as if nothing were amiss....

[Letgo]

Do you people not read Steve's definitive opinion on courtship? Emotional attachment only comes AFTER THE WEDDING!!! Before marriage, they make sure that both sets of parents (and maybe even the couple :D ) have the same beliefs and expectations of marriage, that both parties involved are totally pure, and that it is in compliance with the will of the Lord. There must be no touching and a chaperone at all times. And death must be the focus of the wedding ceremony.

[moreorlessnu]

And trust me when I say that this devastated the girl. I've seen all this crap before. I feel sorry for her - denying her feelings.

I have serious doubt as to the emotional health of any relationship/marriage she's in now.

I'm guessing that other girls in the fold have also seen this devastation, and this puts more pressure on them to make sure their courtship 'succeeds' even if that means the two people involved are not a good match.

[SunnyAndrsn]

And trust me when I say that this devastated the girl. I've seen all this crap before. I feel sorry for her - denying her feelings.

I have serious doubt as to the emotional health of any relationship/marriage she's in now.

Married with a baby on the way. She met her husband several weeks after the first courtship ended.

I'm another reader who enjoys your blog, Lewis.

[demgirl]

I have sympathy for this girl because this mindset was instilled in her and it must be devastating to live your life this way. I'd have more sympathy if she didn't put it on the damn internet, where it will live FOREVER, that she'd prefer a boy. That would be just super to be her kid if it's a girl -- checking out the wayback machine, seeing your mom's blog and realizing you were born with the non-preferred genetalia.