Debate in comments section with kelly bates

[Daisy4]

I'm posting from my phone at the moment so I can't copy/paste links but check out the comments section of the tent meeting post of the Bateses blog gilbatesfamily.com/blog

 

One commenter is a military wife and wants advice on having a large family while her husband is away. (her name is amanda, but there are two amandas posting). Another commenter, kay, pretty much tells her to wait on having more children. Then kelly gets involved.

 

W ishat great is that it seems that kay recently sent the bateses a nice care package with things for the kids do kelly can't just block her comments from the blog.

 

Sorry for typos, I'm terrible at typing on my phone.

[Jessica]

"One of the best resources for finances is “The Financial Freedom Seminar†by Jim Sammons available through IBLP ministries ( http://store.iblp.org/categories/DVD/) . We have also heard many great reports of Ron Blue’s material on finances, but have not personally been through it (http://www.mastermoney.org/). Gil shared some testimonies 2 years ago at an ATI homeschool conference called “How to Raise a Family of 19 Without a Set Income†that is available through the website given for IBLP. It is not a “How-to†message, but instead just some encouraging stories of God’s provision. Love, Kelly"

The lady asks for financial help and she leads her to a $99 seminar and a $12 DVD. Just link to Dave Ramsey and save the woman $100 for pete's sake!

[Joykins]

The lady asks for financial help and she leads her to a $99 seminar and a $12 DVD. Just link to Dave Ramsey and save the woman $100 for pete's sake!

Word!

[debrand]

This is Kelly answer under Gil's name

Often in life we want to avoid hardships, but sometimes those hardships are the very things that help us become better people, closer family members, and more committed Christians. If I had chosen to hold off on having children just because it was difficult, I guess I’d be without any children at present. Looking back, I wouldn’t change one thing and I’m so thankful for the memories I have of God giving grace and strength and direction during dark or lonely hours. My faith was increased as a result and my love for others grew. May God bless, Kelly

Dear Kelly, Do you realize that Amanda might possibly have her husband far away, as well as in harm’s way, as she has her next child? She mentioned difficult pregnancies, frequently having to move and not living near relatives. Besides the children, to care for in the best possible way, She has her home to care for singlehandedly, not to mention regular housework, the yard work is hers to do, as is the car maintenance. I know this Kelly, because I lived it as a Navy wife. I am not a person who ‘avoids handships’ but I am very realistic. As a Navy wife, I had 6 children, I wouldn’t give even one of them back, I love them all, but I would never in good conscience advise any other young woman to try it. I forgot to mention that I also worked full time and attended college 3 nights a week so I could get a better job, since my husband’s Navy pay was not enough to support 6 children. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one, my friend. Love and God Bless, Kay

Whoever kay is, I love her already

[desertvixen]

Seconding the love for Kay.

[Koala]

Kelly doesn't care. It isn't her that will be struggling.

[Childless]

Anybody stupid enough to take advice from Kelly Bates gets what they deserve in my opinion. She and her family only have enough because of the generous handout of others. They do not do it on their own. Furthermore, Amanda will be the one caring for all these kids, not Kelly. If the thought of that makes her feel overwhelmed, then she should not have a large family. Who gives a shit what Kelly thinks.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Dave Ramsey charges for Financial Peace University, but many of the host Churches offer full scholarships.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

She and her family only have enough because of the generous handout of others.

And the goodwill of their son, Lawson. He makes up the difference for them when they are running short...... You can read more here--this is also in another thread http://abcnews.go.com/US/tennessee-fami ... d=14364190

[Jessica]

Dave Ramsey charges for Financial Peace University, but many of the host Churches offer full scholarships.

Yeah but you can get the basic jist of his program for free from his website.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Yeah but you can get the basic jist of his program for free from his website

.

True, but if they are interested in the course--like the Sammons seminar--they have to pay. I think it can be very helpful to have the support of the class (it was for me!)

[liltwinstar]

How is it totally ok and nicey-nice to take a loan from your kid, but not to take a loan from a legitimate lending institution???? As a 19-year-old man, Lawson should be able to save that money towards his own future, not have to lend it out to his parents or use it for his siblings' education! And how does that help him?? I hope to goodness they pay him interest...

Makes me angry that they vilify debt but then take loans from their kid. That makes me livid, in fact.

[jesusfreak]

No they don't pay Lawson interest.

Lawson, 19, plays a crucial and many-faceted role. He started a lawn-mowing business when he was 13 that makes enough money to provide a rolling no-interest line of credit to his parents and siblings. Gil and Kelly reject debt of all kinds: no mortgage, car loan or credit cards. Lawson is their only creditor.

I guess that explains why they prefer to loan from their son. It's interest free money!!!

[dawniecakes]

Yeah but you can get the basic jist of his program for free from his website.

Or get the Total Money Makeover Book from the Library. Heck if she called the show, he almost always gives free copies of his book and Financial Peace University if he thinks they will attend.

And he runs $10 specials all the time for the books, even the audiobook, which is what got us into the program and have paid off $108,000 worth of debt in 2.5 years!! :) All that's left is our first mortgage.

We love Dave, but you definitely don't have to attend Financial Peace University to do the program. Its just the 7 Baby Steps. We've listed to the FPU cds (borrowed) and it just goes into more detail on how to negotiate, dealing with credit sharks, etc. but it was Baby Steps 1 and 2 that really are the crux of it ($1000 emergency fund, then debt snowball with smallest to largest debt). Not rocket surgery.

We're on Baby Step 3 now and should have our fully funded 6 month Emergency fund by end of September probably :D

[Koala]

How is it totally ok and nicey-nice to take a loan from your kid, but not to take a loan from a legitimate lending institution???? As a 19-year-old man, Lawson should be able to save that money towards his own future, not have to lend it out to his parents or use it for his siblings' education! And how does that help him?? I hope to goodness they pay him interest...

Makes me angry that they vilify debt but then take loans from their kid. That makes me livid, in fact.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I am absolutely appalled that they are relying on loans from their 19 year old son. The article spoke of him paying for a $400 grocery shopping trip, and loaning thousands of dollars to both his parents and siblings.

And Kelly and Gil? What the HELL can they be thinking getting pregnant AGAIN??????????? They can't afford the children they have now. Their son affords them.

I'm sure their "debt free" policy comes from this verse: Romans 13:8 Do not owe anyone anything-except to love one another. For the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

What hypocrites! They DO owe a man, and that man is their son. Their children are not his obligation. People like this make me absolutely sick. How dare they continue producing children while borrowing money from their son?????

[demgirl]

This:

Gil and Kelly reject debt of all kinds: no mortgage, car loan or credit cards.

is not compatible with this:

Lawson is their only creditor.

Also, does it sound to anyone else like Lawson is less a "creditor" and more a "sugar daddy"? The article makes it seem like his "loaning" is actually "giving". I hope they pay him back every penny.

What loathsome people.

[marmalade]

This reminds me, in reverse, how Smuggar has fooled most people into believing he earned that house and car lot with the sweat of his own brow. Boob is HIS creditor.

They're all a bunch of lying hypocrites, but believers will believe their icons can do no wrong, so our discussions about will fall on deaf ears. I can't wait to hear the comments after the show airs tonight.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I am absolutely appalled that they are relying on loans from their 19 year old son. The article spoke of him paying for a $400 grocery shopping trip, and loaning thousands of dollars to both his parents and siblings.

And Kelly and Gil? What the HELL can they be thinking getting pregnant AGAIN??????????? They can't afford the children they have now. Their son affords them.

I'm sure their "debt free" policy comes from this verse: Romans 13:8 Do not owe anyone anything-except to love one another. For the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

What hypocrites! They DO owe a man, and that man is their son. Their children are not his obligation. People like this make me absolutely sick. How dare they continue producing children while borrowing money from their son?????

Completely agree. That just makes me sick.

[doggie]

are the loans from the son loans or grants? do they really pay it back? I doubt it. if they need it they must be pretty short. do they have periods they make so much they can pay it back? I think they see this as a reward from god for having so many children. Not as the Charity it really is because people see foolish people in need. Letting god select the size of your family but begging for more children are not compatible beliefs.

[ladypuglover]

Dear Amanda,

Have your progesterone levels checked to see if your misscarriages are related to low levels. For morning sickness, different things work for different people… I try to eat small snacks through the day and keep peppermints handy, but my morning sickness is not severe at all. To help with the 3 little ones, begin reading as many good parenting books as possible! We loved Gary Ezzo’s “Preparation for Parentingâ€, “Growing Kids God’s Wayâ€, and “Protection of Moral Innocense.†Vision Forum sells many helpful parenting books. As for family and friends, we were kind of own our own at first also, but it ended up being a blessing that knit our hearts together and made our family close. A good church family can be a strong source of encouragement! Love, Kelly

So Kelly suggested the Ezzo's book? I never read child care books but isn't that the one that encourages beatings, and other nonsense childrearing like timed feeding?

[Karsaroni]

Isn't this the same woman (or maybe it was Gil) that brags about not having health insurance for the past 10 years!? How is this family any different from others on public assistance?

[Daisy4]

I'm home now and can post on a computer.

Here is what I was talking about:

• By Lynn, July 4, 2011 @ 7:34 pm

Happy 4th of July to you too Bates Family! You all look great! Love the little one’s dresses. Did Michaela make them? God Bless!

• By Gil, July 4, 2011 @ 7:45 pm

Dear Lynn,

Yes, she made them Saturday so they could match for church Sunday. A dear sweet lady we have never met in person mailed boxes of fabric! Michaella has been on cloud 9!! Kay Walter e-mails and posts comments and has encouraged us through many gifts! The fabric was a special treat! Love, Kelly

• By Kay W, July 4, 2011 @ 8:28 pm

And I literally thank God I am able to do that. All of the credit goes to God and Michaela. God provides and Michaela creates. Take care and stay safe. Love, Kay

• By Kay Walter, July 4, 2011 @ 11:17 pm

Ah, Kelly, you make me laugh…so much for remaining anonymous. The credit goes to God for providing the funds and Michaela for her diligence and creativity. I just have the fun of selecting things. The girls look so cute and festive in their dresses. Kudos to Michaela for thinking of bows and flowers. You know I love you all. God bless. Kay

So back before the 4th of July, Kay sent the bates family some gifts including fabric for Michaella to sew dresses

Then on a later post, Amanda asks for advice

By Amanda, August 15, 2011 @ 4:28 pm

Dear Kelly,

I am so glad to hear your pregnancy is going well! We will continue to pray. My husband and I have three kiddos. Ages 5, 2, 1. Two boys and a girl. I have always felt lead to have a large family. We have suffered a couple miscarriages and I struggle to want to get pregnant again because I am scared. Also I have hard pregnancies. I am very sick and worry because I have 3 small children to care for. My husband is in the military so we don’t live by family and friends move often. I would love more children. Do you have any advice? Thanks

Amanda

By Gil, August 15, 2011 @ 5:55 pm

Dear Amanda,

Have your progesterone levels checked to see if your misscarriages are related to low levels. For morning sickness, different things work for different people… I try to eat small snacks through the day and keep peppermints handy, but my morning sickness is not severe at all. To help with the 3 little ones, begin reading as many good parenting books as possible! We loved Gary Ezzo’s “Preparation for Parentingâ€, “Growing Kids God’s Wayâ€, and “Protection of Moral Innocense.†Vision Forum sells many helpful parenting books. As for family and friends, we were kind of own our own at first also, but it ended up being a blessing that knit our hearts together and made our family close. A good church family can be a strong source of encouragement! Love, Kelly

By Amanda, August 15, 2011 @ 9:30 pm

Dear Kelly,

Thanks so much for the advice. With my last pregnancy I was on progestrone as well as blood thinners. It seemed to work because we have baby number three, a 1 year old baby girl. I would appreciate prayers for any future babies. Also thanks for the names of some good books. I try to read as many good parenting books as I can Also do your have any reasources for keeping finances in order? WE are on a limited income and try to stay of of debt. Thanks

Amanda

By Gil, August 16, 2011 @ 9:52 pm

Dear Amanda,

One of the best resources for finances is “The Financial Freedom Seminar†by Jim Sammons available through IBLP ministries ( http://store.iblp.org/categories/DVD/) . We have also heard many great reports of Ron Blue’s material on finances, but have not personally been through it (http://www.mastermoney.org/). Gil shared some testimonies 2 years ago at an ATI homeschool conference called “How to Raise a Family of 19 Without a Set Income†that is available through the website given for IBLP. It is not a “How-to†message, but instead just some encouraging stories of God’s provision. Love, Kelly

By Kay W, August 20, 2011 @ 6:51 pm

Dear Kelly, as a former Army Brat and Navy wife may I offer Amanda some advice? Right now taking care of 3 young children as primarily a single parent is enough of a task for you to do and do well. You have plenty ‘on your plate’ at this time taking care of the children you already have. Can I guess that your husband is not making a great deal of money currently,is not home for long periods of time, and each time you have to move it takes about a year to catch up financially? If you feel you still want a large family, wait until your husband is no longer in the military. Yes, children are a blessing, but why not wait until you can appreciate what a blessing they are, when you are a two parent family once again. Please at least consider this advice, God will surely forgive you for wanting to be the best parent you can be, primarily alone, and want to defer the rest of your blessing for a better time. God Bless you, Amanda. Kay

By Gil, August 22, 2011 @ 8:30 pm

Dear Kay (In response to your note to Amanda),

Often in life we want to avoid hardships, but sometimes those hardships are the very things that help us become better people, closer family members, and more committed Christians. If I had chosen to hold off on having children just because it was difficult, I guess I’d be without any children at present. Looking back, I wouldn’t change one thing and I’m so thankful for the memories I have of God giving grace and strength and direction during dark or lonely hours. My faith was increased as a result and my love for others grew. May God bless, Kelly

By Kay W, August 23, 2011 @ 2:49 am

Dear Kelly, Do you realize that Amanda might possibly have her husband far away, as well as in harm’s way, as she has her next child? She mentioned difficult pregnancies, frequently having to move and not living near relatives. Besides the children, to care for in the best possible way, She has her home to care for singlehandedly, not to mention regular housework, the yard work is hers to do, as is the car maintenance. I know this Kelly, because I lived it as a Navy wife. I am not a person who ‘avoids handships’ but I am very realistic. As a Navy wife, I had 6 children, I wouldn’t give even one of them back, I love them all, but I would never in good conscience advise any other young woman to try it. I forgot to mention that I also worked full time and attended college 3 nights a week so I could get a better job, since my husband’s Navy pay was not enough to support 6 children. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one, my friend. Love and God Bless, Kay

By Gil, August 24, 2011 @ 3:38 pm

Dear Kay,

I don’t believe God calls everyone to have a large family… My advice to couples is to find God’s will for them…. All I can personally do at best is offer opinions or encouragement here or there… But God, on the otherhand, can offer direction, instruction, hope, strength, provision, protection, purpose, and so much more!!! That is why each person needs to learn to walk close to Him and to hear Him!

But concerning difficulties, the old saying rings true: “No pain no gainâ€â€¦ It isoften through difficulties that joys are seen and appreciated! What missionary couldn’t list a long report of sacrifices and hardships, but he rejoices over the fruit of his labor! That is the encouragement I’d like to offer to you and others… The message of not growing weary in well doing! Susannah Wesley had a tremendously hard time raising her family without her husbands help, but we’ve all benefited from the ministry and lives of her sons John and Charles Wesley. I’m sure others are thankful for your endurance in raising your children also, as your children have now had opportunity to impact others. And I’m sure your children are all the more grateful for your labor of love… they must be very proud to you! I wrote this poem in honor of your life of sacrifice. Love, Kelly

Poem (8-23-11)

I worked the rows of corn alone;

I toiled from dawn til dusk.

I worked my fingers to the bone,

Removing the dirt- stained husks.

I wondered if the work would end.

My body ached; dispair set in.

But then I met a precious friend,

The Lord, who gave me hope within.

He changed my troubled view of life

By showing others starving in need.

Thus giving purpose for my strife,

He showed how many my corn could feed.

Sometimes we think we labor in vain.

Sometimes we focus on “poor old me.â€

But when we look beyond our pain,

We can see the fruits in eternity!

By Kay W, August 24, 2011 @ 9:40 pm

First of all I thank God for giving me the energy to do what I needed to do. To quote Shakespeare, “All’s well that ends well†because by the grace of God my children turned out well and for the past 10 years my life has been wonderful. Not everyone gets that fortunate. One thing for sure, when you find yourself in a position to have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you certainly appreciate and are thankful to God for his blessings. I just leaned that we are expecting our 4th great grandchild near the time when your little one is due. Yet, another blessing! Love and God Bless, Kay

Is it me or is that poem a little condescending?

Oh and this Amanda seems like a bit of a bates/duggar groupie, she askes for advise about convincing her family that it's good for her to have more kids in another post.

[PennySycamore]

So Kelly suggested the Ezzo's book? I never read child care books but isn't that the one that encourages beatings, and other nonsense childrearing like timed feeding?

I'm not sure what the Ezzos have to say about punishment of small children, but their methods and philosophy are quite harsh and not nurturing. And yeah, they're the ones who promote the times feedings of infants that have caused a number of cases of failure-to-thrive in infants. That was so bad that the American Academy of Pediatrics actually came out with a position paper against the Ezzos and their methods.

[OddLittleBird]

Ezzo quotes on punishment of very young children-

"A child knows when he has broken the rules, and his guilt continually reminds him of his violation. Guilt is the reminder of sin. Chastisement (Ezzo's term for spanking) is the price paid to remove the guilt thus [sic] free the child from his burden. If the parents do not remove the guilt, the child lives under the weight of sin. When an offense calls for chastisement, parents should chastise. If they substitute a lesser punishment, the guilt remains, and the child will suppress it. That, in turn, leads to more antisocial behavior." (GKGW p. 212)

"A wooden spoon could possibly break fingers that get in the way, cause vertebral damage if struck too high, or damage skin tissue. Nor should we chastise with a instrument that is too flexible, such as a father's belt, a wire or any whip-like object. However, a somewhat flexible instrument stings without inflicting bone or muscle damage, since the flex itself absorbs much of the shock at contact. If there is no pain, then the instrument is probably too light or too flexible."

Nasty stuff. :(

"75 to 80 percent of all spankings will take place between 14 and 40 months. The last 20 percent will come sporadically over the next ten years" (i.e. when a child is around 13 1/2 years of age) (Ezzo & Ezzo, 1997, p. 218).

[Austin]

So Kelly suggested the Ezzo's book? I never read child care books but isn't that the one that encourages beatings, and other nonsense childrearing like timed feeding?

I don't know about beatings, but they espouse an extremely rigid view of baby care. Their view is that the infant should fit into the parents' lives, not the other way around. A number of infants have experienced "failure to thrive" with their parents following Ezzo crap. Leaving an infant alone to cry for extended periods and not feeding despite the infant being hungry just because it's "not time" is just wrong.