Vision Forum

[fundies_like_zombies]

Is Vision Forum influencing "mainstream" christianity? Or becoming less of a weird fringe idea?

Just wondering if something like VF and the Botkins that promote this sugar coated view of their beliefs could influence wider Christianity. Not sure how well known VF is in the US or UK.

Sort of like people would think they were only taking the good from the VF materials but it was still influencing them more than they realised. Making stuff like SAHD and patriarchy seem more normal and acceptable.

[snarkbillie]

Fundie stuff is definitely creeping into mainstream churches. My own fairly liberal mainstream church is starting to do Bible studies that bother me quite a bit. I've walked out of a few of them, but not without unloading a whole lot of "THIS IS MISOGYNIST BULLSHIT" ranting. It's insidious. If it gets any worse I'm just going to stop going to church.

[FlorenceHamilton]

The creeping fundamentalism is a huge issue in the US and the passivity of most Americans about it is a true lesson in human nature. At the risk of sounding like chicken little, I do draw a comparison to the rise of Hitler. There are many despotic leaders who could also be paralleled here. It is inaction that allows these kinds of hoorors to happen. Cities all over the country...big cities in prominent places...proudly advertize that they are "Character First" cities. This is Gothard. Focus on the Family has huge, huge political clout.

I know a man who is a Baptist Minister in the south. He is in a large town and has enjoyed much politcal clout. He is a friend of mine. We have never discussed this issue. However, I have always looked as his church website and I have attended services at his church. He has, in recent years backed away from using materials associated with the more fundamentalist fringe. (Even in Baptist leadership.) He is not vocal against them, but he quietly does not promote their agenda. It is hard for him becuase he also has a prominent Evangelical, very conservative Congressman who attends and endows his church. He is what I remember men of the cloth to be like. I know that he and I disagree on many many issues. They never come up when we are together. In the last couple of years, he is beginning to have a problem with power challenges with some of the Junior Clergy who are trying to push him aside because of his moderation. It is causing a lot of stress for him and he has looked at going into a slightly different line of work. He has a love of caring for the truly poor and often speaks of going out and being a Christian rather than being a power monger. Of course, this would really diminish his lifestyle.

Anyway, this aside, I think that many churches are shrugging their shoulders and gradually incorporating more and more fundamentalist beliefs into their congregations. Sometimes they by packets of educational materials that are attractive and convenient. sometimes the welcome a junior pastor who is very enthusiastic and appealing thinking it will draw more young people into the congregation. And I would guess that it is getting harder to even find moderate young junior pastors. Moserately religious folk are not necessarily looking at this sort of career. (Add to that the Baptists still do not allow female pastors.)

The feeling seems to be that "As long as its Christian, it will be ok." Normal Chistian people are not conditioned to mistrust things Christian. Most mainstream, even evangelical Christians do not understand that they are being co-opted inot something else.

[Kaylee]

I think it is, to a degree. For some reason, Voddie Baucham keeps popping up on the edges of my radar among what I would consider more mainstream people and groups. Also, Josh Harris was getting a lot of promotion several years ago and even the more mainstream/contemporary Christian radio stations were promoting his books and courtship and all that.

OTOH, partly because of the internet, I think that a lot of laypeople and many pastors are becoming more aware of some of the fringe groups and ideologies. The problem is that any of the people who discover them first are already leaning towards the more conservative/fundie fringe and introduce them to others in the church like they're a good thing, but more and more people are warning against them and seeing the problems in them too. I had a long conversation a few months ago with a friend who is an IFB pastor, but was not raised IFB. It spun off from talking about the Duggars onto Gothard and IBLP/ATI and VF-styled patriarchy and the whole stay-at-home daughter father-centered ideology that so many people get into. We've also talked about the Roloff homes (like Hepzibah House) and how/why so many people support them and the damage they do in the past. He sees both things as dangerous and ultimately damaging to Christianity as well aas the people who get caught up in them, and he was warned people in his church about both.

[Third]

Yes, I think it's becoming more popular and normal among more typical middle of the road Christians. I think a lot of it has to do with the fear of being 'lukewarm' in ones faith or how one lives as a Christian. The new thing is if you don't follow a certain formula you must not be a strong Christian. A few women [and sometimes their husbands are in on it and they get programs for their kids] I know have ordered Bible Studies from them to 're-affirm' their faith or get back to their faith or 're-commit'.

This also seems to go along with going to church camp.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The feeling seems to be that "As long as its Christian, it will be ok." Normal Chistian people are not conditioned to mistrust things Christian. Most mainstream, even evangelical Christians do not understand that they are being co-opted inot something else.

Agreed. I think the creeping fundamentalism is possibly more noticeable to people who aren't Christian to start with, since the entire thing from the get-go is already alien. It's already obvious how much Christianity influences the general culture (mostly benignly, via the culture and "stories we all know" and literature and the rest, that's fine) and so it's extra absurd to hear the claims from the fundies that they are being persecuted and that religion has somehow been forced out of the public sphere. Let them move somewhere that is explicitly NOT Christian-background (and so the general flavors overlaying secularism there don't come from Christianity, even) and then they'll appreciate their insider status in the US.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yes, I think it's becoming more popular and normal among more typical middle of the road Christians. I think a lot of it has to do with the fear of being 'lukewarm' in ones faith or how one lives as a Christian. The new thing is if you don't follow a certain formula you must not be a strong Christian. A few women [and sometimes their husbands are in on it and they get programs for their kids] I know have ordered Bible Studies from them to 're-affirm' their faith or get back to their faith or 're-commit'.

This also seems to go along with going to church camp.

Also this too. You can see the same dynamics in the "slide to the right" going on in various Jewish circles too (just read around various forums, where it seems to be discussed more openly than the Christian equivalent) - there's a sentiment that when a group meets, it needs to use "least common denominator" rules so as to not alienate anyone. But then underlying it, there's the idea that more secular or "lefty" people can put up with a stricter environment for a little while, but the reverse is absolutely not true, so you get this "if we meet, the most right-wing rules will be applied." Underlying THAT, of course, is the idea that the "most faithful" expression of religion is the one with the most strict interpretation of rules. You can complain that people are too lax, but not that they are too strict (though now people ARE starting to speak out about that, and IMHO it's a good thing). But yeah, so hide the women photos, you can deal without seeing women in a magazine but those super-religious can't deal the other way. Etc. That then becomes mainstream, so that if a publication shows a woman they're now making some sort of statement and people won't take the magazine because heavens what will the neighbors think.

On the Christian side, you'll see people being shamed for being "cafeteria Christians" and church programs criticized for being too "seeker-friendly," where they try to appeal to the unsaved so much that all the content is supposedly lost. Christian rock music at youth group meetings is a popular target.

Even in secular business you can find it, they want to move product so they pander to the people with the most restrictive requirements. To avoid controversy, don't push gender boundaries in a show, etc. Things that are "groundbreaking" in TV often aren't so out there in the real world but the TV producers constantly try to play it safe, because they don't want people (often fundies) calling in to complain.

[tropaka]

The fact that creepy Kirk Cameron can get a spot on Piers Morgan to promote his horseshit is enough for me to see that fundamentalism is more accepted/in the limelight.

[Coconut Flan]

What was considered kooky and "out there" thirty years ago has definitely gained more mainstream acceptance. People used to have a lot of raised eyebrows over parents who refused to let their children watch TV or go to movies and now instead of raised eyebrows there is a lot of head nodding.

I'm not defending TV watching just that's a part of it and one of the ways the fundamentalists begin a conversation or make inroads with people.

[Librul]

Official Catholicism is definitely becoming more fundy, more patriarchal and more rigidly conservative. The newly ordained priests and the seminarians currently in formation are, across the boards, more conservative and more clerical/patriarchal than they were even ten years ago. The blogosphere is filled with ultra conservative, angry Catholics, out to "cleanse" the Church of progressive, feminist influences.

The conservative, fundy movement crosses denomination lines.

[snarkbillie]

I had an example. I just remembered that they were giving out some shitty book about a princess and her first kiss at church for Valentine's day a few years back. I didn't give it to my kids, it was all about how the princess wanted to be so pure that she didn't give her first kiss away because if she did then she would be less valuable to her future husband. I was quite annoyed that this was being handed out to kids without talking to the parents first. I went to the woman who headed up the thing and she was all "oh, isn't courting romantic?!" um...no it's not romantic it's disgusting. That's when I started stepping back to really consider what was going on in my church.

[breadprincess]

My mom left the Lutheran church that our whole family was baptized in and attended for 30 years because of a new, fundie-lite pastor. When I was taking confirmation classes as a middle schooler he extolled the virtues of beating your children with belts, how all businesses in the US (even ones owned or frequented by non-Christians) should be forced by the government to close on Sundays, brought in a cop and had him "arrest" one of the kids as a "surprise", etc. He was all Hellfire and brimstone, whereas the Pastor we had all loved, who had retired before the fundie pastor came, emphasized love, service, and compassion for others. I started having panic attacks whenever I stepped foot in the building I was practically raised in, and my parents decided to switch to the local UCC church after the new pastor tried to turn our ELCA church into an "evangelical non-denominational" church. Our retired pastor is a member of and preaches frequently at the UCC church, the regular pastor is an awesome and spunky woman, and instead of sin and death the congregation focuses on Christ's love and how we can improve the world/our lives with it. I'm a Mormon now, but I attend Christmas Eve services with my mom at the UCC church and sing for their choir/occasionally sing solos for the services (most of my elementary school teacher and family friends are in the choir). I'm glad my family got out when they did, because after that thing got REALLY fundie-lite (they had anti-abortion services and Bible studies for example, something that the previous pastor had NEVER brought up).

[Cran]

Official Catholicism is definitely becoming more fundy, more patriarchal and more rigidly conservative. The newly ordained priests and the seminarians currently in formation are, across the boards, more conservative and more clerical/patriarchal than they were even ten years ago. The blogosphere is filled with ultra conservative, angry Catholics, out to "cleanse" the Church of progressive, feminist influences.

The conservative, fundy movement crosses denomination lines.

I agree. WHile the actual teachings of the church did not change much and can be applied in a more or less strict fashion, the seminarians I know are for the most part very conservative in the worst sense of the word. And often also very full of themselves. There are always exceptions, but that is the vibe I get, and I spent a lot of time at the local seminary (connected witht he university I am at).

[m0drnmoonlight]

I'm Armenian Orthodox (similar to Greek/Russian Orthodox) and I really haven't seen any real evidence of fundie qualities seeping in. Granted, I haven't really attended church much in the past few years, but when I have been, I haven't noticed anything really extreme.

Sometimes, it just comes down to who's in charge. Our old priest was a total jackass who was homophobic and incredibly Anti-Semetic, but his views didn't affect what was going on in church and it didn't mean the entire congregation held his views either. As a matter of fact, that coupled with him being a real jerk (my mom ran the Sunday School at the time and he treated her like crap) led to a LOT of people who stopped coming to church as frequently as they once had, myself being one of them. Now that he's gone, and we've had much nicer priests in charge, I've seen familiar faces return heh.

I remember being in youth group in the late 90s/early 00s and some members who had left the church became "born again" in a more fundie church visited us and gave us a very terrifying sermon about how we had to repent our sins because we could die "any time, even tonight" and we had to have a clear conscience to enter heaven or something like that. Needless to say, it freaked a lot of kids out and the executive board made sure they didn't come back.

Some parishioners HAVE started showing more fundie-esque tendencies, but it hasn't affected our Sunday service. It comes up in other parts - when my mom used to run the Sunday School, one of the parents was extremely wealthy and would always donate movies and books to the Sunday School, including some to give as gifts to the graduates. My mom refused the graduation gifts because she said they were inappropriate. I think it was a fundie version of the life of Christ and how it relates to modern day life. She kept saying it had nothing to do with what the kids were taught in Sunday School and she didn't want to be distributing them. She politely told him to stop giving things like that to the Sunday School and he stopped.

I hope that made sense hahahaha. I do agree with the Catholic Church becoming more conservative though (my dad and his family are Catholic and I definitely see it)!