homeschoolers allowed to join public h.s sports team...

[Coconut Flan]

It still seems to be controversial. Our state has had such a mix of programs going for years that it doesn't seem to be much an issue here any more.

Interesting article: http://www.aasa.org/SchoolAdministrator ... x?id=15316

[charizbarb]

The religious ones are quite literally trying to take over the world, or at least the USA, and are making great strides at that. I don't want to give them any more inroads.

That's hardly the fault of the children involved. It still feels like punishing the kids to punish the parents. In any case, saying that no homeschooled kid can be on a public school sports team because they might be religious is pretty awful. I know fundies complain about ~persecution all the time but this would genuinely be discrimination and against children, no less.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

That's hardly the fault of the children involved. It still feels like punishing the kids to punish the parents. In any case, saying that no homeschooled kid can be on a public school sports team because they might be religious is pretty awful. I know fundies complain about ~persecution all the time but this would genuinely be discrimination and against children, no less.

If any rule was put in I doubt it would talk about religious or not, but rather just say you take school as a package - either you attend academic classes and have a chance at the sports teams, or you do neither. If some place wanted a rule like that I don't think it would cause a problem, because anyone is of course free to put their kids in the public schools, so it's not locking anyone out.

I went to school in a completely different environment where homeschooling was utterly unheard of anyway so don't really have a strong feeling about it either way maybe, but in the schools I went to, sports and club participation was a requirement of all students (you can pick your club, but you're required to be in one, and they meet daily after school) and it would have been very strange for someone who wasn't part of the regular school to attend the clubs, but again, it was a different world. Heck we went to school on Saturdays too back then.

[YPestis]

From a policy standpoint, I can't find a reason to ban homeschoolers from using public school resources for extra-curriculars and sports. Yeah, there is something hypocritical about parents who don't support the public schools yet still want to utilize its resources...however, that is neither here or there.

In general, I can see allowing homeschoolers to integrate into the system as a good thing. The only negative is, as one poster pointed out, if an aggressive sports nut parent with a failing kid decided to pull their kid out of school to "homeschool" so to allow the child to continue participation. It can be used as a loophole for failing students. I believe homeschoolers should be tested to ensure they are learning and anyone who want join the sports team or clubs must abide by the requirements that the public school students are subjected to. Otherwise, allowing them to join the school activities would expose them to more people, get all the benefits of the extra-curricular activity, and provide them with adult guidance outside of their parents'. As others pointed out, most fundies would avoid these opportunities. Can you imagine the Maxwells or Duggars letting their kids join the local soccer team or Spanish club? Laughable. :~D

[NurseNell]

I also don't think homeschooled kids should have to be tested to ensure they're at the same level academically as the public-schooled kids on the team because a) I don't see what one has to do with the other and b) the poorly-performing students at the public school are still presumably able to participate in school sports. Homeschooled or even unschooled kids aren't going to give the public school kids Stupid Cooties.

Poorly performing students cannot participate in sports or many extracurricular activities. One of the values of playing a team sport is that you have to keep your grades up. It's a good incentive for students who might otherwise not try to do as well. I don't know about band and music but I believe it's true there too. Students who are special needs have adapted sports so they are not excluded. But regular ed students must maintain a certain grade average.

I don't have a problem with home schooled students participating in any activities offered by the public schools in their district. They would have to abide by the same rules. In our district homeschoolers have always been allowed to participate. Some students do some of their classes at the public school, usually in the sciences and foreign language. Their parents pay taxes and have every right to take advantage of the offerings in the public schools.

[charizbarb]

Poorly performing students cannot participate in sports or many extracurricular activities. One of the values of playing a team sport is that you have to keep your grades up. It's a good incentive for students who might otherwise not try to do as well. I don't know about band and music but I believe it's true there too. Students who are special needs have adapted sports so they are not excluded. But regular ed students must maintain a certain grade average.

I don't have a problem with home schooled students participating in any activities offered by the public schools in their district. They would have to abide by the same rules. In our district homeschoolers have always been allowed to participate. Some students do some of their classes at the public school, usually in the sciences and foreign language. Their parents pay taxes and have every right to take advantage of the offerings in the public schools.

It seems completely bizarre and counter-productive to insist on minimum grades to be able to participate in extracurricular activities - surely the point of them is that they're not academic activities but hobbies? A student who doesn't do well academically but is talented at sports or music etc should surely be encouraged in those areas rather than not able to participate. I think the problem for me is that poor grades do not necessarily mean a student isn't trying, just that their talents lie elsewhere - and that should be okay. Not that they shouldn't have to continue with academic studies, of course they should, but I think it's a mistake to view extracurricular activities as just more school.

[charizbarb]

If any rule was put in I doubt it would talk about religious or not, but rather just say you take school as a package - either you attend academic classes and have a chance at the sports teams, or you do neither. If some place wanted a rule like that I don't think it would cause a problem, because anyone is of course free to put their kids in the public schools, so it's not locking anyone out.

I went to school in a completely different environment where homeschooling was utterly unheard of anyway so don't really have a strong feeling about it either way maybe, but in the schools I went to, sports and club participation was a requirement of all students (you can pick your club, but you're required to be in one, and they meet daily after school) and it would have been very strange for someone who wasn't part of the regular school to attend the clubs, but again, it was a different world. Heck we went to school on Saturdays too back then.

At my school relatively few students were part of any kind of club and they definitely weren't daily. I was in Environment Club, Science Club and Library Club but it was once a week at lunchtime for each club. There were the sports teams too of course but they were pretty much just the students who did well in PE anyway and I think it was more of a case of the teachers picking who they wanted on the teams. There was definitely no kind of compulsory sports team requirement.

[Deleted03]

@ Sophie and Charizbarb--

I know it's not a perfect analogy, I was just trying to illustrate that everyone pays taxes for things they don't use or have access to.

This idea just feels hypocritical to me, at the most innocent, and I worry about it being used as a wedge to get even more religious bull inserted into public schools. I didn't even think about the sports cheating issue.

So do you also believe that someone who qualifies for food stamps, but would rather not take them, is hypocritical when they use any other governmental services?

You can pick and choose, you don't have to take all government provided services to be non-hypocritical....

[Deleted03]

The religious ones are quite literally trying to take over the world, or at least the USA, and are making great strides at that. I don't want to give them any more inroads.

So for you the way to fight a paranoia prone group of people who want to make tons of uneducated kids who will take over the vote and the elected positions by their brilliantness should be banned from public activities? That's not gonna help their paranoia at all... and seriously, I do not think that marginalizing them is the way to win this fight. Trust in other Americans, show them what their thinking involves and win fairly!

I also doubt that many teenagers would be really interested in hearing how they are defrauding and women have to cover up. It might strike the odd teen but abstinence programs have shown their effectiveness time and time again on changing how teens behave. I think that those that are actualy interested may just have had a similar encounter outside of school or in college... I don't think that barring people from activities based on their beliefsi s the way to go.

[ElphabaGalinda]

It seems completely bizarre and counter-productive to insist on minimum grades to be able to participate in extracurricular activities - surely the point of them is that they're not academic activities but hobbies? A student who doesn't do well academically but is talented at sports or music etc should surely be encouraged in those areas rather than not able to participate. I think the problem for me is that poor grades do not necessarily mean a student isn't trying, just that their talents lie elsewhere - and that should be okay. Not that they shouldn't have to continue with academic studies, of course they should, but I think it's a mistake to view extracurricular activities as just more school.

I think the idea of the grades requirements is that if students have poor grades, then extracurricular activities are taking up a lot of their time that they could otherwise be using to study and bring up their grades. Or, as most sports teams at my school practiced 2-3 times a week and occasionally missed class for games, it was a way to ensure that students were balancing their activities with their school work. I was in drama, and that took up a lot of my time (probably 2 hours a day when I was in the play). And another year I was in choir we had to occasionally miss class for competitions. So I can see how it might be difficult for someone to keep up with their school work with such a commitment. It has nothing to do with students not trying, or viewing extracurricular activities as school, it has to do with viewing school as a priority and making sure everyone is able to focus on school no matter what they're involved in.

Of course the schools around here that I've heard about have ridiculously low grade requirements for extra curriculars (you needed a 65% average and can't be failing anything). Anyone who isn't educated at the SOTDRT should be able to meet that, and if they can't, then they really should be focussing on accademics for the time being. I've never heard of not having grade requirements for extracurriculars, but I guess in smaller areas it might make sense. But if I had a child who couldn't meet those low requirements, i'd want them to focus on studying.

[snarkbillie]

We have this here. My secular homeschooled kids do go to orchestra and band. All of the other homeschooled kids who take part (there aren't many) are also secular. None of the fundie/fundie-lite homeschoolers take part in it. Did you know that the band uniforms are "immodest?", yep it's true. They all wear pants, even the girls!

I don't really see a huge problem. Of course I'm probably some kind of "hypocrite" because when I figured out that my kid needed speech therapy I did use the public school's speech pathologist who was available to use for free to any kid living in the district. I'm such a terrible mother.

Also, even though it's not required my kids do the standardized tests at the school with the other kids. Mostly because I like knowing what they get on them.

[charizbarb]

I think the idea of the grades requirements is that if students have poor grades, then extracurricular activities are taking up a lot of their time that they could otherwise be using to study and bring up their grades. Or, as most sports teams at my school practiced 2-3 times a week and occasionally missed class for games, it was a way to ensure that students were balancing their activities with their school work. I was in drama, and that took up a lot of my time (probably 2 hours a day when I was in the play). And another year I was in choir we had to occasionally miss class for competitions. So I can see how it might be difficult for someone to keep up with their school work with such a commitment. It has nothing to do with students not trying, or viewing extracurricular activities as school, it has to do with viewing school as a priority and making sure everyone is able to focus on school no matter what they're involved in.

Of course the schools around here that I've heard about have ridiculously low grade requirements for extra curriculars (you needed a 65% average and can't be failing anything). Anyone who isn't educated at the SOTDRT should be able to meet that, and if they can't, then they really should be focussing on accademics for the time being. I've never heard of not having grade requirements for extracurriculars, but I guess in smaller areas it might make sense. But if I had a child who couldn't meet those low requirements, i'd want them to focus on studying.

Ah I understand if activities take up that much time - over here (I'm in the UK) school sports teams wouldn't practice that much generally. Most extra-curricular activities here seem a lot more casual than in the US, they're really just for fun and not so much for competition. Also academic progress isn't really measured by an overall average here, but by individual subjects and by the last 3 years or so of school (remembering that kids leave school at 16 here) it's about preparing to take GCSEs (end of school qualifications in individual subjects, we don't graduate high school as such here because in theory you could get no GCSEs and still be able to leave school).

[CynicMom]

My understanding is that schools get state and federal funding based on the number of students attending. If homeschoolers participate in extra-curricular activities it would be nice if they counted towards increased funding for the public school in some way.

[mnb357]

Plenty of homeschoolers aren't even religious, and even if they are....they're playing sports. I'm not seeing how religion could get in there in the first place.

Here's my district's take on it: Public school/services are there at no cost for all students who live within the district. The only qualifying factor is proof of residency. As a parent, I have the choice to either accept or decline services.

Now, here's an anecdote for you, Glasscowcatcher: My older child needed minimal speech therapy prior to kindergarten. We opted to use the school's therapist rather than seek private therapy. Why? When visiting the private clinic the pediatrician referred us to, we discovered that our school subcontracted to the same clinic, and provided us with the very same therapist we would have seen at the private clinic. She told us she is paid by the district no matter how many students she sees on her days there...10 or 2, and strongly suggested we avail ourselves of her services through the school, rather than pay the co-pay, and make the twice weekly 25 mile drive to the clinic.

Come the end of first grade, we decided his speech was perfectly intelligible, and opted to end therapy. Our son didn't like being pulled out of class for the therapy, it bored him, and he didn't like the new therapist. Holy guacamole!!!! Getting him OUT of the services (an IEP) was worse than trying to get out of a book club. I was beyond frustrated at the reams of paperwork, and finally enlisted the help of the principal. The principal was very candid, and told us that one of the reasons it was so hard is because the school receives funding for each child with an IEP. Once they get them in, they hate to see them go, to the point that they will create a program, as they were with my son, for an otherwise "capable of exiting" child.

As it happens, the school also receives funding for every child who participates in extracurricular activities, be they homeschooled or conventionally schooled. That is to say, my aforementioned son, who is now homeschooled, will be taking science at the local middle school. As such, that school gets a part of funding provided from the state/Fed for his presence in the school. If he wanted to join orchestra, he would be more than welcome to do so, because guess what? More funding. Sports aren't available until grade 7, but again, should he qualify in terms of athletic ability, he would be welcome to join...encouraged, even, as again, there is a financial gain to the school for his presence.

I homeschool some of my kids for many reasons, one of them being, what you, Glasscowcatcher, are so afraid of...what I like to call fundie creep. Our district is one which uses those Gothard written "character traits." That's fodder for another thread. Gaaaarghhh!

As far as likening it to the military, you can't. The military is funded by taxes, yes, but it is there to protect ALL U.S. citizens and legal residents, even tourists, regardless of their beliefs, or possible delinquent tax status. I daresay they would do it proudly. (The benefit of an all volunteer military, doncha' know.)

[fakepigtails73]

The reason why I started this thread was due to what I perceive as big differences between homeschooling in the US, western provinces such as Alberta and B.C, and my home of Québec.

Here we do have homeschoolers, although the % is minuscule. There are no statistics kept on the numbers of students that do homeschooling, and their lobby seems to be very unorganized. In my circle of friends. there is only one family that decided to homeschool their daughter. They only homeschooled her from grade 1 to grade 6. From grade 7 onwards she went to the local public school where she ended up on the honour roll. Now she's about to enter her 2nd year of CÉGEP (our pre-university college) in sciences, with a goal of becoming a chemistry research tech. Her parents decided to homeschool as a "dare", to try something different. They def. were not fundies. At 12 she had enough and asked her parents to go to the local school; at that age you tend to want to spend more time with your peers than with Mom and Dad.

It seems that in the US the "loudest" advocates of homeschoolings are families that choose to do it for religious reasons. Non-fundie homeschooling parents seem to flow under the radar, so to speak.

I'd be interested in knowing what % of American homeschoolers are fundies...

edited for typos, once again... :whistle:

[clibbyjo]

Being in the homeschool world for 11 years now, I would guess 90% of homeschoolers are fundie/fundie lite. The secular movement has grown over the past few years, but we are way outnumbered.

P.s. Homeschooling does become a choice for many of the secular kids as they get older.I do not know of any secular homeschoolers who force their kids to stay home when they want to go to school. My boys have no desire to ever go to school,where my daughter wants to go for high school. If she still wants to go when she is a little older, she can go.

[snarkbillie]

The secular homeschoolers in my area just aren't as "organized" but I think we are about equal or coming close to the religious ones. We don't gather together for "character class" or stuff like that so it's hard to see us. I'm a member of a new secular co-op. Adults and kids combined there are about 150 of us. We don't really have a common banner to organize under though so it's harder to draw people in. When I was fundie-lite we all used the same BS science curriculum so it was easier to be like "all the ones doing this book we're meeting on Fridays" but in secular homeschooling we span from radical unschooling (yuck,imho) to "all their classes are online through Stanford" so we really only get together for social things and homeschoolers that are secular don't have a ton of time for "social stuff" on top of all their actual studying and extra curricular and sports and hobbies and etc.

[clibbyjo]

The secular homeschoolers in my area just aren't as "organized" but I think we are about equal or coming close to the religious ones. We don't gather together for "character class" or stuff like that so it's hard to see us. I'm a member of a new secular co-op. Adults and kids combined there are about 150 of us. We don't really have a common banner to organize under though so it's harder to draw people in. When I was fundie-lite we all used the same BS science curriculum so it was easier to be like "all the ones doing this book we're meeting on Fridays" but in secular homeschooling we span from radical unschooling (yuck,imho) to "all their classes are online through Stanford" so we really only get together for social things and homeschoolers that are secular don't have a ton of time for "social stuff" on top of all their actual studying and extra curricular and sports and hobbies and etc.

Our groups are like that too. The fundie groups have thousands of members and they run their enrichment classes like a Christian school. They have 20 week semesters where the kids go 2-3 times a week.Their classes are are school type classes, bible,creation,english,etc...Nothing fun, which is the point of secular enrichment classes. The fundies rent out old schools and huge churches and they fill them and have waiting lists. There is one secular group here and their classes are very small. Our group ran classes for 2 years,but as the kids get older their interests become so different it is hard to plan classes that a large group. WE now just set up stuff for kids with the same interests and the goups are much smaller.

[fakepigtails73]

I wonder how secular homeschoolers that join their local homeschooling association or lobby group are treated by the fundies that tend to dominate such org.? Are they told outright that it's a faith-based group, or do the fundies pretend they don't care because "there is strength in numbers" and they need all the help they can get in their lobbying efforts? If fundies make up close to 90% of h.s. families in some states as written in a post upthread, then it must be pretty hard for the secular, hippie homeschooling moms to find fellow-minded families nearby...

Stupid question, I know!

I appologize for my less than stellar English writing today...I'm more tired than usual and I wish that I could nap!

eta: that'll teach me not to read the last posts before posting a new one! Got part of my answer from the last 2 posts, gracias! :shhh:

[emmiedahl]

Our groups are like that too. The fundie groups have thousands of members and they run their enrichment classes like a Christian school. They have 20 week semesters where the kids go 2-3 times a week.Their classes are are school type classes, bible,creation,english,etc...Nothing fun, which is the point of secular enrichment classes. The fundies rent out old schools and huge churches and they fill them and have waiting lists. There is one secular group here and their classes are very small. Our group ran classes for 2 years,but as the kids get older their interests become so different it is hard to plan classes that a large group. WE now just set up stuff for kids with the same interests and the goups are much smaller.

I actually belonged to the fundie group when we homeschooled because they would pool money to get good instructors and it came out super cheap. In our fundie group you could choose what classes you took, so my children took subjects like Irish step dancing and Spanish. I also belonged to the Catholic one and the kids took Latin and a few other less religious things. If the fundie groups will let you lurk on the outskirts of the group and you can mitigate the insanity, I rather recommend it. There were not enough secular homeschoolers in my area so it was really hard to find people using the same curriculum and philosophies as I did, I had to branch out.

However, the Attachment Parenting play days were the best things ever. We started doing them informally just as a support for the hippie homeschoolers in my area. We would all bring food and laptops, the kids played and had a few organized activities while the moms shared work at home tips. Best families I ever met and there were none of the behavioral issues you see in the fundie groups.

[VaSportsMom]

I considered homeschooling my 12 year old this year and a big positive was knowing he could go to the school each day to continue band as well as attend school field trips. Religion played no part in my 'desire' to keep him home, I'm atheist, but it was for medical reasons. B had his gallbladder out last November and has suffered from tons of stomach probs since. He missed 20 days before the surgery last year while the doctors tried to find the source of his probs and another 17 after. If the absences begin to rack up this year I will follow through on the plan to homeschool. B is a gifted student in a few AP classes but it's very hard to keep up when you miss so many days. At home I could work around his pain on a much more flexible schedule.

Our local high school even offers a virtual option so the children can stay home but take the same classes as their peers and walk with their class for graduation. There are a lot of Fundy homeschoolers in our area because the local Christian school only goes to grade 8 but many of them seem to be moving towards the virtual school now, which is great for the school system since they count toward federal funding.

[YPestis]

It seems completely bizarre and counter-productive to insist on minimum grades to be able to participate in extracurricular activities - surely the point of them is that they're not academic activities but hobbies? A student who doesn't do well academically but is talented at sports or music etc should surely be encouraged in those areas rather than not able to participate. I think the problem for me is that poor grades do not necessarily mean a student isn't trying, just that their talents lie elsewhere - and that should be okay. Not that they shouldn't have to continue with academic studies, of course they should, but I think it's a mistake to view extracurricular activities as just more school.

I'm not sure where you live from but in the US public (and many private) schools, this is standard school policy.

The academic requirement to enter into these activities is pretty low....we are not talking about kids getting B's and C's, a 2.0 GPA is a kid who is FAILING classes. Plus, many of these activities require a ton of time. Band practice can last something like 2 hrs per day. Sports and music groups may travel on weekends, eating up the entire two days, and they practice for hours every day during school days. Failing students in most schools can be offered extra tutoring or classes. A kid is not allowed to defer their failing math grades in lieu of their weekly soccer meet-ups.

The school's first priority is to educate. The child's first duty is to their academics, not to band or Latin club. Your analogy doesn't work because in Real Life, if a person is on company suspension/probation, they would be not be allowed to join in company ventures and activities because their work comes first.

Also, most schools (and parents) see extra-curriculars as "extra" to the core things. Yes, it's great if Johnny is very talented in violin, that doesn't negate his need to know a bit of US history. Frankly, if a kid is struggling so much that they can't make a 2.0 GPA, it doesn't just mean a "kid's talent lay elsewhere", it means either they aren't spending enough time in their school work or they have a learning issue. There's a difference between a kid whose just not talented and kid's whose not learning.

[dawn9476]

On paper, it sounds good that homeschoolers will be getting some sort of interaction with kids the same age. I am just afraid of a homeschoer getting a spot on a team that should have went to a kid that attends the school.

[tacky]

I wonder how secular homeschoolers that join their local homeschooling association or lobby group are treated by the fundies that tend to dominate such org.?

Here we have separate groups. Our support group is secular. The first year I homeschooled I went to a homeschool support group meeting hosted by a group called CHEO. I stupidly did not check to see what the acronym stood for, I just saw "New homeschoolers welcome" and showed up. In shorts and a tank top. Everyone else was in a denim jumper and some wore headcoverings. CHEO stands for Christian Home Educators Ohio. Oops. Nobody talked to me or looked my way for more than a few seconds, which was fine. I didn't even stay for half of the meeting.

Our school district doesn't allow homeschoolers to participate in sports or part-time enrollment or anything like that. My kids have all done community based teams like soccer, swimming, t-ball, etc. I wouldn't mind if the school allowed participation, and it would be fine with me to use test scores to determine eligibility. I have them tested every year anyway.

[Olive Plant]

I see it more as: I am paying for this cake but I only want a slice.

If it were bad for children, I would be against it. But it is overwhelmingly good for them. I do see the irony that someone who does not deem the school fit to teach English sees it as the perfect place to learn soccer.

I do think they should have to maintain certain academic standards. However, the homeschoolers who partake of school sports in my experience are the ones homeschooling for academic reasons and not religious ones. So the children are held to a pretty high bar.

I have a friend who homeschools whose child has an IEP with her local school district and plans her curriculum for the child in question based on this. He receives speech therapy from the school. There is a high level of accountability in going this route; her son is evaluated for progress the same way a public schooler would be. I think it is such a win-win for everyone involved. When she needed help she could not provide, she turned to the school and they helped her work out a plan for giving her son the best education possible.

I have no idea what the rules are for where I am currently, but in the town where I grew up, you could join sports teams as a homeschooled kid. It was a small town, so if you were athletic, you actually had a pretty good chance of being on varsity. When I was there, a couple of homeschooled kids were two or three sport players, and they were good enough to help take their team to state in at least one event. I got the impression that they were homechooled more for academic reasons than religious reasons, although they were religious. The parents. The kids blended into the public school crowd pretty well in every way, and at least one of them was sleeping with his girlfriend.