Another Special Needs Adoption Death

[Terrie]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mother-8-adopted-children-special-needs-arrested-after-9-year-n959301

I'm all for special needs adoption, and I'm not against people adopting multiple times, but there's a piont where a lot of scrutiny needs to be given to ensure parents have adequete resources to care for another child and aren't just child collecting or giving in to some rescuer fantasy.

[Ozlsn]

1 hour ago, Terrie said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mother-8-adopted-children-special-needs-arrested-after-9-year-n959301

I'm all for special needs adoption, and I'm not against people adopting multiple times, but there's a piont where a lot of scrutiny needs to be given to ensure parents have adequete resources to care for another child and aren't just child collecting or giving in to some rescuer fantasy.

Or aren't feeling pressured or guilt-tripped into taking on another child. I've seen at least one case where the family was directly approached because "they were doing so well with the other two and it's so hard to find places for kids with high needs."

[Kailash]

That is such a terrible thing to have happen. The article says they estimate that the girl had been in the tub for 8 hours. Horrible. Other conditions make it clear that severe neglect was happening. So tragic. I hope the remaining 7 children are placed where they can be adequately taken care of. 

There should absolutely be limits on the number of children with special needs that any one person is allowed to adopt. 

[Howl]

I came across an article years ago that traced the parallels between child hoarding and animal hoarding, prompted by something that popped up on FJ. 

I can't find it right now, but there has been speculation that there may be a similar psychopathology underlying both.  Nobody seems to agree on the genesis of and underlying reasons for animal hoarding and there are varying types of animal hoarding, but depression and OCD seem to co-morbidities in people with animal hoarding issues.  

Jean Mercer speculates about it (back in 2012) in this blog post. 

Abusive Adoptive Megafamilies and Child Hoarding: A HIGHLY Speculative Post

 

[Sacrilicious Twerk-a-Work]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:21 AM, Howl said:

I came across an article years ago that traced the parallels between child hoarding and animal hoarding, prompted by something that popped up on FJ. 

I can't find it right now, but there has been speculation that there may be a similar psychopathology underlying both.  Nobody seems to agree on the genesis of and underlying reasons for animal hoarding and there are varying types of animal hoarding, but depression and OCD seem to co-morbidities in people with animal hoarding issues.  

Jean Mercer speculates about it (back in 2012) in this blog post. 

Abusive Adoptive Megafamilies and Child Hoarding: A HIGHLY Speculative Post

 

Not to be rude, but what I would like to know is HOW are they able to 'hoard' these kids? I've looked into an adoption before....the costs are outrageous and the red tape runs thick, yet somehow these nutters collect these little ones like Pez dispensers.

I hope and pray these children find a better life away from this disgusting situation

[Howl]

DH and I were listening to the radio last week.  An item was being discussed about parents who adopted at least 18 kids, and had two bio kids.  The kids (wasn't clear bio or adopted) told the parents they didn't want any more siblings because they already did not get enough time with their parents, but the parents overruled the kids and kept right on going. I thought this was horrible. 

[SoybeanQueen]

On 1/22/2019 at 7:43 PM, Sacrilicious Twerk-a-Work said:

Not to be rude, but what I would like to know is HOW are they able to 'hoard' these kids? I've looked into an adoption before....the costs are outrageous and the red tape runs thick, yet somehow these nutters collect these little ones like Pez dispensers.

Adoption from the foster system is often free. The mention of DCF having contact with them right after adoption was finalized indicates at least some of the kids were adopted through the system. Not only is it often free or very low cost, there are even some kinds of subsidies that can go along with it. Medicaid until the child is 18, or older in the case of some special needs. Some states have stipends to buy a bed and dresser for the child. Most offer a monthly subsidy for kids with special needs to help with their care or to make it easier for families to say yes to adopting siblings together.

International or private adoptions, I don't know. They're either wealthy or they crowd-fund for the fees.

[The Roman from Ipanema]

On 1/16/2019 at 1:26 PM, Terrie said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mother-8-adopted-children-special-needs-arrested-after-9-year-n959301

I'm all for special needs adoption, and I'm not against people adopting multiple times, but there's a piont where a lot of scrutiny needs to be given to ensure parents have adequete resources to care for another child and aren't just child collecting or giving in to some rescuer fantasy.

Too close to home, to think that I might have crossed paths with this evil woman makes me shudder.

[Howl]

On 2/9/2019 at 1:37 PM, SoybeanQueen said:

Not only is it often free or very low cost, there are even some kinds of subsidies that can go along with it. Medicaid until the child is 18, or older in the case of some special needs.

This past year the horrible case of the two women who adopted two sibling groups and then went on to drive the entire family over a cliff into the ocean brought to light that they were receiving some pretty hefty subsidies for their adopted children. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Howl

[Pecansforeveryone]

I had heard that Cliven Bundy, welfare queen in a cowboy hat, received subsidies as well for adopting children. I am still astonished his sons were aquitted of criminal charges after trespassing on tribal land and leaving a river of shit behind. Yes, even working class white men have white privilege,  Stephen Crowder. 

[Howl]

IIRC, it was Lavoy Finnecum and his wife who were certified to foster kids with challenging issues and received a substantial income from Catholic Charities for doing so.  The Wiki on Finnecum details that aspect of his life: 

Spoiler

... By 2008, Finicum operated a foster home for troubled boys near Chino Valley, Arizona.  According to a 2010 tax filing, Catholic Charities Community Services in Arizona paid the family US$115,343 to foster children in 2009. In January 2016, the state removed all of Finicum's foster children due to his involvement with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge (discussed below). Finicum said this took away his family's main source of income.

During that time, Finicum also operated a ranch that did not produce income. After the state removed his foster children, Finicum told the media, "My ranch, well, the cows just cover the costs of the ranch."

Lavoy was shot and killed after almost running over an FBI agent at a road block during the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon.  He was on his way to give a talk at a nearby town. 

  Lavoy and his wife both had previous marriages, so they had a yours, mine and ours blended family with something like 12 kids, at least some of whom were married adults at the time of Lavoy's death.

I can't imagine how his wife and kids have continued on, financially or emotionally.  As a Mormon family, though, they should getting tons of support from the church. 

The Finnecums had a pretty damned good life before Lavoy met Cliven Bundy and was "radicalized."  I doubt Cliven helps support the Finnecum family. 

Some of us followed the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge literally hour by hour at times.  I still can't believe the Bundys walked free. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Howl

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Howl, I could swear that while the Malheur Wildlife occupation was happening, that I saw a picture from LaVoy Finnicum's ranch, that included a homespun looking sign that said something like "Finnicum Ranch:  We raise watermelons and kids".

I can't find anything with a Google search, or an image search. Even the Oregonian's "Oregon Live" website let me down. Several of the articles that came up in a search of their site aren't available anymore.

I hope that the Finnicums were good foster parents to the kids that came to their ranch. And I also still can't believe that all the Bundys walked free, either. Or that that idiot Ammon still lives not that far from me. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

2 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I could swear that while the Malheur Wildlife occupation was happening, that I saw a picture from LaVoy Finnicum's ranch, that included a homespun looking sign that said something like "Finnicum Ranch:  We raise watermelons and kids".

I was confused. The sign I remembered is from Cliven Bundy's ranch. Oops.

Spoiler

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
removed unnecessary word

[Howl]

On 5/14/2019 at 10:38 PM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I hope that the Finnicums were good foster parents to the kids that came to their ranch.

My sense was that they were.  I recall they were therapeutic foster parents.  They lived just outside of Short Creek (10 miles or so) and I wondered if some of their wards were Lost Boys.  Once Lavoy was killed, I don't think the widow was allowed to keep the current foster boys, so she lost her source of income. 

If they weren't good foster parents, I don't think Catholic Charities would have stayed with them.  According to Wiki, they ran a boys home for awhile (WIKI) in Arizona before they had the little ranch with horses.   I suspect Lavoy was a reasonably good Mormon, husband, father, citizen, before Cliven Bundy "converted" to him to Sovereign Citizenship.  The seeds might have been there, but before Cliven,  Lavoy ran cattle on BLM land, always paid his lease and just lived his life. 

Probably back in the Malheur days, I pointed out that some (many?) rural Mormons still maintain extremely bitter feelings towards the US government over past adverse actions towards Mormons and also  the amount of land in the West and Southwest under Federal stewardship. Obviously, they still chafe.  

I mentioned this elsewhere, but a nice reminder: Obama declared Gold Butte, the area where Cliven Bundy grazed his cattle rent free, a national monument at the end of his term.  Gold Butte National Monument

On 5/14/2019 at 10:38 PM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Or that that idiot Ammon still lives not that far from me. 

Erma Gerd! I did not know this.  I hope you don't run into him at the grocery store or gas station.  We do have the satisfaction of knowing that he spent enough time in jail to realize he doesn't want to go back. 

Ammon quit social media and "The Movement" when he publicly disagreed on FB with Trump's vile immigration policies at the border. He got a lot of negative blowback and basically just said pfft, I'm outta here.  

I don't expect him to show up occupying government properties any time soon. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Howl

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

On 5/14/2019 at 9:38 PM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Or that that idiot Ammon still lives not that far from me. 

Erma Gerd! I did not know this.  I hope you don't run into him at the grocery store or gas station. 

Well, by "not that far", I mean about an hour travel time to a different town. I'm not likely to see him here in the "Big City".  He was on the local news for an interview when he disagreed on immigration, but I think the reporter went to his house. 

[raspberrymint]

On 2/9/2019 at 1:37 PM, SoybeanQueen said:

Adoption from the foster system is often free. The mention of DCF having contact with them right after adoption was finalized indicates at least some of the kids were adopted through the system. Not only is it often free or very low cost, there are even some kinds of subsidies that can go along with it. Medicaid until the child is 18, or older in the case of some special needs. Some states have stipends to buy a bed and dresser for the child. Most offer a monthly subsidy for kids with special needs to help with their care or to make it easier for families to say yes to adopting siblings together.

International or private adoptions, I don't know. They're either wealthy or they crowd-fund for the fees.

Is it not true that every child in the family must have their own bedroom?  I consider that a steep cost.

Edited August 2, 2019 by raspberrymint
elaboration

[Howl]

On 5/15/2019 at 12:31 AM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

The sign I remembered is from Cliven Bundy's 

Yes, the Bundys are a Mormon family with lots of kids. 

[katilac]

On 8/1/2019 at 8:22 PM, raspberrymint said:

Is it not true that every child in the family must have their own bedroom?  I consider that a steep cost.

Rules vary by area, but generally speaking no. A common requirement is two children per bedroom, with a bed for each one, no mixed sexes after five years old. If it's a big bedroom, they can waive that requirement, and it's often waived for sibling groups as well.  

And those are rules for foster children. Once you adopt, you don't have to follow them (so you could have more than that number of adopted children per bedroom, and the foster kids in the process would have to follow the rules). 

[Four is Enough]

On 1/22/2019 at 8:43 PM, Sacrilicious Twerk-a-Work said:

Not to be rude, but what I would like to know is HOW are they able to 'hoard' these kids? I've looked into an adoption before....the costs are outrageous and the red tape runs thick, yet somehow these nutters collect these little ones like Pez dispensers.

"Special needs" children are often accompanied by a stipend for their care. They also receive insurance until they're 18 or 21 if they go to college. The higher the need, the more the care received. We had a foster daughter who received excellent psychological and physical care on the state. This money makes them attractive to lunatics.

Two of our children were considered "special needs" as they were siblings and were to be placed together. We did adopt from foster care. It was cheaper than our private adoptions, but the recommendations they made needed to be implemented before the children could be placed. They did receive a stipend, and we used it on them... some people obviously do not. Believe you me, the money wasn't "enough" to cover the extra cost of raising them, but I'm still glad to have them~

On 8/1/2019 at 9:22 PM, raspberrymint said:

Is it not true that every child in the family must have their own bedroom?  I consider that a steep cost.

Not usually true. Sharing with a same sex child or so is ok. Bed yes, and bunks are generally frowned upon.

[SoybeanQueen]

We adopted three of our kids through foster care, and we did not have to have a bedroom for each. There are criteria as to what counts for a bedroom (appropriately sized, can't have them walk through one bedroom to get into another, must have appropriate window and door exits, etc) and if the bedroom is shared there had to be at least 45 sq ft per child. There were rules about bunk beds by age, and about dresser/closet/drawer space per kid.

[raspberrymint]

The layout of my house is four bedrooms (and a basement the size of the house).

If the living room doubles as the master bedroom with a bed that functions as a couch during the day, there is a bedroom next to the living room / master bedroom, the bathroom is between the front bedroom (not the living room) and the back bedroom, and the kitchen is behind the living room / master bedroom and accessible through the back bedroom as well as the living room, does this count as two bedrooms in addition to the living room / master bedroom or as one?  The bedroom accessible through the living room / master is larger.