What about those provider sons?

[YPestis]

We've seen fundie girls who are unmarried at the ripe fundie age of 25 or 30. Their shelf-life appears pretty short since fundie girls' biggest attributes are her youth, fertility and looks. So what about the guys? If we go by traditional gender roles, their biggest attribute should be their ability to provide. We know fundies acknowledge the importance of being providers (see Maxwell conferences on training sons to be providers). Is there a ranking of desirability of fundie men too? Is it based on their ability to provide? In other words, do fundie girls look at a guy's occupation and income and prioritize the guys just as fundie guys prioritize girls' age and looks?

What happens to guys who engage in less income producing jobs? Isn't Ben Botkins a composer by trade? I doubt he's bringing in the big bucks with his music (by nature of his job), but he got married fairly young, and to a pretty girl from a well off family. Do fundie men who live in reduced circumstances generally have a harder time finding a wife?

Thinking back, it appears many fundie men prefer running their own businesses. That can be hit and miss in terms of income and stability. Perhaps most fundie girls just cross their fingers and hope their chosen man will bring in enough money to keep them off the streets.

[flojo]

I don't know, it's interesting. I suspect owning their own business is high.

Ben Botkin was hot property regardless, by virtue of his last name.

[jockosmom]

If I was a fundy girl looking for a headship, I'd definitely be looking at the income level and income-producing ability of the candidates. As a fundy wife I'm going to have my hands full with taking care of kids, cooking, cleaning, and running the house, not to mention doing all that while pregnant half the time. My headship is going to have to have a steady income from somewhere. Also, I think I'd be looking for assertive personality traits in that regard - a man who can get things done and isn't afraid of working. I don't think I'd go for a pastor or church leader though.

Watching the Maxwell boys tear through that house is rather impressive and if I were a fundy girl that's the type of work ethic I would like to see. The ability to be handy around the house and the get-up-and-go to do it. While I love my hubby dearly, I can hardly get his ass off the couch to even change a light bulb that's in an awkward place for me to reach. :lol:

[BabyFullOfSin]

You're assuming that the girls have choice

[JesusPony]

I think this is the flaw in the Quiverfull/fundie movement: they've raised their children to be children. The oldest "boys" don't have the life skills to be a father, a husband and a provider. Every life choice has to be approved by Mommy and Daddy, up to and including marriage (if it happens). Most of their lives have been spent on the family compound. There aren't going to be many assertive, confident males coming out of an environment like that. On top of that, a lot of them seem to think that other families' kids -- even inside the fundie movement -- aren't good enough for their own precious snowflakes. Every family is too weird for every other family. Look at the Duggars, Bates, the creepy Arndts...The lifestyle cannot prosper when they're raising a generation of 50-year-old virgins.

[NJMom]

Well, it seems that the parents are so controlling about everything that their adult kids do that these "adults",so to speak, cannot make decisions for themselves. I predict that in a couple of generations, the amount of exteme fundies will probably be less than half of what it is today. Between many of these "kids" never marrying or having families of their own, and others who are brave enough to totally leave the lifestyle, it will eventually wind down.

[Bethella]

Deciding on a husband based on his future earning potential is not TRUSTING IN THE LORD!!!!!!!11!!!!!1

[punkiepie]

If I was a fundy girl looking for a headship, I'd definitely be looking at the income level and income-producing ability of the candidates. As a fundy wife I'm going to have my hands full with taking care of kids, cooking, cleaning, and running the house, not to mention doing all that while pregnant half the time. My headship is going to have to have a steady income from somewhere. Also, I think I'd be looking for assertive personality traits in that regard - a man who can get things done and isn't afraid of working. I don't think I'd go for a pastor or church leader though.

Watching the Maxwell boys tear through that house is rather impressive and if I were a fundy girl that's the type of work ethic I would like to see. The ability to be handy around the house and the get-up-and-go to do it. While I love my hubby dearly, I can hardly get his ass off the couch to even change a light bulb that's in an awkward place for me to reach. :lol:

I am rather loathe to compliment the Maxwells on anything regarding child rearing, but it does appear that the "kids" all have a very strong work ethic. I think part of that is because they wake up so freaking early, don't go to school, dont read books or watch TV, don't have friends, and don't do anything socially- that they have to fill the hours in the day or else they would be bored to death. (maybe that's why they have the death worship !) And they do that OneTonOnRamp, which might actually be a good thing because I bet it gives fundie boys who aren't allowed to go to college, a chance to learn something kinda useful. Not that it's a great educational platform, but its better than nothing, might help them in the future, and certainly more useful than paying $100 to learn about Reforming Food or $80 to "learn" about Christians and D-day.

For other fundie girls looking for their lover, I think the more money that her family has, the less interested in she is in his ability to provide for a family- because her husband can always go to work for her father. A la Peter Bradrick. I mean, look at how Scott Brown essentially pays for Peter Pan Bradrick and the rest of the Man Boys related to him, to live a lifestyle of Manly Excursions and playing dress up while their wives pump out babies and stay home to to take care of the kids!

[NerdyHil]

I think this is the flaw in the Quiverfull/fundie movement: they've raised their children to be children. The oldest "boys" don't have the life skills to be a father, a husband and a provider. Every life choice has to be approved by Mommy and Daddy, up to and including marriage (if it happens). Most of their lives have been spent on the family compound. There aren't going to be many assertive, confident males coming out of an environment like that. On top of that, a lot of them seem to think that other families' kids -- even inside the fundie movement -- aren't good enough for their own precious snowflakes. Every family is too weird for every other family. Look at the Duggars, Bates, the creepy Arndts...The lifestyle cannot prosper when they're raising a generation of 50-year-old virgins.

Excellent point. These families are crippling their children socially and developmentally under the guise of protection. I'm noticing a change in the language use of some of these children still in "single service". There is less of the use of the term "when I get married" to "if I get married".

[YPestis]

Well, the problem with second generation fundies running their own businesses is that they tend to run fundie-specific business like religious conferences and publishing homeschooling books. As a group, that is not sustainable. Some fundies must have real jobs from the "secular" world that caters to nonfundies to bring in money for these fundie business. Otherwise, there will be no money left for conferences and books, both of which can be expensive.

Small businesses also have a high failure rate. Many of these fundie guys will just not succeed. They may not have the temperament or skill or be too restricted in what they do to make money. Then what? Welfare? Go back to daddy? Even the Maxwell kids, with their work ethic and frugal living are not sustained on fundie-only business. The oldest males also do IT work for nonfundie people. I doubt any of them can survive on conferences and books alone. Even the Amish changed their occupation when farming became unsustainable. They started catering to tourists and running shops. It makes me wonder what these young fundie men will do as they start cranking out babies and struggling to run a failing business.

[erunerune]

If I were a fundie girl stuck looking for a fundie husband, I would prioritize "quality health insurance" above pretty much anything else material a godly "provider" could bring to the table. If you are planning on popping out as many kids as possible as a fundie woman, your life (and those of your kids of course) could literally depend on regular, relatively convenient access to proper medical treatment.

Of course, teh ebil insurance basically means you don't trust God, and it could also indicate that you have undesirable Socialist leanings, which clearly come from Satan. However, that Samaritan Scam Non-Ministry just isn't going to cut it.

All of this is moot, though, since the typical self-employed fundie guy probably has minimal (if any) coverage, and anyway, he would rather display his manliness and provider-dom by hanging sheet rock in the home *he* bought to create an imbalanced power dynamic from the get-go. Who needs health insurance when you can pick out the paint & tile colors yourself??!!11???!!!11!!

[Lala29]

In the fundie world, it seems like names matter the most, in terms of finding a fundie husband. As in real life, the 'royalty' has enough clout/standing to pull in money, if need be. One of the Duggar boys deciding to hold a talk on 'manliness' would get a lot more interest than any 'common' fundie man's talk.

I think outside of the royal members, most fundies are used to abject poverty. So even if a fundie son's income prospects are bad, it's not like the girls are used to a much higher economic situation.

What I find sad/interesting is that in many, many other patriarchal areas of the world, a lot is invested to better their sons' chances in life, either by getting them in a trade/paying for extra education. Only with the developed world's fundies is shunning education for their sons a big thing.

[bananacat]

Honestly, if I were a fundie girl, I'd marry whoever Daddy picked out for me. I wouldn't get much say, except if I were in a liberal enough household I might at least have true veto power (and not just nominal veto power that I would know deep down I could never use), but then I'd run the risk of no one else asking, or the next person asking might be in even worse shape. The only thing that matters for a fundie boy is to be able to impress some girl's dad. Her opinion has nothing to do with it. If the dad is sensible (which is unlikely), then he would care about a steady job. If the dad is a typical Patriarch God-botherer, he would be impressed by a boy who is so faithful that he refuses to work under anyone else and also trusts God to support him and his future family of 25.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I am rather loathe to compliment the Maxwells on anything regarding child rearing, but it does appear that the "kids" all have a very strong work ethic. I think part of that is because they wake up so freaking early, don't go to school, dont read books or watch TV, don't have friends, and don't do anything socially- that they have to fill the hours in the day or else they would be bored to death. (maybe that's why they have the death worship !)

I just read "Preparing Sons to Provide for a Single Income Family." (Bought used and saved the difference.) Steve Maxwell trains the boys to develop a strong work ethic starting when they're still toddlers. They are assigned simple chores and they "help" Steve whenever he does work around the house. As they grow older, the workload increases and the boys are encouraged to start their own businesses and save the money to purchase a house debt free. Sports, TV, and most other forms of entertainment are viewed as a waste of time as well as spiritually harmful; they promote negative appetites that will interfere with the boy's future role as a father, husband, and provider. For example, a little boy who plays sports will grow up to be one of those guys who sits on the couch all weekend watching the game when he should be leading his family in their walk with the Lord.

Steve says very little about daughters, although there are a few anecdotes about the Maxwell girls. Learning how to use a computer is strongly emphasized in the Maxwell household and Steve mentions how Mary (then four years old) was learning how to draw on the computer. The oldest Maxwell sons were in their early twenties at the time the book was written and they were earning money doing IT work.

I'd read "Keeping Our Children's Hearts" previously. This book wasn't quite so isolationist. Steve mentions college and outside jobs as possibilites for other families, if not for his own. (No outside jobs for teens, though.) The Maxwell boys are also expected to cook and clean, unlike the boys in a lot of Quiverfull families.

I thought this book had some good ideas, although in typical Maxwellian fashion Steve takes everything beyond normal limits. You do have to begin instilling strong work habits in kids (not just boys) when they are young. I know someone who, one day out of the blue, decided that her 16-year-old son needed to stop slacking off in school and learn how to study; her efforts were not successful. I also like the idea of long-range planning for a child's future and how decisions made today might affect a kid when he's fifteen or twenty or thirty-five. But children need ample time to play-- play is the child's real work and that's how they learn. I also disagree with Steve's views on sports. Kids need to learn how to be part of a team, plus the exercise is good for them. It sounds like the oldest Maxwell boys were part of a very competitive baseball league that involved a lot of travel and took up a lot of the family's time, so I can understand why Steve wouldn't want to remain on the kid sport crazy train. (I had the opportunity to witness some insane soccer parents at the park a few weeks ago-- oy!!!) But I see nothing wrong with playing in a more relaxed setting.

[moreorlessnu]

Deciding on a husband based on his future earning potential is not TRUSTING IN THE LORD!!!!!!!11!!!!!1

(Is this where we join in a rousing chorus of "Trust and Obey"?? I've been practicing my nasal passages all day long, and I'm dying to show you.)

[Mela99]

So what happens if son fails to provide? Loses his job, etc?

[YPestis]

So what happens if son fails to provide? Loses his job, etc?

A couple of options. The woman can start a home business and pretend her husband is the actual mastermind. They could beg for money from church, blog readers, parents etc. They may even try gov't welfare if things get really desperate. If things get really, really bad, the woman may even find a job outside the home. Anna T did that when her hubby was unemployed. She is as anti-working mother as you get but she felt compelled to find work because her husband was without a job for so long.

When money starts running low and it looks like kids may starve or family may become homeless, even fundie women are willing to go against "traditional femininity" to support the family. No one is that helpless or stupid. What I really want to know is what any of the Maxwells would do if they had serious financial problems.

[FloraDoraDolly]

So what happens if son fails to provide? Loses his job, etc?

The book doesn't say. I assume the son would be expected to find another job or start a home business.

Or they could go the Shrader route and haul the whole family over to Zambia for an extended mission trip.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The work ethic part of the Maxwell system is probably a pretty good thing.

Problem is, a work ethic is not all you need to be a fully providing adult. You need to be able to make decisions. That's the part I wonder if it might be lacking, given that as others posted upthread too it seems the fundies are raising their children to be innocent children, what with all the extreme sheltering going on and the patriarch having ultimate rule over every little thing.

Edited to add: I should add though that I am not against fun - I think it's important to show kids how to have fun and instill the lesson that you do work FIRST, and then have fun (or drink your beer!) once you've got the day's tasks under control. Some of the extreme "no fun!" stuff being pushed by the Maxwells makes me wonder if they think that any tiny bit of fun is not only "wasting time you could use for religion" but would also lead them down some binge where they'd fall completely off track, or what? Learning to BALANCE work and play is a skill in itself, IMHO.

[Coconut Flan]

Even the contemplative religious orders recognize that. Everyone needs a release now and then. That's part of the problem with extremists of any kind - no balance. They're so afraid of themselves that they have to keep iron fisted control on everything.

[YPestis]

Teri Maxwell have written articles and articles about this false need to have "time to yourself". All you need is read the Bible and have quiet time! You're a selfish mother if you need to take precious time away from family and the Bible.