Jump to content
IGNORED

King James only - PP debut sermon


godlytomatosoup

Recommended Posts

 

 

I just watched the PP's first sermon (gotta love his hair! :shock::D ) and I have a question. How do KJV-only people deal with the existance of Bibles in other languages, some of which predate English? I'm sure they have an answer, I just haven't encountered it yet.

 

ZZ speaks English as a third language. Does the PP believe that his wife only came in contact with real Scripture when she learned English and was able to encounter the majesty of the KJV? None of the Hungarian or German Bible study she did before that counted? And what about Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Aramaic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just watched the PP's first sermon (gotta love his hair! :shock: :D ) and I have a question. How do KJV-only people deal with the existance of Bibles in other languages, some of which predate English? I'm sure they have an answer, I just haven't encountered it yet.

ZZ speaks English as a third language. Does the PP believe that his wife only came in contact with real Scripture when she learned English and was able to encounter the majesty of the KJV? None of the Hungarian or German Bible study she did before that counted? And what about Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Aramaic?

Oh, stop with the reason and logic already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never understood why they wouldn't just study the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek. Yes, it takes effort to learn another language, but the KJV isn't written in modern English and practically needs a translation already. Do they have any concept of just how much is lost in translation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a cut-and-paste on this subject from church I know (I must note that this particular church also has a practice of distributing Bibles in languages other than English to various places):

We believe God has preserved His Word in New Testament form in the manuscript text known as the Textus Receptus. We further believe God has preserved His Word in Old Testament form in the manuscript text known as the Masoretic Text. Finally, we believe we have His preserved Word in the English language in the Bible known as the King James Version or Authorized Version. The King James Version is our sole authority for all purposes of reading and studying in English.

Some KJ-only people - like S. Anderson - may be more extreme. Not sure that Anderson is bound by any semblance of actual historical truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Apple1. So, is there one single perfect Bible for every other language out there, or are they just making do?

I think these people are saying that Bibles in other languages are "most preferred" if they have been translated using the mentioned sources, with the result being the "preferred" Bible in whatever language. I don't see this as saying that the Bibles in any of the various languages are perfect translations.

As I said before, there are some who are more extreme than those who wrote this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always thought it was downright mean and nasty of god to wait until 1611 to give English speakers & readers his perfect word. For how many centuries prior had he left Christians fumbling with imperfect bibles? Christianity was established as a religion without a perfect bible and that tells me that the 1611 KJV was not necessary. But, I guess god just wanted to give his people one more thing to fight about and put one more thing in the middle of his followers so they would never truly be 'of one' or whatever.

I heard the argument once that god waited for the reformation to give the perfect bible because he wanted his perfect word to go to perfect believers, not the fooled/stupid/whatever Catholics. So, instead of giving the world his perfect word from the start, he waiting until Europe was almost literally split in half over religion -over Christianity - and then gave his perfect word. When I asked why he waited and why so many had to die and hide and convert and leave homes in order to reach the point of the split, I get told that it's man's doing not god's and everything he does is in his perfect timing and blah, blah, blah. Basically, no answer, as is usual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never understood why they wouldn't just study the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek. Yes, it takes effort to learn another language, but the KJV isn't written in modern English and practically needs a translation already. Do they have any concept of just how much is lost in translation?

My father took Greek in college just so he could study the Bible (KJV of course) and in his more in-depth complicated studies I had some fleeting thoughts that to properly interpret deep Biblical messages one would have to know Greek! Made me feel very small and hopeless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always thought it was downright mean and nasty of god to wait until 1611 to give English speakers & readers his perfect word. For how many centuries prior had he left Christians fumbling with imperfect bibles? Christianity was established as a religion without a perfect bible and that tells me that the 1611 KJV was not necessary. But, I guess god just wanted to give his people one more thing to fight about and put one more thing in the middle of his followers so they would never truly be 'of one' or whatever.

I heard the argument once that god waited for the reformation to give the perfect bible because he wanted his perfect word to go to perfect believers, not the fooled/stupid/whatever Catholics. So, instead of giving the world his perfect word from the start, he waiting until Europe was almost literally split in half over religion -over Christianity - and then gave his perfect word. When I asked why he waited and why so many had to die and hide and convert and leave homes in order to reach the point of the split, I get told that it's man's doing not god's and everything he does is in his perfect timing and blah, blah, blah. Basically, no answer, as is usual.

This is so.................so.............................perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My father took Greek in college just so he could study the Bible (KJV of course) and in his more in-depth complicated studies I had some fleeting thoughts that to properly interpret deep Biblical messages one would have to know Greek! Made me feel very small and hopeless.

Does it ever make you wonder why this utterly logical, reasonable God of creation, where everything has order and perfection.......this God who gave us His supposed Word.......chose to do so in such a mysterious manner?

If His Word is His way of communicating to us, why is it seemingly so contradictory--so mysterious--so difficult to decipher? Why make communication such a puzzle?

How is someone with no education to read "God's Word" and have any understanding at all? Would this really be God's intent?

Rather than clarifying, many times, it seems to confuse, and it certainly has been the source of countless false and harmful religions based upon possible misunderstandings of words contained therein. (The PP church is a very good example, and there are thousands and thousands more.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, no I've never wondered that. My parents always said that any understanding we get from the Bible is due to God giving it to us, not our own ability to understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KJV only is one of my pet peeves. Always wondered the same things that have been posted here. Even if they say it's just the best *english* version and allow for God's word in other languages, it's still problematic.

Just the language alone is an issue. I grew up in a highly literate family with a dad who loves all things related to history and language, and while it's hard to slog through KJV English, I can do it. But it's a pain, and many people just don't have that kind of background (or dad) to refer to. And dh's first language is not English, so he has pointed out to me several things that have changed their meaning since 1611 so that on reading them you get a completely different feel than intended, unless you already know that's "old English" and can work out what it probably meant back then.

Interestingly, dh actually has a Bible that is similar in concept to our KJV, from his own country. It's the "old" language, used now mostly by priests in their Orthodox church. And there are similar issues with the differences between that version of the language and what is commonly used now.

KJV-only fails to recognize that language changes and meaning is lost if the language we get our information from doesn't change along with it. KJV is no longer the "plain meaning" of translations from the original languages, assuming it ever was, which I'm not convinced about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, no I've never wondered that. My parents always said that any understanding we get from the Bible is due to God giving it to us, not our own ability to understand.

Yes, that's often an answer to what we do not understand regarding God, the Bible, etc. Accept by faith; God will give you understanding, and so forth.

I get that.

I'm actually talking about God's motivation. Is His word given to us as a way to communicate with us and bring us to His understanding? If so, why did He make it so mysterious? (I know I'm repeating myself.)

If He wants us to understand, and if He gave us his written word, why then, do we need further assistance from Him to understand it? How does he give us the ability to understand? How do we know our understanding comes from God? How do we know it's not just what we want it to be?

Considering all the many, countless religions for thousands of years--all based upon supposed God-given understanding of Scripture--I think these are legitimate questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're going to insist upon using only one translation of the Bible, why in seven hells would you insist upon the one that is largely agreed to be the least accurate? Most scholars admit that James VI was rather particular in how things were translated, and I rather suspect that it was his firm belief in and fear of witches that led to the famous 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'.

The KJV's always been my favourite translation, because it sounds nice, but I would never read it without study notes that explain how the words have changed meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, no I've never wondered that. My parents always said that any understanding we get from the Bible is due to God giving it to us, not our own ability to understand.

Honey, I just want to give you a hug. What were your parents thinking ? !?!? Rhetorical question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it ever make you wonder why this utterly logical, reasonable God of creation, where everything has order and perfection.......this God who gave us His supposed Word.......chose to do so in such a mysterious manner?

If His Word is His way of communicating to us, why is it seemingly so contradictory--so mysterious--so difficult to decipher? Why make communication such a puzzle?

How is someone with no education to read "God's Word" and have any understanding at all? Would this really be God's intent?

Rather than clarifying, many times, it seems to confuse, and it certainly has been the source of countless false and harmful religions based upon possible misunderstandings of words contained therein. (The PP church is a very good example, and there are thousands and thousands more.)

Good question. Jews answer this by saying that we're suppose to get educated and really study and wrestle with the meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These people should read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman. It would make their eyes bug out.

He's clearly a heathen who doesn't know anything. Have you read the book though? I read one of his, "Forged" I think it was, and really enjoyed it and found it interesting. This is one of his other ones that I most want to read, but I have to wait until summer as I by brain cannot handle reading non-fiction during the school year! Have you read any of his other books? Any recommendations?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In another thread here, one of us quoted Dougie bloviating against all those "liberal myths" about Thanksgiving, and assures us about the True Christianity of the Pilgrims. Then why does he hew to the Bible as translated by the king these folks were fleeing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm still not seeing any acknowledgement from this POV that things get lost in translation. A perfect translation, which retains all of the nuance of the original, just isn't possible.

I looked up the KJV online, and can point out some basic examples just from Genesis, Chapter 2:

1. In English, you don't really appreciate that G-d's name changes from just Elohim in Chap. 1, to YHWH Elohim in Chap. 2.

2. In English, you read about a man being formed from the dust of the ground. In Hebrew, you read that the "adam" is formed from the "adama", and the connection between the two words in clear. You also see that the word "adam" is NOT the same word as "man", which is "ish". Later in the chapter, man is also used to translate ish.

3. The English word help meet doesn't fully convey that the Hebrew term is "help opposite".

Later in Genesis, none of the naming makes sense in English. Why, for example, would you name someone Isaac because their mother laughed? If you know that the Hebrew Yitzhak actually means "he will laugh", it makes more sense.

There are also rhyming phrases in Hebrew that don't exist in English. "Tohu u'vovu" (without form and void) and "pru urvu" (be fruitful and multiply) are 2 examples just from Genesis 1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think these people are saying that Bibles in other languages are "most preferred" if they have been translated using the mentioned sources, with the result being the "preferred" Bible in whatever language. I don't see this as saying that the Bibles in any of the various languages are perfect translations.

As I said before, there are some who are more extreme than those who wrote this.

I should clarify that I was just answering the opening post, not representing my personal belief.

I am not KJVO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer the NKJV for my everyday reading. I do like the KJV for Psalms and Proverbs, to me they just sound better and more poetic in that old style.

My wife reads NASB, and my 8 year old daughter has the NIV. I'm certainly not going to give a KJV, NKJV, or NASB to my daughter to read. I want her to read the Bible, not dread it because it's "too hard."

For most Christians I know, they use the version that their pastor preaches from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.