Has Anything Taken the Place of VF?

[GenerationCedarchip]

I feel like so much has changed in the homeschooling world and in church culture in recent years, so I was just curious - do you see anything taking the place of VF in fundie culture? I know ATI is still out there, but since the fall of VF, both homeschool and traditional church circles are looking more introspective with a lot less emphasis on outward appearance, policing skirt length, etc...

They're not really a ministry but since VF, MLMs seem to be EVERYWHERE. That has gotten to the point that my church actually banned folks from shilling them at women's ministry events (a decision that left most of us feeling very #thankful and #blessed). However, I don't really see any one celebrity teacher/leader rising up to fill the VF void. Do you all see any successors out there?

I don't mean this as a criticism. I actually think it's good because what I'm seeing in church now is more of an emphasis on studying the actual Bible and trying to follow God rather than follow someone like DWP. I was just curious is there was some wrinkle to the movement I was missing in my little corner of the country.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Instagram has gotten much bigger in the 5 years since Tool’s downfall. Fundie Blogs are going away little by little while fundie Instagram pages are getting more and more followers. If you want to know who the next big thing will be in the fundie world, watch Instagram. 

[sleepy_doggos]

As far as homeschooling goes, Classical Conversations (right title?) is rumored to be the next popular fundie curriculum. I don't know anything about it, but I've known a couple fundie/fundie lite families who are into classical type schooling. There's even a new private school near me advertising themselves as a classical school.

[luv2laugh]

I think that evangelical mega church conferences will soon take over where VF & IBLP left off.

I’ve been watching to try to predict what will define the new, modern era of Christian Fundamentalism. 

I also know of a few fundies that are into Classical Convention homeschooling.

I agree that whatever comes next seems to smell of a trend focused on not a pastor/ preacher but “soaking up the word” and hosting conferences on how to enhance your relationship with God through prayer journals and coffee.

Edited November 20, 2018 by luv2laugh

[browngrl]

32 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

If you want to know who the next big thing will be in the fundie world, watch Instagram. 

I do want to know who is the next big thing in the fundie world but most of the fundies I check out have private Instagram accounts. I put in a request to follow one private account (Adeline Morton) and she turned me down - not sure why, my Instagram is mostly pictures of my dog/cat/flowers.Anyway if there are interesting fundies with public accounts, I'd check them out.

[Howl]

17 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

hosting conferences on how to enhance your relationship with God through prayer journals and coffee.

Coffee.  It seems to be a "thing" in mid-size to mega churches.  Which also brings to mind "Coffee with Jesus."  

[luv2laugh]

5 minutes ago, Howl said:

Coffee.  It seems to be a "thing" in mid-size to mega churches.  Which also brings to mind "Coffee with Jesus."  

I have a theory.

Coffee is iconic and almost a symbol of the quintessential Evangelical Christian Women life. I believe coffee became iconic in evangelism as a protest against all of the many popular Mormon women blogs that have long dominated the internet due to the LDS belief in documenting & journaling their life for historical purposes to share for generations. Mormon women do not believe in drinking coffee, do not believe Jesus is God himself but is the son, and the most popular mothering Pinterest craft blogs are usually by Mormons.

As we all know, Evangelicals deeply disagree with Catholics and Mormons. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by luv2laugh

[dawbs]

11 minutes ago, Howl said:

Coffee.  It seems to be a "thing" in mid-size to mega churches.  Which also brings to mind "Coffee with Jesus."  

The episcopal are goign to flip out over this.  They were so sure they cornered the market

[sleepy_doggos]

I have a theory.
Coffee is iconic and almost a symbol of the quintessential Evangelical Christian Women life. I believe coffee became iconic in evangelism as a protest against all of the many popular Mormon women blogs that have long dominated the internet due to the LDS belief in documenting & journaling their life for historical purposes to share for generations. Mormon women do not believe in drinking coffee, do not believe Jesus is God himself but is the son, and the most popular mothering Pinterest craft blogs are usually by Mormons.
As we all know, Evangelicals deeply disagree with Catholics and Mormons. 

Much respect to your thoughts, but I disagree. It seems like a reach to say that the whole movement was based on things another sect of religious people were doing online. As a young evangelical I never considered how Mormons spent their days, no matter how much we disagreed theologically. Simply based on experiences, no knowledge base or anything, coffee is more like a symbol for meditative thought or quiet meetings. The coffee thing happened when megachurches were starting to rise and churches started to become more impersonal and massive. Coffee (or meeting over coffee) was the way to make that impersonal monster personal again. It's representing the meeting in twos and threes the bible spoke of. It's also better for introverts or those who don't like crowds, and has the benefit of being trendy or a way to be out and about, see and be seen. It also doesn't have strict religious overtones so can be done while remaining cool and not looking too Christian ('in the world but not of it'). Moms also used it as a way to bond over the exhaustion of motherhood-- 'all I need is coffee and Jesus'! Taking time for coffee is both a luxury and a push for more activity, which is beneficial to tired moms who happen to be religious. It turned into a cultural phenomenon around the same time that craft beer, craft coffee, local food, and local shopping exploded with similar markets as well. It's the millenials craving individuality and connection in a world of consumerism.
That's my theory anyway!

[luv2laugh]

17 minutes ago, sleepy_doggos said:

 

 

Much respect to your thoughts, but I disagree. It seems like a reach to say that the whole movement was based on things another sect of religious people were doing online. As a young evangelical I never considered how Mormons spent their days, no matter how much we disagreed theologically. Simply based on experiences, no knowledge base or anything, coffee is more like a symbol for meditative thought or quiet meetings. The coffee thing happened when megachurches were starting to rise and churches started to become more impersonal and massive. Coffee (or meeting over coffee) was the way to make that impersonal monster personal again. It's representing the meeting in twos and threes the bible spoke of. It's also better for introverts or those who don't like crowds, and has the benefit of being trendy or a way to be out and about, see and be seen. It also doesn't have strict religious overtones so can be done while remaining cool and not looking too Christian ('in the world but not of it'). Moms also used it as a way to bond over the exhaustion of motherhood-- 'all I need is coffee and Jesus'! Taking time for coffee is both a luxury and a push for more activity, which is beneficial to tired moms who happen to be religious. It turned into a cultural phenomenon around the same time that craft beer, craft coffee, local food, and local shopping exploded with similar markets as well. It's the millenials craving individuality and connection in a world of consumerism.
That's my theory anyway!

 

I believe it is a mix of the two. The Mormons have a cultural problem of shaming people for drinking coffee because they’re not obeying the Word of Wisdom. I am not LDS/Mormon/Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint but the ones that I know are very upfront about not drinking coffee and will go as far as refusing to meet in a Starbucks & ask to go across the street to Panera Bread to “avoid the appearance of evil” associated with coffee. The mommy blogging community has always been heavily dominated by Latter Day Saints. Many of the trendiest Instagram photos today are by Mormons (e.g. Freckled Fox) and they would never be caught dead having people think they’ve had even a taste of coffee. Who would think something like coffee could divide women? It’s a big deal for both Evangelical mommy bloggers as well as the LDS but for the opposite reason.

Edited November 20, 2018 by luv2laugh

[meowfundiecatz]

As one who has been an evangelical for quite a while, I have to agree with @sleepy_doggos, coffee and Jesus has been around much longer than the rise of Mormon Mommy Bloggers. Although, I always love with the MMB's go to Starbucks and HAVE to make sure to let us all know it's hot chocolate. LDS culture has been a pet interest of mine for a while now. It's interesting especially between Utah LDS vs. Everywhere Else LDS.

As for what is the new VF, I know of (personally) two families that were deep in the VF kool-aid who are now Hebrew Roots. I assume it's something to do with rule following. I read on another topic on here that someone (I'm sorry I can't remember who!) who had been involved with VF and then went the Orthodox route.

There was a post (again somewhere, sorry I've been up since the crack of dawn) about Classical Conversations having some nefarious issues.

As far as who sits on the throne, well I don't think anyone does. Sure, the Hebrew Roots people have their teachers. But I think that VF was so cult-like that unless another leader becomes that prominent, we won't see something totally "take the place of" VF. (Similarly with ATI, although as ATI becomes more and more lax, I could see some people going that way. IIRC, the Basic Seminar is no longer a requirement, but I could have read that wrong somewhere).

[Leftitinmysnood]

I disagree on Classical Conversations. We used to have 3 different groups in my town, now I think we are back to one. Why? It's expensive and time consuming if you have a bunch of kids. Moms burn out quickly there, from what I've seen. 

In my state (CA), everyone is going to private charters. The grandkids of at least 2 families from the Gothard-adjacent cult I was in attend branches of the same private charter some of my kids attend.  My crazy judgy s-i-l recently put her kids under the auspices of a charter, and my quiverful coworker has all 9 kids in a charter. Some say it's to keep their kids safe from the government, but they are one of the places that will give you $$ for lessons and (non-religious) curriculum without requiring vaccines.

As for the next big thing? I think it will be cultish online churches like Gwen Shamblin's. Mark Driscoll tried, but got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Watch for someone more charming to spring up in that field.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

5 hours ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

However, I don't really see any one celebrity teacher/leader rising up to fill the VF void. Do you all see any successors out there?

I don't have any inside perspective on this, but I wonder if Trump is taking up so much air on the far right that the focus is shifting from virginity/ modesty/ etc. to guns and conspiracy theories.

[ophelia]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

Coffee.  It seems to be a "thing" in mid-size to mega churches.  Which also brings to mind "Coffee with Jesus."  

I have to admit that I listen to a spotify playlist "Coffee and Jesus" on a regular basis! 

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I believe it is a mix of the two. The Mormons have a cultural problem of shaming people for drinking coffee because they’re not obeying the Word of Wisdom. I am not LDS/Mormon/Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint but the ones that I know are very upfront about not drinking coffee and will go as far as refusing to meet in a Starbucks & ask to go across the street to Panera Bread to “avoid the appearance of evil” associated with coffee. The mommy blogging community has always been heavily dominated by Latter Day Saints. Many of the trendiest Instagram photos today are by Mormons (e.g. Freckled Fox) and they would never be caught dead having people think they’ve had even a taste of coffee. Who would think something like coffee could divide women? It’s a big deal for both Evangelical mommy bloggers as well as the LDS but for the opposite reason.

Mormons seem to have a huge problem with coffee??? I never heard of that before. Is that a law stated in the book of Mormon? 

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

I have to admit that I listen to a spotify playlist "Coffee and Jesus" on a regular basis! 

Mormons seem to have a huge problem with coffee??? I never heard of that before. Is that a law stated in the book of Mormon? 

They do. Mormons have to follow the Word of Wisdom health codes to maintain their "Temple Recommend" (it's their pass that allows them to attend temple weddings and go inside the temple for baptisms). They have to abstain from coffee, tea, and alcohol. Mormons are regularly interviewed to make sure they are following all of the rules in order to maintain their temple recommend. If they admit to breaking rules, their temple recommend is taken away for a period of time and it's a very embarrassing, humiliating situation for the family. They cannot attend family and friends weddings in the temple & are ostracized from anything involving temple activities. The temple recommend is most commonly taken away for reasons such as not following their Laws of Chastity (masturbation, pornography, etc. not allowed) or if they (the men) are not tithing 10%. Wives can usually keep their temple recommends if the husband isn't tithing but the husband is punished by getting it taken away.

I have Mormon friends. They say that the shaming of drinking coffee is more prevalent in Utah "Mormon Culture" than in other area but that overall, it's not accepted. My friend that is a Mormon (the church wants them to call themselves Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints now) will not go to Starbucks with me or other friends-- only a place like Panera Bread/Chipotle/Corner Bakery that doesn't market itself based on coffee or tea because they are told to "avoid all appearance of evil". If they walk into a Starbucks and order hot chocolate, they still appear to be drinking something that could be seen/mistaken by someone else as coffee. It depends on the person on how strict they take it (whether they go to Starbucks at all or never).

Ironically, some believe it's okay to take caffeine supplements such as Vivarin and do. Some openly drink Pepsi/Coca Cola and some shame those that do. It is about the "hot drinks" terminology, which they mean as coffee/tea, that they must avoid. I asked my friend if they could simply drink coffee iced or tea iced and she was firm about saying NO. My research on that has also confirmed this as well...

On a completely different note, I've been in the Gwen Shamblin rabbit hole and I've been very shocked at how many of her beliefs seem very similar, but more extreme, to some aspects of Mormonism.

Edited November 20, 2018 by luv2laugh

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Ironically, some believe it's okay to take caffeine supplements such as Vivarin and do. Some openly drink Pepsi/Coca Cola and some shame those that do. It is about the "hot drinks" terminology, which they mean as coffee/tea, that they must avoid. I asked my friend if they could simply drink coffee iced or tea iced and she was firm about saying NO. My research on that has also confirmed this as well...

It really depends on the Mormon and their interpretation of the Word of Wisdom - healthy living, "no stimulants," and no harmful drug rules.  And you forgot tobacco.  Re. soda and coke:  I remember Mitt Romney defending his diet coke habit way back when he ran for President the first time. 

https://mormonrules.com/mormon-rules-health/no-caffeine

Quote

The Mormon Church released an official statement in 1972 about the subject:

With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.

When it comes down to it, the point of the Word of Wisdom is to take care of our bodies. Mormons believe that bodies are a gift from God and should be respected and taken care of, both inside and out.  Being addicted to any substance is proven unhealthy, and addictive behaviors should be avoided. It’s not rocket science that soda provides no health benefits to our bodies, and it would not be considered healthy to “need” soda to get by day-to-day.  To avoid this, some Mormons choose not to drink caffeinated sodas at all, others just try to drink them sparingly.

 

Back to topic:

12 hours ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I was just curious - do you see anything taking the place of VF in fundie culture? I know ATI is still out there, but since the fall of VF, both homeschool and traditional church circles are looking more introspective with a lot less emphasis on outward appearance, policing skirt length, etc...

Not yet.  But what was VF anyway.  It was a Fundie parachurch loosely crossing across denominations rather than a church or denomination on its own.  VF ran a big splashy Film Festival, organised big splashy "historical" reenactment events, ran revised "history" guided tours, had a posh intern program focused on manliness and film production, and glorified God with a short lived Hazardous Journeys program for favored young men.  Doug ran his catalog business on the side and the products he sold were suitable for most evangelical Christians.

Although Doug and co. preached Biblical Patriarchy, VF followers all had their own churches.  Most probably cherry picked what they wanted from VF and left the rest.  The Fall of the Tool did not effect them as much as the Fall of Gothard affected IBLP followers.

That said, I had fully expected someone like Scott Brown to scoop up many disaffected VF followers and make a much bigger splash.  Scottie was on the BoD of VF, after all, and helped liquidate it.  However, they seem to have shared out the spoils rather than have anyone be as dominant as Doug at VF.

Scottie did scoop up some true believers because NCFIC is still going strong, and quick looks at his conference line-ups show many familiar VF faces. https://ncfic.org/  Scottie also has an internship program but he is so much less flamboyant 

The Turleys and Bill Potter picked up the revised history tours.  They are still going but a shadow of their former glory.  We don't mock them as much as when Dougie was around.   https://landmarkevents.org/assets/email/2013/12-26-introduction2/

I still mourn the snark potential we lost with the demise of the Film Festival, the Titanic Society, and the Hazardous Journeys, but those were basically just parties and misscations that only involved the elite of VF.  The polloi who supported Doug' ego with hard cash probably doesn't miss them.

I expect a lot of mega churches and TV evangelists have picked up VF followers too.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Palimpsest

[Terrie]

I've actually seen some people in the fundie realm explicitly compare Classical Conversations with VF, as in "It's going to blow up and collapse just like VF and for some of the same reasons," So the cycle is at the stage of "about to be the last big thing." Some good commentary here:

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/classical-conversations-bibliography-page/

[Hane]

13 hours ago, dawbs said:

The episcopal are goign to flip out over this.  They were so sure they cornered the market [on the importance of coffee as a cultural cornerstone]. 

Hey, and we UUs thought WE had it all sewn up!

How do you desecrate a Catholic church?

     Steal the chalice.

How do you desecrate a synagogue?

     Steal the Torah.

How do you desecrate a UU meetinghouse?

     Steal the coffeemaker.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I have seen a lot of criticism of CC, but there still seem to be plenty of people jumping on that bandwagon. Personally, it's not how I would like to school my kids and I don't like their business model at all. However, it doesn't seem to be so much of a complete culture and lifestyle in the way VF was.

 

I do wish it wasn't taking over homeschool conferences to the degree it is, though. There are other ways to homeschool.

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I had fully expected someone like Scott Brown to scoop up many disaffected VF followers and make a much bigger splash. 

Yes, you could say that disaffected VF followers tend to be short on memory, if not cash & acumen, so it wouldn't be surprising for them to flock to a new scam.

Scott's business model after the demise of VFI/VFM was probably affected by the slight matter of the perfect Brown parents being estranged from their oldest child & her family, and then that child's rather messy divorce. Not only did all of it come after the Browns had put on the VF wedding of the century, but it also must have put a crimp in the promotion of their seminars on marriage, though it looks like they're back at it & still pushing a lot of the same shite:

Quote

 

We will outline how to identify potential spouses for our children, detail how we encourage young men to ready themselves for marriage, and identify various ways to connect with others who may be potential marriage partners.

We will identify how to prepare sons and daughters for marriage and lay the foundation from the early years. We will study the scripture for how young people should treat one another in the church.

 

According to its 2016 IRS 990, the NCFIC is hardly the money maker that VFM was back in the day -- several $100K per year vs. $2-3 mill in VFM's heyday, as seen in the screenshot below from its 2011 IRS 990: 

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Scott's business model after the demise of VFI/VFM was probably affected by the slight matter of the perfect Brown parents being estranged from their oldest child & her family, and then that child's rather messy divorce.

Ah, yes.  But that news didn't break for quite a while.  I can't help wondering whether Scottie was poised for a takeover and then decided that his laundry was too dirty to hang on the line.  People like Dan Horn and Jason Dohm still hang out with Scott though. 

It was probably hardest on the young bloods like Natty D. and Bradrick! who were given a completely false idea of their own talents and accomplishments.

As for the other big wigs in (or benefitters) from VF glory days - they all seemed to slope off with their tails between their legs while pretending they had never been involved.  Botkin seems semi-retired as a leader and barely productive these days, Baucham cut his losses and trotted off to convert Zambia, we all know what happened to Spanky - who else is there that I missed out? 

[Georgiana]

I think some of it too is just the pendulum swing.  

During VF's heyday, the mark of an "extra good" Christian was to buck all trends.  Trends were a sign of worldliness, and so the less "on trend" you were, the better of a Christian you must be.  

Then it started to swing back.  Frumpers went to "modest modern", but still skirts only.  SOME knowledge of the world was encouraged, as fundies started to realize the monetary power of social media and the internet, but you still wanted to be "set apart".

Now, we're at the other side of the pendulum swing.  Now the mark of being the "world's best Christian" is being able to be SUPER on-point and trendy, but in a Christian way.  I think coffee is part of that, because coffee is trendy and relatable and #momlife.  Now it's about showing that yes, you DO go to Starbucks...but dang if you don't carry a sharpie to write "Merry Christmas" on your cup because you STILL love Jesus! Now you DO wear pants like everyone else, because you're all about Jesus being concerned with your heart not your clothing, but you still dress modestly and judge all the other women who don't meet your standards.  

3 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

As for the other big wigs in (or benefitters) from VF glory days - they all seemed to slope off with their tails between their legs while pretending they had never been involved.  Botkin seems semi-retired as a leader and barely productive these days, Baucham cut his losses and trotted off to convert Zambia, we all know what happened to Spanky - who else is there that I missed out? 

Speaking of the Botkins, I would LOVE to know what those girls are up to and what their plans are for the future.  Besides "Nothing", which I suspect is the actual answer.

[Terrie]

1 hour ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I have seen a lot of criticism of CC, but there still seem to be plenty of people jumping on that bandwagon. Personally, it's not how I would like to school my kids and I don't like their business model at all.

I'm not the biggest fan of any packaged classical education, which is very Western-centeric, oddly fetishistic about Latin (I took Latin for a couple years before switching to French. It's not a cure-all to all educational ills). and the magical thinking about memorization. CC seems to take the worst elements and ramp them up even further, and which seems to support a cultish group think about it being the Very Best Ever! And if it's not, they claim what you don't like about it isn't REALLY CC. 

[seraaa]

5 minutes ago, Terrie said:

I'm not the biggest fan of any packaged classical education, which is very Western-centeric, oddly fetishistic about Latin (I took Latin for a couple years before switching to French. It's not a cure-all to all educational ills). and the magical thinking about memorization. CC seems to take the worst elements and ramp them up even further, and which seems to support a cultish group think about it being the Very Best Ever! And if it's not, they claim what you don't like about it isn't REALLY CC. 

After reading about it I wondered if they were consciously trying to mimic the kind of education you'd get an elite private/UK public school. Like, the really fancy ones

[hoipolloi]

37 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

who else is there that I missed out? 

Jennie Chancey, after spending a few years among apparently non-fundie hipsters in South Africa, now says that her inspiration for having 12 kids was Cheaper By the Dozen:

Quote

 

I was inspired to have a big family by the book Cheaper by the Dozen, written by the second eldest of 12 children who grew up in the 1920s and 1930s in the States. 

Their parents were the most fabulous, well-read, forward-thinking people and decided that it was more economical to bring up 12 bright, enquiring human beings than “a mere piddling three or four”.

I’ve found it a wonderful adventure that keeps me on my toes and fills me with joy.

 

Nary a mention there of passionate housewives, the horrors of feminism, quiverfull, or VF.

Why, even Matt -- the original homeschool know-it-all -- now indicates he's attending the LSE: