Preparing children to deal with differing beliefs

[godlytomatosoup]

smockityfrocks.com/2011/12/preparing-children-to-deal-with-differing-beliefs.html

The key to disagreeing amiably is the mature and considerate part. If one party in the disagreement is lacking either of those characteristics, then all bets are off, and as for me, I like to avoid conflict especially at festive holiday gatherings.

It might help if you didn't refer to everyone who believes something different from you and your family as 'unbelievers'. Just a thought.

[shrewlu]

I did agree with the author of that post when it came to being mature and considerate during disagreements. But, to automatically label someone as an "unbeliever" just because they aren't Christian is being inconsiderate, right off the bat. And there is no way you can have a friendly, non-confrontational discourse about differing viewpoints without being somewhat considerate, i.e. it is perfectly fine to disagree but there is no need to be rude about it, imo.

It's late, I'm tired and I can't write coherently at this point.

[godlytomatosoup]

heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2011/12/four-moms-our-children-and-unbelievers.html

From the same Four Moms topic, different blogger:

you prepare your children for problematic issues you know are going to come up: [...] You may not be rude to Grandpa, but if he tells you to do something, no matter what it is, you say , "Yes, sir, I need to ask my Mommy first," and then come get me.

That gives me chills. She may not mean what I think she means (and I definitely think this was one of her non-hypothetical examples, although I have no evidence for thinking that) but it seems clear to me that she is anticipating, and telling her readers to anticipate, a situation in which Grandpa is alone with the children and telling them to do something harmful.

The DHM is one of my favourite fundie bloggers, one of the ones I think I'd even like if we met in real life if we could just avoid ever discussing politics, but sometimes she worries me.

[Sola]

Hmmm, this one from life in a shoe:

http://inashoe.com/2011/12/4-moms-prepa ... ng-family/

Honestly, my lack of preparation comes in part from my lack of experience with this particular issue. It’s very nearly a non-issue in our family for at least 2 reasons:

1. The unbelievers in our extended family are enormously outnumbered by the believers, and even the unbelievers were raised as believers. They are the ones making waves in this pond, not us.

2. The holidays that come to mind – the ones that have the potential to be problematic – are Christian holidays in nature even though unbelievers often choose to celebrate them with us. Again, we have the high ground here. We are not on the defensive.

Doesn't sound like you're not on the defensive.

[Esther]

Dude. If you refer to anyone who is not Christian as an 'unbeliever', you are not being tolerant and you are not being a great example to your kids. Not only is everyone who is not Christian necessarily nonreligious, 'unbeliever' also makes you sound like you fell out of the year 1400.

Also 'And let the person be persuaded by your warmth.' ... What if I don't wanna be persuaded?

[Guest Anonymous]

If someone started spanking their kids in front of me, while trying to radiate "warmth", I would absolutely freak out.

[browngrl]

If any of these families were MY family - I would be careful to book a vacation far away from all of them on every major holiday and I would probably be sick/working/washing my hair on any other occasion that might call for "fellowshipping" with that lot.

[Rosa]

Don't you think they mean "Christians who aren't our kind of Christian", not actual nonChristians?

Because I know a LOT of atheists and pagans who have "Christmas with the family" anyway, but none of my fundy-raised friends do it, because it's just not possible. You can do the tree and the gifts and the eggnog with people without it being a religious issue, but if your family is all baby Jesus cookies and talking about how trees are pagan and carolers are going to hell, there's no middle ground to meet on.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hmmm, this one from life in a shoe:

http://inashoe.com/2011/12/4-moms-prepa ... ng-family/

Doesn't sound like you're not on the defensive.

As to the quote: "They are the ones making waves in this pond, not us."....riiiiiight...WHO'S making a big stink about "unbelievers" and the "problems" they cause...like a "war against Christmas"???!!!

[Rosa]

Also, whoah, In a Shoe used to buy a gift for each kid from each kid - 42 presents for 8 people. Really?

Though what's worse is, now the kids all have to chip in for one gift for each kid. So her kids are trying to resell things (at insane markups - my kid has one of those helicopers and they're around $20 depending on the size/sale) so they have some money to chip in. So when they were little and she did all the shopping, they got presents for their siblings, but now that they're older and maybe have access to some money, Mommy's in charge of presents.

[clibbyjo]

So, if Grandpa asks you to pick up something he dropped, you have to go ask your mom first? That is insane.

I spend every x-mas eve. with my fundie relatives and they used to try to convert the children every year and tell them "The Christmas Story" and the kids would try to get the other kids alone to do this. I told my sister no more or we were done and it stopped,so now they just let the kids play like normal kids and leave us alone.

[Rosa]

If I didn't know she was a fundie, I would actually be totally behind Common Rooms post. I just suspect she doesn't mean what it sounds like she means. She doesn't sound any more controlling than a lot of secular parents I know who control every bite their kid eats and don't let them play video games or have toy guns.

And the grandpa thing is probably pretty benign, since the range of things they consider bad for kids is so wide. My parents had a similar rule for dealing with their families.

For example: My grandpa was a drunk. He would TOTALLY offer us sips of beer, and also if my mom hadn't squashed him good (we were the youngest grandkids; the older ones didn't visit because of his drinking, but my mom put rules on him and let us visit if he was on good behavior) he would have had us fetching his hidden flask or hanging out with him in the basement while he had his "secret" drinks - he used to get me an ice cream and himself an "orange juice" out of the freezer down there pretty often.

So we totally got the "if Grandpa asks you to go for a drive with him, come ask me first" because she had to make sure he wasn't driving drunk with us.

It's just that Common Room is probably talking about stuff like watching Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer or having an extra cookie or something.

[Rosa]

...or having affection for your life partner (this is from the comments on Raising Olives post.)

"I have a question. On one side of our family we are the only ones with children. There are two adult family members who are homosexual. They bring their “partners†to family gatherings and there isn’t outright kissing so much as holding hands, rubbing arms, etc. Basically the same public displays of a man and wife. My husband and I moved away to separate ourselves from many family members for this and similar reasons. So any holiday get together are “back homeâ€.If any comment is said that we don’t wish our children to see and we ourselves are uncomfortable,these particular members are quick to snap back with comments of us being judgmental. They are members of a Lutheran church that believes homosexuality is acceptable. This is all so sad. Any ideas on how to see certain loved ones without letting others impact negatively?"

[Doomed Harlottt]

Huh. It would never have occurred to me to be bothered by the term "unbeliever." As an atheist, I do not believe in God or Christian doctrine. So it is quite accurate to say vis-a-vis Christianity that I am an "unbeliever." In other words, the term strikes as merely descriptive, not pejorative.

Of course, if they are referring to other Christians or theists of other religions as "unbelievers," then that's a different story. I haven't read the link.

[Rosa]

sorry to multipost, but the gems are really in the comments. This is from "Headmistress, zookeeper" at The Common Room's post:

"Ouch, Ja, you remind me that many years ago a five year old of ours used to draw little pamphlets with Bible verses copied on them and slip them under my unbelieving brother's door with little hearts and flowers and notes about hwo much she loved him (he was often not home until she was in bed, hence the notes beneath the door). We didn't feel comfortable about it at all, and we wished she wouldn't do it, but, OTOH, we didn't feel like we could make her quit, either- it was an awkward dilemma all around and we could never be sure if we were right for wishing she wouldn't or if we were just abject cowards- my dad did ask her to stop, but she felt very strongly that this what she should do."

Oh yeah, these people TOTALLY didn't model this behavior for their 5 year old and are the kind of permissive parents with no control over their children's behavior, right? They totally couldn't say to her "we know you feel strongly about this, but it's not polite." Right? I mean, I bet they had the same helpless feeling when she had her hands down her pants at dinner - she feels very strongly about physical pleasure so what are they to do?

[kunoichi66]

...or having affection for your life partner (this is from the comments on Raising Olives post.)

"I have a question. On one side of our family we are the only ones with children. There are two adult family members who are homosexual. They bring their “partners†to family gatherings and there isn’t outright kissing so much as holding hands, rubbing arms, etc. Basically the same public displays of a man and wife. My husband and I moved away to separate ourselves from many family members for this and similar reasons. So any holiday get together are “back homeâ€.If any comment is said that we don’t wish our children to see and we ourselves are uncomfortable,these particular members are quick to snap back with comments of us being judgmental. They are members of a Lutheran church that believes homosexuality is acceptable. This is all so sad. Any ideas on how to see certain loved ones without letting others impact negatively?"

I have an idea - STOP BEING JUDGEMENTAL!

And why the heck is the word partner in scare quotes?

Rgh.

Though, trying to find a funny side to this, because I am raging: this reads like 'dear agony aunt, I hold beliefs which are horrible and judgemental. I would like to experience no consequences for this behaviour. How can this be arranged?'

[Nothing2CHere]

you prepare your children for problematic issues you know are going to come up: [...] You may not be rude to Grandpa, but if he tells you to do something, no matter what it is, you say , "Yes, sir, I need to ask my Mommy first," and then come get me.

Is she afraid their Grandpa is like my Grandpa was, constantly sending his grandkids to grab him a beer from the fridge?

Hey, we were happy to do it - we were always rewarded with a sip :lol:

[slickcat79]

Hmmm, this one from life in a shoe:

http://inashoe.com/2011/12/4-moms-prepa ... ng-family/

Doesn't sound like you're not on the defensive.

Yeah, that. I read that yesterday while perusing LiaS. I'm sure I would qualify as the biggest "unbeliever" in my mother's family, yet I manage to get through our christmas eve get-together without "making waves". It just irks me how she refers to her position as if she automatically holds some moral high ground by virtue of believing in christianity. I imagine the unbelievers would prefer their kids not pick up any ideas about being QF or living like Kim and her family do. They could just try to enjoy the time together with the whole family instead of going in anticipating the worst.

[Witsec1]

sorry to multipost, but the gems are really in the comments. This is from "Headmistress, zookeeper" at The Common Room's post:

"Ouch, Ja, you remind me that many years ago a five year old of ours used to draw little pamphlets with Bible verses copied on them and slip them under my unbelieving brother's door with little hearts and flowers and notes about hwo much she loved him (he was often not home until she was in bed, hence the notes beneath the door). We didn't feel comfortable about it at all, and we wished she wouldn't do it, but, OTOH, we didn't feel like we could make her quit, either- it was an awkward dilemma all around and we could never be sure if we were right for wishing she wouldn't or if we were just abject cowards- my dad did ask her to stop, but she felt very strongly that this what she should do."

Oh yeah, these people TOTALLY didn't model this behavior for their 5 year old and are the kind of permissive parents with no control over their children's behavior, right? They totally couldn't say to her "we know you feel strongly about this, but it's not polite." Right? I mean, I bet they had the same helpless feeling when she had her hands down her pants at dinner - she feels very strongly about physical pleasure so what are they to do?

Headmistress is Heartkeeper Common Room. I don't get the love for her. She cares for her children/grandchildren quite well I guess, but so do many mammals.

[Ralar]

When my daughter was younger, she attended preschool at my workplace. One day as we were walking into the (federal) building, a man approached us and in a very friendly manner said good morning. Then he asked my daughter what Santa brought her for Christmas. My daughter responded, "Santa didn't come to my house." If looks could kill, I'd be dead. Before Mr. Judgmental could say anything, my daughter added, "We don't celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Hanukkah!" The guy nodded awkwardly and went his way.

[Rosa]

really, Flora, she posts on her own blog with another user name? ARGHH.

[AnnoDomini]

Huh. It would never have occurred to me to be bothered by the term "unbeliever." As an atheist, I do not believe in God or Christian doctrine. So it is quite accurate to say vis-a-vis Christianity that I am an "unbeliever." In other words, the term strikes as merely descriptive, not pejorative.

Of course, if they are referring to other Christians or theists of other religions as "unbelievers," then that's a different story. I haven't read the link.

This. I was raised with the term 'unbeliever' used to refer to people who were not Christian--it means those who don't believe in Jesus Christ the Saviour, thus 'unbelievers'.

[godlytomatosoup]

really, Flora, she posts on her own blog with another user name? ARGHH.

The blog name is Heartkeeper Common Room. She's the Deputy Headmistress, her husband is the Headmaster, and all her children have nicknames too (her eldest is the Head Girl) and sometimes post. I have no idea why she chose the theme of a school for her family, but that's what she did.

[Rosa]

Anno Domini, I have run into SO MANY Evangelicals who don't consider other kinds of Christian to be Christians, it's not even funny. The Baptists in my hometown were so aggressive with this, if you asked a Catholic kid if they were Christian they'd answer "No, we're Catholic."

[Esther]

Anno Domini, I have run into SO MANY Evangelicals who don't consider other kinds of Christian to be Christians, it's not even funny. The Baptists in my hometown were so aggressive with this, if you asked a Catholic kid if they were Christian they'd answer "No, we're Catholic."

I grew up in Belgium, and that mentality is so deeply weird to me, as it is to many Europeans, I think. How can you not consider Catholics Christians? I mean, they believe in Jesus and all that? It's strange. I actually mentioned that belief to my mother earlier today and she'd never heard about it before.