NFP And Temptation-Are Fundies Just Horndogs?

[debrand]

I was reading Jess from Making Home's discussion on NFP. On other blogs, I've read that some fundies won't use NFP because they feel it takes control from god. Jess made a unique argument. Using 1 Corinthains 7:3-5, she says that abstaining from sex for 10 days out of the month would provide too much temptation

I can't imagine intentionally abstaining from intimacy for 1/3rd of my married life... and frankly, it seems like it would do precisely what 1 Cor. 7:5 warns about[b] having temptation creep into the marriage relationship from the outside. To me, that kind of planned time apart on a regular basis doesn't sound like the small amount of time spent apart in devotion "to prayer" (not for birth control) that may occasionally be used ("perhaps") "for a limited time."

Really? I have a high libido and I think that not having sex when I wanted it would make me miserable but I wouldn't be tempted to do anything. My husband is retired military and we have spent time apart. I didn't run out and have an affair. Also, I trust that my husband has self control also. After reading her article, I actually feel pretty damned lucky that I don't have a fundie husband who I have to worry will be tempted(whatever she means by that) if we go 10 days without sex.

She seems to be distorting the meaning of the verse quite a bit. Some of the comment that follow her article are interesting.

A commenter Shamgar asks her:

Recently, your husband was gone for over 2 weeks to another country. Did he sin by being unavailable to you?

She responds with:

It's funny, Shamgar- you chose to agree with the only commenter I've yet had who came back to disagree with her own comment. ;)

I don't think I'm taking this verse out of context at all. All the examples you gave are not regular, intentional times of abstaining for more than a limited time.

Work? Doesn't limit you from being regular about it. Having a baby? At most, happens once a year. Husband going on a two week trip to another country? Has only happened once in 7 years of marriage. And yes, it was a hard time, and we both had to be active in fending off temptation.

All that to say, I don't think I'm taking the verse out of context at all. He's talking about not withholding. Yeah, it can apply one way, but it's also talking about a general selfishness regarding the act of intimacy (which SOME people, Catholics and Protestants -until this last century- not withstanding, would equate with birth control/NFP type interactions).

I see your point- I just don't think it's a good evaluation of where I'm coming from on this particular issue.

~Jess

I have no idea what definition that Jess uses for temptation but I thought that this would be an interesting thing to discuss. Are fundies unable to control their sexual desire? LOL Those damned horny fundies. I also thought she got a bit snippy with Shamgar. Oh and Anna gives her opinion on the issue.

makinghome.blogspot.com/search?q=nfp

[duplessis3]

She may be referring to masturbation, and fantasy too.

[debrand]

She may be referring to masturbation, and fantasy too.

I wondered about that. But people masturbate and have fantasies regardless of the frequency they have sex. Her main audience are women. So, she is telling women, "Ignore the needs of your family, your health and your finanical needs to protect your husband from something that you have no control over anyway." It is such a depressing no win situation for the woman. It is cruel to put this type of weight on the wife's shoulders.

My husband and I have sex more because I fantasize about imaginary fantasy characters(Okay, I'm weird) I'm sure that he has fantasies about other women. As long as he doesn't act on those fantasies, I don't know why I'd be upset or feel that I need to help him not have them.

[debrand]

I am so sorry, you all. I didn' t put up the link

makinghome.blogspot.com/search?q=nfp

[Guest Anonymous]

I will never ever ever get why so many religions and religious people are anti-masturbation. It's fun, it's free, it's safe, it's not cheating on your partner and it's not going to get anyone pregnant.

People who think that masturbation is a sin are modern day Puritans - joyless, fun-sucking, miserable bastards.

In the words of H.L. Mencken "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." It fits Steve Maxwell, Chris Jeub, and all of their ilk down to a T.

[Marian the Librarian]

I will never ever ever get why so many religions and religious people are anti-masturbation. It's fun, it's free, it's safe, it's not cheating on your partner and it's not going to get anyone pregnant.

People who think that masturbation is a sin are modern day Puritans - joyless, fun-sucking, miserable bastards.

In the words of H.L. Mencken "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." It fits Steve Maxwell, Chris Jeub, and all of their ilk down to a T.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[contrary]

i think she MUST be talking about masturbation or fantasizing. There's no way they had to "fend off temptation" (in the way WE are thinking of temptation) during a two week hiatus.

[liltwinstar]

I see a lot of fundie women being *terrified* that their spouses will cheat on them...and I don't understand that. Don't they trust their husbands??? Seems to me that when cheating does occur, it's painful in part *because* of that loss of trust. But why treat a man as a cheater when he has never given you a reason to??

Of course, when you lump all kinds of ridiculous things under "cheating" like occasional porn use, a passing thought that someone other than your spouse is hot, etc, I guess it would be easy to be paranoid.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I will never ever ever get why so many religions and religious people are anti-masturbation. It's fun, it's free, it's safe, it's not cheating on your partner and it's not going to get anyone pregnant.

People who think that masturbation is a sin are modern day Puritans - joyless, fun-sucking, miserable bastards.

In the words of H.L. Mencken "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." It fits Steve Maxwell, Chris Jeub, and all of their ilk down to a T.

I'm fairly certain that she must be defining temptation as impure thoughts and/or masturbation.

I tend to agree with Lissar. Strictly speaking, Orthodox Judaism has issues with "spilling seed" (story of Onan from Genesis), so male masturbation is out. Some groups sort of ignore the prohibition and assume that it's personal and most will end up doing it anyway, some make a big deal about it.

Objectively speaking, I can't see much good from the prohibition (other than the person feeling that they are obeying a commandment), but I have some real concerns about the negative effects.

Physically, I have an Orthodox friend whose husband actually developed a medical condition after she gave birth, since he had no way to relieve himself. Strange but true.

I also find that making THIS the focus means that all this energy gets directed at making sure that the guys never get aroused or sexually frustrated. In turn, that fuels the hyper-modesty trend. All modesty marketing aside, I had never understood why there would be hostility toward women who weren't dressed according to standards of perfect modesty. Then, after some time spent online in that world, I realized that it wasn't that these men were necessarily going to have actual sex with the first woman they saw, but that they had been warned against ever having sexual thoughts outside of marriage or masturbating. Simply put, these guys need to desperately avoid having a hard-on, so they start to hate seeing women. At that point, it's not just a weird religious rule that someone makes a personal decision to keep, but something that starts to affect others (esp. if these guys are going on public campaigns against immodesty). It also explains the rush to marriage after really short dating periods.

[Goyangi]

Oh, so temptation = masturbation. I thought she was talking about being tempted to cheat and I was like, WTF is wrong with you? LOL. It's still stupid, of course, just for a different reason.

And about the ten days...is she just talking about the fertile period of the cycle? Because that varies from woman to woman. Yeah, it can be ten days (especially, I guess, for younger woman) but it can also be less. This is just my round about way of asking whether or not a Fundie couple would have sex during the wive's period. I'm guessing no. LOL But for couples trying to avoid pregnancy that's a pretty good time to have sex.

[debrand]

Oh, so temptation = masturbation. I thought she was talking about being tempted to cheat and I was like, WTF is wrong with you? LOL. It's still stupid, of course, just for a different reason.

And about the ten days...is she just talking about the fertile period of the cycle? Because that varies from woman to woman. Yeah, it can be ten days (especially, I guess, for younger woman) but it can also be less. This is just my round about way of asking whether or not a Fundie couple would have sex during the wive's period. I'm guessing no. LOL But for couples trying to avoid pregnancy that's a pretty good time to have sex.

At first, I thought that she meant cheating also. When I realized that she probably just means fantasies, I sort of slapped my own forehead. After reading so many blogs, you'd think that I would know fundie speak by now.

Jess is actually pretty intelligent so I am amazed at the mental gymnastics that she must undergo to not view this mindset as demeaning to women.

Still, it is an odd reason to avoid ALL birth control, even NFP. It is so damned controlling of women. Not only can you not use the pill but you can't simply abstain during your fertile periods because you are responsible for guarding your husband's thoughts.

[AnnoDomini]

Duh, according to fundies, people have have no self-control in sexual matters (especially men with their lustful eyes), and that's why everything has to be strictly chaperoned.

[Goyangi]

I don't generally feel bad for Fundies. And I especially don't feel bad for male Fundies. But I must admit, I feel a teensy bit bad for teenaged male Fundies in the throes of puberty. I mean, aren't their little penises on a hair trigger? Not being a dude, I never went through it, but my understanding is that erections just sort of pop up at all sorts of inopportune times. I don't know...maybe Fundie male sexuality never matures (or, rather, the male sexual mindset doesn't) and that's why they seem to think women must be tip-toe around men lest the sexual beast (AKA erection) be unleashed.

Also, I'm pretty much convinced that the whole lot of them must be masochists. I'm surprised that any of them can get up in the morning without having already sinned somehow or go to bed at night without a couple rounds of self-flagellation.

[Deleted12]

So fundies aren't allowed to masturbate or even have fantasies even if they're married and they're thinking about their spouse?

What kind of fucked up logic is that?

If I got home after a week being gone and my theoretical spouse was like "I couldn't stop thinking dirty thoughts about you the whole time you were gone" I would be like "I can make all your fantasies come true right now. Dayum."

[27randomscribbles]

I see a lot of fundie women being *terrified* that their spouses will cheat on them...and I don't understand that. Don't they trust their husbands??? Seems to me that when cheating does occur, it's painful in part *because* of that loss of trust. But why treat a man as a cheater when he has never given you a reason to??

Of course, when you lump all kinds of ridiculous things under "cheating" like occasional porn use, a passing thought that someone other than your spouse is hot, etc, I guess it would be easy to be paranoid.

I don't know what you use for definitions of fundie or fundie-lite, but I was raised fairly conservatively Christian and although I no longer believe in God and became a feminist, pro-choice, pro-gay, liberal...I have serious fears of my husband cheating on me. It makes things difficult for us, the lack of trust often comes up in arguments. I hate it. I hate the worry, the crazy part of me that is always suspicious. Logically I know it's wrong to be this way, I have no reason to not trust him. But it still is in my head. I'm starting counseling and I hope to try and work on this.

I don't have much explanation, but if I could step back from myself and try to figure it out, it might have something to do with the way we (as children and young teens) were taught about sex and sexuality. Girls had to always keep the boundaries, because boys only think about sex and can't control themselves. Girls are pure and boys are dirty. These kinds of things. If one internalizes these messages very early perhaps it stays in their heads and even when they've left the lifestyle they grew up in, the messages are still deep in there.

I think that that makes sense, and it may be part of the reason I deal with this. I deal with a lot of other issues related to my upbringing and being an adoptee (fear of rejection could also tie into fear of being cheated on)...but I'm thankful to have access to counseling now, and to have a husband who knows my past and understands all of this, no matter how hard it is for us.

Religion fucked me up a lot. My parents "spanked" me a lot, and it is always in my memories. I know they only did what they thought was right, but it pisses me off that people could perpetuate the idea that beating kids into obedience is ok.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this. I just needed to vent a little, because I feel for the things religion does to people. It sucks. I wish I knew how to trust anyone. I wish I weren't so terrified of being left, cheated on, whatever. I'll hopefully get through it, but religion will just leave its mark on someone else.

[Austin]

Even if the reason is NFP, there's no reason to refrain from all sexual activity with your husband, unless the only kind ever engaged in is missionary-position intercourse. :roll:

Of course, I think the whole issue is incredibly stupid.

[ADoyle90815]

I will never ever ever get why so many religions and religious people are anti-masturbation. It's fun, it's free, it's safe, it's not cheating on your partner and it's not going to get anyone pregnant.

People who think that masturbation is a sin are modern day Puritans - joyless, fun-sucking, miserable bastards.

In the words of H.L. Mencken "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." It fits Steve Maxwell, Chris Jeub, and all of their ilk down to a T.

I don't get it either, as my ex-husband was raised in one of those churches that's anti-masturbation. Once, he was shocked that I didn't get angry when I walked in on him while he was in the act. I further shocked him by saying that it was perfectly healthy for him to take matters into his own hand. I had a nasty UTI that made sex painful, so when I walked in on him, I had already been taking the antibiotics the doctor prescribed.

In the end, when I filed for divorce, right after filing the papers, I got tested for every STD out there since he had admitted he cheated on someone else before me, and lied about how he got an STD. Fortunately, in my case, the tests were all negative, including the ones for HPV and HIV.

[ElphabaGalinda]

If they're talking about REAL temptation, and if they really were horndogs, i don't understand why they don't encourage masturbation. It takes care of urges and you're not cheating on your spouse.

But of course, for them sex is all about the baby makin' and anything enjoyable muuuuust be of the devil. And they think the wimmin folks would never have such sinful desires.

If they were allowed to masturbate their minds would probably not jump to cheating as much. And they can't even fantasize? I feel bad for the hormone crazed teenagers most of all.

[Kitten]

we both had to be active in fending off temptation.

I don't care if they're talking about actual sex, masturbation, smiling at the checkout clerk at the grocery store, or whatever else they consider "temptation."

We're talking TWO WEEKS, people. Really??!!! You're so beset by physical desire while either 1) taking care of the kids and house, or 2) working at a professional job that you have to actively resist temptation? This sounds more like typical teenage locker room boasting - more wishful thinking than actual happenings, if you know what I mean.

In other words, methinks she doth protest too much. :D I suspect she and hubs were both relieved to have two weeks "off duty," but she can't admit that, so she has to make it sound like it was a terrible trial.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I will never ever ever get why so many religions and religious people are anti-masturbation. It's fun, it's free, it's safe, it's not cheating on your partner and it's not going to get anyone pregnant.

Heh, my friends who got married in his family's very conservative church had to go through pastoral counseling before they could get married there. Anyway, he told them that masturbation is A OK as long as it's mutual masturbation (or masturbating in front of one partner for their gratification). Getting off on your own, on the other hand, is a dirty selfish act that implies you don't need the other person.

ETA: So glad I don't have to worry about this abstaining nonsense, thanks to the miracle of condoms and birth control.

[debrand]

If they're talking about REAL temptation, and if they really were horndogs, i don't understand why they don't encourage masturbation. It takes care of urges and you're not cheating on your spouse.

But of course, for them sex is all about the baby makin' and anything enjoyable muuuuust be of the devil. And they think the wimmin folks would never have such sinful desires.

If they were allowed to masturbate their minds would probably not jump to cheating as much. And they can't even fantasize? I feel bad for the hormone crazed teenagers most of all.

See, this is the strange thing about Jess. She has several articles about sex in which she encourages couples to enjoy themselves and be creative. She even braggs a bit about how wonderful her own sex life is. However she also has several articles in which she makes it sound as if the wife should have sex regardless of her own needs or desires. It is a very conflicting message and makes sex sound like it is more about meeting the husband's needs than the wife's.

For example in her most recent blogpost she writes:

I've heard a number of women express the idea that sex is like exercise-- "I may not always feel like doing it beforehand, but I'm always glad to have done it."

Um...okay. That doesn't sound very fun for either person

http://makinghome.blogspot.com/2011/10/ ... t-one.html

[Guest Anonymous]

Heh, my friends who got married in his family's very conservative church had to go through pastoral counseling before they could get married there. Anyway, he told them that masturbation is A OK as long as it's mutual masturbation (or masturbating in front of one partner for their gratification). Getting off on your own, on the other hand, is a dirty selfish act that implies you don't need the other person.

Oh dear lord. How is it more loving and selfless to harrass your partner into giving it up when they aren't in the mood than it is to say "no worries, babe" and go take care of it yourself? This is not earth logic.

[Austin]

For example in her most recent blogpost she writes:

:shock:

[Chrystal-J]

Duh, according to fundies, people have have no self-control in sexual matters (especially men with their lustful eyes), and that's why everything has to be strictly chaperoned.

I often wonder if fundy-ism attracts people who can't control themselves and are looking for someone or something else to do that for them.

[ElphabaGalinda]

See, this is the strange thing about Jess. She has several articles about sex in which she encourages couples to enjoy themselves and be creative. She even braggs a bit about how wonderful her own sex life is. However she also has several articles in which she makes it sound as if the wife should have sex regardless of her own needs or desires. It is a very conflicting message and makes sex sound like it is more about meeting the husband's needs than the wife's.

For example in her most recent blogpost she writes:

Um...okay. That doesn't sound very fun for either person

http://makinghome.blogspot.com/2011/10/ ... t-one.html

Ya, that's why I don't get her at all. Either sex is a duty for the wife whether she wants it or not, or you encourage couples to enjoy themselves. Those two things don't go together. It does seem like she's saying "your husband has needs, you should meet them! But you don't have any needs, so it's okay if sex is a chore". That's just my impression but it seems like such an obvious contradiction